Vintage Veloce
Well-known member
I just bumped into yet another thread started by someone who has a concrete job that was done badly.
I'm no expert, but I've had a couple garage foundations done and a few driveways. It's a big problem for a person new to the process, they just do not understand how unforgiving concrete installations are.
Most of a building's other work, like framing or electrical is easily changed if a mistake is made. But once that concrete is poured and hard... it's a real problem to fix.
The math for the typical home contractor often makes it financially impossible for them to actually fix significant concrete problems, and they will walk away before making the situation right. For example, you may pay $5000 to your contractor for a concrete job, and then he pays for the digging and surface prep, the forming, the concrete, the concrete finishers. At the end maybe he makes $1000... and if it goes wrong what is he supposed to do? The buyer will want him to tear it out and do it again, but tearing it out will cost him $4000, all his profit plus what he has to pay his subcontractors and material costs, and so he would lose that $4k PLUS all the time he would be billing for the next job. If he walks away he is way better off financially.
So what does a buyer have to do to get be assured of good concrete work? It's a hard problem. Here is my advice for anyone about to build a garage:
1) Search this forum and read about a couple concrete disasters. Understand how it can all go wrong.
2) Make sure your contractor understands exactly what you expect. Slope, flatness, finish, thickness, drainage, etc. There's lots more. Show the contractor your 8-ft level. Really. More on that level later...
3) Make a contract with your contractor that assures that you pay no more than $1000 or 10% (whichever is lower!) until the job is complete to your satisfaction. This is actually the law in California. And make sure the contract states that you do not pay the remainder until the work is complete to your satisfaction and passes any required municipal building inspection. Note that in addition to this, many contracts allow the purchaser to withhold a significant percentage (5-15%) of all the funds until the entire project is complete to the purchasers satisfaction. Also, be sure there are no lien issues: read up on contractor lien releases.
4) Inspect the forms well before the concrete pour with your contractor. You need to do this with enough time left for any changes or fixes to be made before the pour. Don't do it the evening before the pour, you need more time than that. Have him show you the slope, squareness, location relative to property boundaries, etc. If you don't understand it have him explain it. Use your level to check things.
5) Be present at the concrete pour and finishing. Take the day off work and be there. Watch, and speak up loudly about anything you don't understand or looks wrong. On one job I saw a fat concrete finisher kneeling on his skis on the drying concrete as he checked his phone. He was there for quite a while, as they were waiting for the concrete to firm up a bit before the next finishing pass. Guess where there is a low spot in the floor.
6) Days later, after the saw cuts are done and the forms are removed, inspect the job before paying. I recommend buying an 8 foot level. (Have your own so your contractor can't say he "forgot" it.) Place that level all over the floor and check the flatness and slope matches your expectations. Look at everything. If the foundation is going to be inspected by a municipal building inspector, that must happen before paying too.
7) Your concrete is unlikely to be perfect. You need to be reasonable and pay for OK work. But if there is a substantial problem, DON'T PAY until the contractor fixes it.
Frankly, not paying is really hard. I have stood there with a concrete finisher demanding payment and had to tell him I was unhappy. I reminded him our discussions when he quoted the job and I pointed to the problem and how the result was clearly not what we discussed. It was salvageable, but not at all what we had agreed. Frankly, this finisher was just an average guy, and his team were clearly not wealthy people. Eventually, I managed to get him to admit the result was not what we had discussed. I paid him half and fixed the remaining issues myself.
Over and over we see posts on this forum of concrete work gone bad, and then we find out the owner has already payed for the work and has no leverage to get the problem fixed without going to court. And we all know going to court is a lousy solution. No matter how much you "like" your contractor, it is just a dangerous situation to pay for concrete before it is completed and inspected.
I know in many areas of the country contractors are accustomed to being paid a significant portion of the job "up front". And they have ways to justify up front payments. But in my opinion, especially with concrete, this is way too risky. Don't do it.
I'm no expert, but I've had a couple garage foundations done and a few driveways. It's a big problem for a person new to the process, they just do not understand how unforgiving concrete installations are.
Most of a building's other work, like framing or electrical is easily changed if a mistake is made. But once that concrete is poured and hard... it's a real problem to fix.
The math for the typical home contractor often makes it financially impossible for them to actually fix significant concrete problems, and they will walk away before making the situation right. For example, you may pay $5000 to your contractor for a concrete job, and then he pays for the digging and surface prep, the forming, the concrete, the concrete finishers. At the end maybe he makes $1000... and if it goes wrong what is he supposed to do? The buyer will want him to tear it out and do it again, but tearing it out will cost him $4000, all his profit plus what he has to pay his subcontractors and material costs, and so he would lose that $4k PLUS all the time he would be billing for the next job. If he walks away he is way better off financially.
So what does a buyer have to do to get be assured of good concrete work? It's a hard problem. Here is my advice for anyone about to build a garage:
1) Search this forum and read about a couple concrete disasters. Understand how it can all go wrong.
2) Make sure your contractor understands exactly what you expect. Slope, flatness, finish, thickness, drainage, etc. There's lots more. Show the contractor your 8-ft level. Really. More on that level later...
3) Make a contract with your contractor that assures that you pay no more than $1000 or 10% (whichever is lower!) until the job is complete to your satisfaction. This is actually the law in California. And make sure the contract states that you do not pay the remainder until the work is complete to your satisfaction and passes any required municipal building inspection. Note that in addition to this, many contracts allow the purchaser to withhold a significant percentage (5-15%) of all the funds until the entire project is complete to the purchasers satisfaction. Also, be sure there are no lien issues: read up on contractor lien releases.
4) Inspect the forms well before the concrete pour with your contractor. You need to do this with enough time left for any changes or fixes to be made before the pour. Don't do it the evening before the pour, you need more time than that. Have him show you the slope, squareness, location relative to property boundaries, etc. If you don't understand it have him explain it. Use your level to check things.
5) Be present at the concrete pour and finishing. Take the day off work and be there. Watch, and speak up loudly about anything you don't understand or looks wrong. On one job I saw a fat concrete finisher kneeling on his skis on the drying concrete as he checked his phone. He was there for quite a while, as they were waiting for the concrete to firm up a bit before the next finishing pass. Guess where there is a low spot in the floor.
6) Days later, after the saw cuts are done and the forms are removed, inspect the job before paying. I recommend buying an 8 foot level. (Have your own so your contractor can't say he "forgot" it.) Place that level all over the floor and check the flatness and slope matches your expectations. Look at everything. If the foundation is going to be inspected by a municipal building inspector, that must happen before paying too.
7) Your concrete is unlikely to be perfect. You need to be reasonable and pay for OK work. But if there is a substantial problem, DON'T PAY until the contractor fixes it.
Frankly, not paying is really hard. I have stood there with a concrete finisher demanding payment and had to tell him I was unhappy. I reminded him our discussions when he quoted the job and I pointed to the problem and how the result was clearly not what we discussed. It was salvageable, but not at all what we had agreed. Frankly, this finisher was just an average guy, and his team were clearly not wealthy people. Eventually, I managed to get him to admit the result was not what we had discussed. I paid him half and fixed the remaining issues myself.
Over and over we see posts on this forum of concrete work gone bad, and then we find out the owner has already payed for the work and has no leverage to get the problem fixed without going to court. And we all know going to court is a lousy solution. No matter how much you "like" your contractor, it is just a dangerous situation to pay for concrete before it is completed and inspected.
I know in many areas of the country contractors are accustomed to being paid a significant portion of the job "up front". And they have ways to justify up front payments. But in my opinion, especially with concrete, this is way too risky. Don't do it.
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