To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Concrete Pad Question

speedracerfx

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 25, 2018
Messages
96
Location
Douglassville, PA
So I'm building one of those enclosed carport type buildings (840sqft), and the drawings from the manufacturer show a monolithic pad for the foundation. Basically a 4" (I've upped it to 5" for the actual build) pad with 12"x12" integrated "footers." I'm in PA, so I have to worry about frost expansion, and by code, my footers need to be 30" below grade. My concrete guy is suggesting to pour the pad as shown on their drawings, and use piers to the frost line instead of a full perimeter footer. Does that sound like a reasonable plan? Or is that a recipe for future troubles?
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Smokeem

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 29, 2013
Messages
176
Check with your local building department if this has to be inspected. If not I will give you my opinion as this is my field I work in(Certified IRC/IBC Inspector). In my jurisdiction I would require the turned down footings to go below frost depth as the building is over the 600 sq ft. Code does say that accessory building under 600 sq ft do not have to be frost protected. These are engineered building and we have to follow what the engineers have designed for the slab. You could talk with the company and see if they have any alternate footing details using piers.


Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app
 
OP
S

speedracerfx

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 25, 2018
Messages
96
Location
Douglassville, PA
It would have to be inspected. I have a building permit for the project, and it requires a footers inspection. I did ask the township code officer if this was a code compliant method, and he said yes, as long as the piers extend 30" below grade.
 

ConCretin

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2011
Messages
3,378
Location
Central Maine
You obviously have to comply with local codes but anyone who thinks a slab with piers or turned down edges is frost protected is fooling themselves. What, the cold isn't going to penetrate 4" of concrete slab and freeze the soil underneath?

So your local inspector is going to require 30" piers that may or may not move with the frost under a slab that most likely will. Is a perimeter grade beam required to transfer the load back to the piers or are we just going to throw a few piers under a 4 or 5" slab?

Honestly, you are far better off sticking with a mono-slab as the building manufacturer suggests that 'floats' on the frost. If there is any room for common sense in your codes and/or with the inspector, you'll be able to get them to sign off.
 
OP
S

speedracerfx

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 25, 2018
Messages
96
Location
Douglassville, PA
The pad isn't being poured directly over the dirt. There's a 6" stone bed below it as well. The idea was to use piers around the perimeter as opposed to a continuous footer. Unfortunately, I don't have a choice. Per the township code, I have to have footers to the frost line. The question is, a continuous footer or piers, which am I better off with?
 

ConCretin

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2011
Messages
3,378
Location
Central Maine
The question is, a continuous footer or piers, which am I better off with?

Unfortunately, there's no simple answer to your question.

By footing, I assume you mean a thickened slab edge that extends 30" below finish grade. If we assume a minimal 6" of exposure, you will be forming a 36" deep slab edge. Since concrete exerts 150 psf of pressure for every foot of depth, your forms will need to resist 450 psf at the bottom i.e. they will need to be pretty stout.

In addition, the haunch itself will eat up a lot of concrete. If we assume a 45 degree slope and a 12" wide haunch, it will take something like 1/4 cy of concrete per running foot over and above the 5" slab itself .

On the other hand, someone - probably an engineer - is going to have to determine how many piers you need and what type of grade beam will be needed to span between them. The piers themselves will require several additional operations to excavate, form, reinforce, place and backfill. You'll still need a thickened slab edge to act as the aforementioned grade beam.

At the end of the day, it really depends on how your contractor prices the work. I would opt for the footer (thickened edge) and my guess is that it would be less expensive. I don't like the idea of 'frost protected' piers connected to a slab that isn't.

If you want to spring for some rigid insulation under everything to keep the frost out entirely, then it's a moot point. Since we are on the subject, maybe ask the inspector if the code permits a 'frost protected shallow foundation'. That might be the best option of all if it's approved.
 

Smokeem

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 29, 2013
Messages
176
I think you answered your question when you said township requires footers to frost line. Footings would be continuous where piers would not be. If the plans are like a lot that I see over me deal the footing details are pretty cut and dry as to what you can do. Only thing I will let slide is the main “carport” building we see around here call for 3 #4 bars in the turned down footing where code only calls for either 2 #4 vertical or 1 #5 in the midpoint. I will let them do 2 instead of 3. The building we see around here are so much lighter than a stick frame and I think the foundation plans are very over built to make them issuable for all seismic areas.


Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app
 

joey1320

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 14, 2015
Messages
1,813
Location
NE Ohio
I'm currently talking with a local company for a 22'x36' metal garage and due to the insane cost of concrete work around me, I'm leaning towards using the concrete piers (3' deep) and then worrying about the concrete at some other time.

The company is not All Steel Carports, it's a different one. They just used the price sheet on their site.

Maybe see if the county/company allow this to be used.

Their price sheet shows the piers.
Ohio%20Comercial%20Back.webp
 

Smokeem

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 29, 2013
Messages
176
Joey1320 I have inspected one around here that had sono tubes installed at the bolt locations on each side that were installed 3’ deep. This one was just sitting on dirt and did not have a concrete slab.


Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app
 
OP
S

speedracerfx

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 25, 2018
Messages
96
Location
Douglassville, PA
Update:

My concrete guy was suggesting the piers to try and save me some money. The cost difference between piers and a continuous footing isn't much though. So now my question becomes, can I pour a monolithic pad/footings or do the footings and pad have to be separate pours?
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Loose Nut Buster

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 6, 2020
Messages
117
Location
Near my house in Houghton Lake MI
I live in northern MI and we're required to be 48" on footings. I personally believe that the footing be seperate from the slab therefore letting the slab (with saw cut sections) move independently, with mine ...I laid 3 courses of block since I wanted 10' walls on my garage. On my lean-to code said 48" deep holes with 6" of crete in the bottoms, I added 1" of stone atop that just so the posts weren't in contact with the crete and moisture to cause rot in time, treated 6×6 posts.
Lean to is 12x24 ISD. Changed from flourescent to LED, simply amazing, now to get the ceiling finished. 59efe8fbd76943fba6724a9ac1f83dce.jpg3303294305f63442ffca8414c5a55b00.jpge23fb361c63a4762506f59b49792edb4.jpgc13e77dba4a175b1a1489c12486baf48.jpg

Sent from my SM-T387V using Tapatalk
 

Attachments

  • 59efe8fbd76943fba6724a9ac1f83dce.jpg
    59efe8fbd76943fba6724a9ac1f83dce.jpg
    488.9 KB · Views: 0
  • 3303294305f63442ffca8414c5a55b00.jpg
    3303294305f63442ffca8414c5a55b00.jpg
    445.8 KB · Views: 0
  • e23fb361c63a4762506f59b49792edb4.jpg
    e23fb361c63a4762506f59b49792edb4.jpg
    489.9 KB · Views: 0
  • c13e77dba4a175b1a1489c12486baf48.jpg
    c13e77dba4a175b1a1489c12486baf48.jpg
    558.7 KB · Views: 0

ConCretin

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2011
Messages
3,378
Location
Central Maine
So now my question becomes, can I pour a monolithic pad/footings or do the footings and pad have to be separate pours?

That may be a question for your inspector. Either method is fine. If they are making you go down 30", you have a few options as I see it;

#1 - Place a monolithic slab with a 30" deep thickened edge.

#2 - Dig a 30" deep trench, fill it with concrete' Form and place the slab over the top.

#3 - Dig a wider trench. Form and place a 36"+ deep footer, backfill and place the slab within.

#4 - The pier option, whatever that is.

The cost of these options will vary with the contractor. Normally I'd opt for the mono-slab every time but it's less practical with such deep edges. Option 2 would be less expensive than option 3 and might be your best bet if it's approved by the town. Option 3 is ideal because it allows the slab to 'float' inside the foundation but it's absolutely necessary for a small structure and probably isn't worth the cost.
 

Firebrick43

Well-known member
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
13,973
Location
West central Indiana
Have you asked about a shallow frost protected foundation? It’s just a shallow monolithic foundation with xps foam under it and some wings of foam extending 3 or 4’ out to protect from the frost creeping under. It’s very common in Scandinavia and even areas of Alaska.

I personally would not do an unheated monolithic foundation without clean and compacted crushed stone at least 12” thick or foam. Otherwise I would do a separate frost wall with a floating slab completely uncoupled from the walls. I have seen several unheated buildings damaged by frost heave of a coupled slab.

You are asking a lot of good questions. And it’s good that your using z clips to a properly sized slab.
 
OP
S

speedracerfx

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 25, 2018
Messages
96
Location
Douglassville, PA
First, a huge thank you to everyone for their input thus far. It is GREATLY appreciated.


A shallow frost protected foundation is only allowed if the building will be heated to a minimum of 64 degrees year round. My building will not be heated. Unless I'm just not understanding the code correctly.

My township uses the International Residential Code. https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/IRC2015/chapter-4-foundations
Under 403.1.4.1 Except where otherwise protected from frost, foundation walls, piers and other permanent supports of buildings and structures shall be protected from frost by one or more of the following methods:

Extended below the frost line specified in Table R301.2.(1).
Constructed in accordance with Section R403.3.
Constructed in accordance with ASCE 32.
Erected on solid rock.


Looking at R403.3:
For buildings where the monthly mean temperature of the building is maintained at a minimum of 64°F (18°C), footings are not required to extend below the frost line when protected from frost by insulation in accordance with Figure R403.3(1) and Table R403.3(1). Foundations protected from frost in accordance with Figure R403.3(1) and Table R403.3(1) shall not be used for unheated spaces such as porches, utility rooms, garages and carports, and shall not be attached to basements or crawl spaces that are not maintained at a minimum monthly mean temperature of 64°F (18°C).
 

brownbagg

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 20, 2006
Messages
5,208
the purpose of the frost debt is so, the freezing of the ground wont pick up the slab, but I have seen mats, that be a thicken slab with no footer, like a foot thick slab that just float on top. maybe your area will except that. usually just on a shed,light bldg or pole barn, its exceptable. just do a pole barn, did you would not need footer
 

Firebrick43

Well-known member
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
13,973
Location
West central Indiana
https://www.homeinnovation.com/~/media/Files/Reports/Revised-Builders-Guide-to-Frost-Protected-Shallow-Foundations.pdf

Page 17 lays out how to on an unheated building.
Page one references ASCE 32


HUD has a guide with the same info. See page 10

https://www.huduser.gov/publications/pdf/fpsfguide.pdf


Under the ICC 403.1.4.1 frost protection #3
“Constructed in accordance with ASCE 32”
which is actually 32-01 but whatever.

Unfortunately ASCE 32-01 requires payment (think a pdf download is 40$ ish but maybe wrong)and they have been good with keeping locked down but it’s the same info listed in the links above.
 
Last edited:
OP
S

speedracerfx

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 25, 2018
Messages
96
Location
Douglassville, PA
I see. So a frost protected shallow foundation is covered by ASCE 32, so if i build in accordance to that, I'm good. Looks like I have some more reading to do tomorrow when I'm more sober. lol. Thank you!
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
Top Bottom