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Concrete form questions

PWC Repair

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We will be building forms for my wall this weekend. The wall is 4ft high and will be 8" thick. I have some great heavy 3/4" plywood. The plan is to screw 2x4's to the back of the plywood around the perimeter, then two verticals in the middle which will leave about 30" in between them. DO I NEED 3 VERTICALS INSTEAD? Then we plan to use 3/8 all-thread/nuts/washers to keep the forms from spreading. WILL 12 TIES ON EACH 4X8 BE ENOUGH TO KEEP IT FROM SPREADING? Obviiously we will also be blocking the bottom and bracing it.
 
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Cyberbear

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I've never attempted a project of this sort but your plan sounds pretty good. I've never seen rebar used to stop form spreading, but they make sheet metal straps that do the same thing, where you only need to bend the ends over and break them off after the pour has set up before removing the ply walls. Perhaps some other forum members can chime in...
 

69gp

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We will be building forms for my wall this weekend. The wall is 4ft high and will be 8" thick. I have some great heavy 3/4" plywood. The plan is to screw 2x4's to the back of the plywood around the perimeter, then two verticals in the middle which will leave about 30" in between them. DO I NEED 3 VERTICALS INSTEAD? Then we plan to use 3/8 all-thread/nuts/washers to keep the forms from spreading. WILL 12 TIES ON EACH 4X8 BE ENOUGH TO KEEP IT FROM SPREADING? Obviiously we will also be blocking the bottom and bracing it.

I would go with the uprights 24"minimum but 16" on center would be better. Make sure the 2x4 is on edge and not laying flat on the wide side. If you vibrate the wall just be careful because that will put a lot more pressure on the wall. Not sure how long the wall is going to be but what I have done before is to use 3/4" pvc cut to the width of the wall in your case 8" install in the wall and slide your rod through. this way you can tighten the wall up so its not as flimsy. After stripping the wall you can grout the hole from the pvc. The more up rights the stronger the form will be. If you go the 30" I think you might have bows in between them.
 
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brycez28

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If you vibrate the wall just be careful because that will put a lot more pressure on the wall.

I second this, from experience! Did a 3' high wall, 6-8" thick and ran the ********. Pushed out the bottom of the form and moved the stakes we had in the ground a good 3-4" before we realized what was happening.
 

Tronyadorable

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Go buy a box of snap ties and be done with it ?
You'll need to go to a real building materials house. The Bloze Despots and other nonsense will be clueless. Get a jug of form release while you're there.
937454931_067.jpg
 
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ddawg16

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You can buy the ties....they come in different lengths.

When your done you just break off the tie at the surface.
 
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PWC Repair

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Thanks everybody so far. Just called and checked everywhere at lunch. The only place here in town that even has the snap ties is the concrete plant and they don't have any wedges or clips to go with them....DUH. 2 local rental companies don't have any forms or attachments for rental.
Plan right now is to screw 2x4's (on edge) at 2 ft spacing and run four rows of three all-thread rod with large washers and nuts. I'm also thinking drilling holes in the footer (3 per each 4x8) and pinning will keep the bottom in place. Maybe concrete nails would also work for this?

Also thinking just spading the walls and not using a vibratory tool. Might be a safer bet.
 
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Chris705

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PWC using 2x cleats at the bottom and using heavy tap-con screws to attach to your footing would work.....also you can run your vertical 2x4's long and secure a foot above top of form with a cross 2x to limit needing all tread ties up high.....I think everyone just want the pour to be safe. Lots of outward pressure with a four foot pour.
 

JCfreak

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Livingston, Tx
16" o.c.. Use a 3/16 hammer drill bit, 16 penny duplex nails and wire to hold form to footer. Drill hole, place wire into hole, drive nail down hole. I'd nail on 16" centers. Nail cleats across your tops at 4' o.c.

We use a lot of 14" timber screws instead of Ties. We pull the screws late in the day or first thing the next.

I would put a brace at 2' and run your All thread through it. As close as possible to the vertical studs.

You might ask if the concrete supplier has pencil rod. It is easy to work with and uses different clips to clamp the wire.
 

6768rogues

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I also recommend snap ties. If you are set on all-thread, do as a previous person posted and put it in PVC pipe. You don't want the ends of the cut off rods rusting forever in your walls.
 

pstnbly

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I would go with the uprights 24"minimum but 16" on center would be better. Make sure the 2x4 is on edge and not laying flat on the wide side. If you vibrate the wall just be careful because that will put a lot more pressure on the wall. Not sure how long the wall is going to be but what I have done before is to use 3/4" pvc cut to the width of the wall in your case 8" install in the wall and slide your rod through. this way you can tighten the wall up so its not as flimsy. After stripping the wall you can grout the hole from the pvc. The more up rights the stronger the form will be. If you go the 30" I think you might have bows in between them.

Agreed, but my minimum would be 16" centers for whalers ( studs ) and ties ( all thread ) and must be tied at the very bottom, for this I use perforated steel band strap (available at concrete supply ). Overbuild your forms, when you think you've built them beefy enough, you haven't. If you don't use snap ties use the perf band it is very strong and easy to work with. Just be aware an 8" pour exerts more pressure on the forms than a 12" pour due to what is called the angle of repose and 1yd is greater than 3000lbs. I cannot stress enough how much pressure will be on those forms.
 

hoho98925

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Agreed, but my minimum would be 16" centers for whalers ( studs ) and ties ( all thread ) and must be tied at the very bottom, for this I use perforated steel band strap (available at concrete supply ). Overbuild your forms, when you think you've built them beefy enough, you haven't. If you don't use snap ties use the perf band it is very strong and easy to work with. Just be aware an 8" pour exerts more pressure on the forms than a 12" pour due to what is called the angle of repose and 1yd is greater than 3000lbs. I cannot stress enough how much pressure will be on those forms.

Pstnbly, I hate to call you out on this but you are wrong, the angle of repose has no bearing on liquid, concrete is in a liquid state when placed. Concrete exerts a force of 150 psf per cubic foot on formwork, meaning a concrete wall 4' tall placed at the rate of 4' an hour exerts a pressure of 600 psf at the bottom of the formwork. If you slowed the pour down to 2 feet an hour the pressure would only be 300 Psf. Also the thickness of the wall has no bearing on the pressure exerted on the formwork of a vertical pour. It does not matter if the wall is 6" or 2' thick the liquid pressure pushes equally down and to the sides at 150 psf Per foot of height as a rule.
 

dogdas

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You should have rented the forms if there is a place by you that does it.
 

pstnbly

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Pstnbly, I hate to call you out on this but you are wrong, the angle of repose has no bearing on liquid, concrete is in a liquid state when placed. Concrete exerts a force of 150 psf per cubic foot on formwork, meaning a concrete wall 4' tall placed at the rate of 4' an hour exerts a pressure of 600 psf at the bottom of the formwork. If you slowed the pour down to 2 feet an hour the pressure would only be 300 Psf. Also the thickness of the wall has no bearing on the pressure exerted on the formwork of a vertical pour. It does not matter if the wall is 6" or 2' thick the liquid pressure pushes equally down and to the sides at 150 psf Per foot of height as a rule.

So you are trying to tell me that the force exerted on lets say an 8" pour 4' high at the bottom of the form is the same as the force exerted at the bottom of a 24" x 4' pour and that the angle of repose has no bearing on that. You must have read that in some book I don't know about. Have you ever heard of a slump test? If the angle of repose had no bearing on concrete a slump cone would be irrelevant. As someone who has been placing concrete for 40yrs I will tell you that's wrong, concrete in its liquid state is not a pure fluid as the aggregate plays a part. And the aggregate based on the sharpness ( faceting ) and size affects the angle of repose.
 

hoho98925

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So you are trying to tell me that the force exerted on lets say an 8" pour 4' high at the bottom of the form is the same as the force exerted at the bottom of a 24" x 4' pour and that the angle of repose has no bearing on that. You must have read that in some book I don't know about. Have you ever heard of a slump test? If the angle of repose had no bearing on concrete a slump cone would be irrelevant. As someone who has been placing concrete for 40yrs I will tell you that's wrong, concrete in its liquid state is not a pure fluid as the aggregate plays a part. And the aggregate based on the sharpness ( faceting ) and size affects the angle of repose.

That's what I'm telling you. The only time concrete thickness comes into play is when you are pouring a one sided form against a slope. The slope causes the concrete to move more horizontally causing more form pressure, verses straight down as in a form. Once again this is hydrostatic pressure we are talking about.

As for "hearing of a slump test" a cone test measures the fluidity of concrete, again we are dealing with liquid pressure. The slump cone is just a standerization method for measuring concrete wetness- again hydrostatic pressure.

You would be very hard pressed trying to find any mention of " angle of repose" in any concrete literature. Anything you may find will be referring to dry granular material, not concrete.

As for my experience, I am a structural concrete superintendent with 30 years experience with some of the most complex concrete structures in the Pacific Northwest, as well as a member of the American Concrete Institute. In a slow year I would still have placed 10,000 yards of concrete.
And I am writing a book on the subject.
 
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PWC Repair

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Thanks everybody for the input. We set it up as I said with upright whalers 2ft oc and 12 pcs all thread on each 4x8. Also added a 2x2 along the top outer edge for built in rat gaurd and water runoff. Concrete nails every 2ft held the forms to the footer. Pour went without any problem at all and we spaded and beat the forms. Still ended up with little air pockets here and there around pieces of gravel but no honeycombing and no bowing, just a good straight wall. I feel like if the concrete was wetter we would have avoided the air pockets all together but we just didn't know how it was going to go.......better safe than sorry. SO, 48ft wall is done and the two 30ft walls are next and should come out nicer now that we know our forms will hold up just fine.
 
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