Concrete Ribbon Driveway

[scootermcrad]

Hey everyone! I haven't posted in awhile. Good to log back on and look around!

We have decided on some major changes related to the timing of our garage addition (still planning that part), including a complete driveway reconfiguration and a desperately needed porte-cochore for those downpour days!

My wife and I love ribbon driveways and it's era appropriate for our home. We're doing a circle driveway and it will be the primary drive. Before I run off and get quotes, I want to educate myself a bit. My major concern will be the UPS and FedEx trucks using our driveway (which they will). Any thoughts on "ribbon" widths and track spacing to accommodate a delivery truck using the driveway? How about slab depth and ground prep considerations?

24" to 36" slab width seems to be common. I'm thinking I can comfortably get away with an even 30" width and was thinking a 5" slab should be okay, but I'm not a concrete expert. Should it be steel reinforced, or do driveways just get a higher psi mix?

Anything else to consider here? Any input from the concrete pros would be appreciated!

Thanks guys!
Scott

 

[Docbentley]

Doesn’t matter how wide those ribbons are....trucks and cars will find a way to get off them

 

[PT Doc]

Decorative Boulders or columns on either side to keep people on the driveway.

 

[AP514]

I would have Rebar reinforced ...but that is just me..not a concrete guy/expert

 

[Pluribus]

You could build those ribbons with a single tire width between them and ten feet wide for each side, and people will STILL drive off the sides by a foot. That's for straight runs. If there's any radius involved, make it two feet. I'm sure there's some law or corollary of driveways, as this will always be the case.

 

[scootermcrad]

I'm probably going to use a strip of "perforated pavers" on either side of the ribbons so it doesn't tare up the lawn when someone drives off, but grass can still grow. Which I agree, someone will drive off at some point and probably many times. 30" ribbons are pretty hard to miss though.

 

[Pluribus]

I'm probably going to use a strip of "perforated pavers" on either side of the ribbons so it doesn't tare up the lawn when someone drives off, but grass can still grow. Which I agree, someone will drive off at some point and probably many times. 30" ribbons are pretty hard to miss though.

Excellent plan on using the perforated pavers on the outside (and maybe inside too?)

 

[Radix2]

If you are going to go to the trouble of perforated pavers...might as well do it all with pavers. Build the base, lay out solid or perforated as desired.

 

[wssix99]

24" to 36" slab width seems to be common. I'm thinking I can comfortably get away with an even 30" width and was thinking a 5" slab should be okay, but I'm not a concrete expert. Should it be steel reinforced, or do driveways just get a higher psi mix?

Engineering wise, the way rebar is typically used in most slabs, it only acts to help control cracking. Since you would be putting in saw cut or tooled joints regularly (like a sidewalk), this should not be a concern for you. If you put in some mesh mid-depth, that might help make sure your sections all stay together across those tooled joints when they crack (as designed) at those locations.

The compressive strength is generally a function of the cement content of the concrete. (The hither the cement content and strength, the more expensive the concrete.) In driveways, folks often go higher because it makes for a smoother/nicer finish. Many folks I've met like to go with regular 3000 psi concrete for outdoor slabs since the rougher texture is just fine for driveways.

A delivery truck sitting still will put less than 20 psi of force downward on the slab - so you have nothing to worry about there; even with a thin slab.


If you look at sidewalks and many short driveways, you'll notice that they are around 3" thick. Then, if you look at concrete highways, they can be 8" or thicker. The difference is the stress that vehicles put on them when moving at speed. Your base also makes a big difference.

If you are going to put a well compacted stone base under your ribbons and if vehicles will be traveling under 5 mph, then you can go thin. If you won't be doing a lot of soil/base work, and trucks may be speeding around at 15-20 mph, then it might make sense to go thicker.

 

[n20junkie]

I have a curved driveway, my father has a curved driveway.



The mess cars make when they drive off the things on a rainy night is wonderful to fix every year.


Never, ever, order a pizza.

 

[ard]

There are some geotechnical products along the lines of perforated pavers that will allow grass to grow up through but protect the root zone from compaction. my recollection is that it isn't the tires ON the grass that kills it- it is the pressure compacting the root zone.

There is utterly no way I would ever consider this for my main drive. Secondary drives, off to other buildings, a guest house- perhaps.

GL

 

[scootermcrad]

Thanks for everyone's input, here. It's appreciated!

I understand the pitfalls of ribbon driveways and everything that comes along with them. Our house is an old historic home. It too has it's pitfalls. Like old homes, ribbon driveways are not for everyone. I certainly didn't expect raving reviews of ribbon driveways and I absolutely expected opinions on why NOT to install one. Again, all is appreciated!

For us, old homes and old style driveways are just the way we like it. They have the aesthetic and character that we desire. Proper planning for the idiots that drive up and around the driveway is why I started the thread. There are always going to be "oopsies" and idiots making the oopsies, but that's okay. They'll get fixed. We don't get a lot of traffic up our driveway now (we live in the country, sorta') and nobody delivers good pizza out here anyway. HA!

We have talked about doing street pavers (real ones!) up the middle to help with some of the oopsies that may occur. When I was growing up, my Dad had piled up heavy street pavers from our local streets when they redid the roads and made us a beautiful driveway. We may pull from that concept and incorporate some of that into the drive. If not the middle, maybe just the entry points. I can get these EXACT style bricks from the town I grew up in who now recycle and sell the pavers:

Historic Pavers

For the ribbons, we like the rougher texture. Maybe even a washed-down texture to expose the aggregate a bit, so it will have a slight aged look to it. So I suppose a reinforced 3000 psi pour, slightly thicker, will be the better solution.

Seems like I might even be able to get away with 24" wide ribbons, if I use the street pavers or perf-pavers to help with "oopsies". 30" is probably a better solution, though.

Thanks everyone for your input! Again, I know these driveways aren't for everyone.

S

 

[scootermcrad]

This is definitely what we are going for...

 

[ard]

On the plus side, you dont need any catch basin for the used motor oil!

 

[scootermcrad]

On the plus side, you dont need any catch basin for the used motor oil!

I'd be lying if said I wasn't thinking the same thing. HAHA!

 

[bczygan]

Ribbon drives are great for straight shots, and you can use eco or turf pavers for the middle portion so it has grass but a firm support.

They don't work for circular drives so well, especially if the radius is anything but very large. Take a look at the tracks a vehicle makes on a turn.

Bill

 

[Capt J-rod]

I would put a serious base under the center and then add 5-6" of topsoil and grass. We have quite a few "grass" lanes that have 12" of base from years ago that don't go anywhere. Also what about some astro-turf for the center over some concrete? You get the look without the maintenance... You wouldn't need much for the center.

 

[captaindiode]

Here is a video from This Old House showing the turf pavers that were mentioned that allow you to drive over the grass without killing it.

 

[scootermcrad]

Here is a video from This Old House showing the turf pavers that were mentioned that allow you to drive over the grass without killing it.

YEP! Those the "pavers" I was talking about, right there. A buddy of mine built a garage in his backyard and didn't want to see the drive at all, so he put those down. You literally cannot see them now that the grass has matured and he just mows it like normal.

 

[bczygan]

https://www.bigfrogsupply.com/products/tt-24?utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Shopping-feed&utm_term=Home&utm_source=googleShopping+%28via+Shopping+Feed%29

 

[CraigStu]

When you say circle what exactly do you mean? The driveway in your post#13 is straight w/ a larger pad where all the turning and backing etc will be done. As kid we once lived in a house w/ a corner lot. The driveway was a big "L". The legs were straight and there was a large square at the garage. Could you adapt something so you have straight legs?

 

[scootermcrad]

https://www.bigfrogsupply.com/products/tt-24?utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Shopping-feed&utm_term=Home&utm_source=googleShopping+%28via+Shopping+Feed%29

Thanks for the link! So about $6.25 per square foot (for planning purposes).

I would say make the grass strip 24" between ribbons, but with 30" wide ribbons, that would only give me a 84" wide drive. If I increased that center width to 36", to push the tread width out, that would give ma a 96" wide drive. That seems excessively wide, but I'm going to guess closer to what current codes would like to see. And that would mean finding those grass pavers in something 12" wide or cutting them (which would be fun).

EDIT: Found a cheaper source on a quick Google search...
https://www.landscapediscount.com/N...MIwI2l2rzz1wIVXFcNCh0yjQSzEAYYASABEgKx2vD_BwE

 

[scootermcrad]

When you say circle what exactly do you mean? The driveway in your post#13 is straight w/ a larger pad where all the turning and backing etc will be done. As kid we once lived in a house w/ a corner lot. The driveway was a big "L". The legs were straight and there was a large square at the garage. Could you adapt something so you have straight legs?

Sorry! Didn't mean to be misleading. I was mostly referring to the style in those pictures.

For clarification, the main run of the drive that we would use on a daily basis and for 90% of our traffic, would be basically straight all the way up to the left side of the house (about 75-feet or so). This leads to a paved portion behind our home where there is room to turn around.

There will be an additional portion that starts from the right side of the property that will curve around the front of the home and meet the straight portion. I maybe shouldn't have used the term "circle". All intensive purposes, a lower case "h" or "n"looking from the sky. Not really any super tight radii in the layout. Just one sweeping curve.

The entry portions from the left side and right side will be fully paved or pavers, similar to the pictures I posted. The area where the "circle" meets the straight portion will also be fully paved or surrounded by pavers, in the event that someone does try to use the junction as a turn-around area.

Basically, there shouldn't be any reason for anyone to back down this long driveway.

 

[scootermcrad]

Here's a quick concept sketch I did that better shows what's going on here. Hopefully the lines make sense on what's house and what's driveway.

 

[Radix2]

Thanks for the link! So about $6.25 per square foot (for planning purposes).

I would say make the grass strip 24" between ribbons, but with 30" wide ribbons, that would only give me a 84" wide drive. If I increased that center width to 36", to push the tread width out, that would give ma a 96" wide drive. That seems excessively wide, but I'm going to guess closer to what current codes would like to see. And that would mean finding those grass pavers in something 12" wide or cutting them (which would be fun).

EDIT: Found a cheaper source on a quick Google search...
https://www.landscapediscount.com/N...MIwI2l2rzz1wIVXFcNCh0yjQSzEAYYASABEgKx2vD_BwE

8 feet is not an excessively wide driveway- a regular pickup is about 80" across the tires. 8 in on each side is extremely narrow. A typical narrow driveway would be 9-10 feet. One foot beyond the tires seems minimal, that would be at least 104" for common vehicles. With the track error, etc, trying to do a curve with a 96" wide driveway would mean pretty much every vehicle will drive off the pavement imo.

Just about any supplier of pavers will have a concrete version of your grass pavers, I believe even menards carries them, you should be way below $6/ft2

Yep - https://www.menards.com/main/buildi...14-c-5786.htm?tid=-6288754833945406797&ipos=1

About $2.30/ft2

 

[scootermcrad]

8 feet is not an excessively wide driveway- a regular pickup is about 80" across the tires. 8 in on each side is extremely narrow. A typical narrow driveway would be 9-10 feet. One foot beyond the tires seems minimal, that would be at least 104" for common vehicles. With the track error, etc, trying to do a curve with a 96" wide driveway would mean pretty much every vehicle will drive off the pavement imo.

Just about any supplier of pavers will have a concrete version of your grass pavers, I believe even menards carries them, you should be way below $6/ft2

Yep - https://www.menards.com/main/buildi...14-c-5786.htm?tid=-6288754833945406797&ipos=1

About $2.30/ft2

Yep! The more I stared at the dimensions the more I realized how narrow that actually is. in fact, 36" on the tread ribbons AND the center grass would probably make it a nicely proportioned driveway and plenty usable.

I like the "invisible" type grass pavers better, I think. Gives me the ground support I need and still have that clean grass strip up the middle. HOWEVER... I have seen some really nice ribbon driveways done with the concrete grass pavers in the middle strip with the grass coming through and it also looks very nice. Worth considering and I agree, they are very available.

 

[Radix2]

Yep! The more I stared at the dimensions the more I realized how narrow that actually is. in fact, 36" on the tread ribbons AND the center grass would probably make it a nicely proportioned driveway and plenty usable.

I like the "invisible" type grass pavers better, I think. Gives me the ground support I need and still have that clean grass strip up the middle. HOWEVER... I have seen some really nice ribbon driveways done with the concrete grass pavers in the middle strip with the grass coming through and it also looks very nice. Worth considering and I agree, they are very available.

The other thing that strikes me, is that I see it as more likely that people will drive off the edges than they will drive in the middle.. so if you are not going to reinforce the outside, I don't see any reason to do the inside.

Is your soil clay based ? We have sandy soil here, there is really no big issue of driving on grass, even when wet. Very different in deep topsoil or clay. I have also found that grass grows very nicely in crushed limestone with just a bit of compost on top, this is a stable surface for occasional driving and another way to reinforce the areas beyond the paving.

 

[scootermcrad]

The other thing that strikes me, is that I see it as more likely that people will drive off the edges than they will drive in the middle.. so if you are not going to reinforce the outside, I don't see any reason to do the inside.

Is your soil clay based ? We have sandy soil here, there is really no big issue of driving on grass, even when wet. Very different in deep topsoil or clay. I have also found that grass grows very nicely in crushed limestone with just a bit of compost on top, this is a stable surface for occasional driving and another way to reinforce the areas beyond the paving.

Very good point, and I agree! I'm planning to do a strip of those "invisible" grass pavers on each outside edge. It's probably not as much of an issue on the straight section as it would be on the curved portion, I agree something should be considered.

We are clay based. Such a PITA to dig.

 

[gfd_703]

I like your plan but just plan for people to do what people do. Anything they want...My front drive is 30 ft wide and 120 ft long. My Mother in law and step son both turn around on the drive so they don't have to back out. They say it is to difficult to back out. Not only do they turn around but they also run off the drive on both sides doing it. I lost this battle.

 

[Jinks]

If you insist on doing a drive like that putting the invisible grass pavers both in the middle & each side are your only hope of having decent landscaping. I have a 24 ft. wide driveway with a 20 ft. wide "parking pad" off one side. After the drive was first installed nearly everyone cut the corners at the street & drove across the grass. I created two planting areas at the corners of the drive & the street with curbs. I planted shillings shrubs & robellini palms in them to define the corners. For the first two years, until the plants began to mature, people still hit them as they turned in. Now that the robellini are 5 to 6 ft. high, not so much.... I added the "parking pad" because everyone driving cars as small as a Smart Car parked dead center in the drive. I have two garages in an "L" shape, & they made it impossible to get any of three vehicles out without asking them to move.... Still happens some, but any regulars know to use the "pad" or get to one side.