Concrete sleeve anchors loose

[mmsheb]

I used concrete sleeve anchors when I installed an outside step railing. A year later they are loose, and I can't retighten them. I was able to remove the old anchors and wonder how to successfully redo this railing install.
The concrete sleeve anchors supplied with the HD sourced railing are 10mm. The concrete drill bit HD sold me was 7/16" which they said is what I need and would work. I believe that is the source of the problem since 7/16" is 11.1mm and therefore the hole is probably too large for the 10mm anchor and that's why they won't tighten and stay tight.
There are four anchors in each of the two railing bases.
What suggestions do you have?
Thank you!
Mike in WI

 

[WildBill]

I think matching bigger hole/anchors or concrete epoxy are the choices. I have used epoxy for stuff like that and it has held up great.

Something like this stuff - https://www.homedepot.com/p/Sika-10...t-Curing-Anchoring-Adhesive-7116160/300934591

 

[hefnerconstructionlc]

I agree reset the anchor with epoxy and leave alone. Then come back in 48 hours and tighten.

Also oftentimes I will use the ceramic coated deck screws instead of tapcons. When and i find the hole is a little bit loose , whether a tapcon or deck screw. I will stick a bit of wire in the hole and it will bind up and make a nice tight connection. I feel that tapcons are often times too hard to the point of brittle.

 

[The Cobbler]

When and i find the hole is a little bit loose , whether a tapcon or deck screw. I will stick a bit of wire in the hole and it will bind up and make a nice tight connection.

this, a pc of 14g copper wire in the side of hole does wonders

 

[BrandonV]

Epoxy.

 

[duneslider]

Or get 7/16" anchors since you used a 7/16" bit?

 

[metaleltr]

Or get 7/16" anchors since you used a 7/16" bit?

The issue there may be that the hole has been worn beyond 7/16" in the time it has taken to anchor to loosen. Epoxy should provide a more permanent solution.

 

[mmsheb]

I appreciate all the responses.
The type of sleeve anchor I have is a bolt going through the sleeve with the wedge nut expanding the sleeve as it is tightened. I don't follow how setting the sleeve in epoxy will work. Won't the epoxy fill the sleeve? And if the bolt is in the sleeve when putting in the epoxy will the bolt not also be epoxied in place and not turn?
Is epoxying a stud in the hole an option?
Am I using incorrect terminology to describe the sleeve anchor I'm using?
Thanks

 

[Hank11]

Yes, epoxy a stud in the hole.

 

[carlaisle]

Drill the holes out to 1/2" and use anchors appropriate to the new hole size. Problem solved.

 

[jack stand]

I'm partial to "hydraulic" cement, that may be an outdated term but a little 5lb box is in every lumber yard and hardware store.
Inexpensive and easy and no expanding anchoring involved.
Mix up a little at a time, fill the hole and insert the proper length bolt or all thread. Next day install your railings.

 

[mmsheb]

This is the best site. I appreciate all the suggestions. I'll review them and move forward today!
Thanks all.

 

[duneslider]

I have always had better success with wedge anchors as opposed to sleeve anchors. We use 10's of thousands of anchors a year, almost all wedge anchors. We do a lot of epoxy anchors too.

Another option would be using titan bolts, they work pretty good too.

 

[mmsheb]

OP here.
To summarize, I used a 7/16" (11.1mm) concrete drill bit to drill holes for the 10mm concrete sleeve anchor and after a year they are loose, and I can't tighten them. I removed the old anchors and asked the question here yesterday of what to do. I appreciate all the response and chose to do the following.

Today I purchased some 3/8" concrete wedge anchors and some epoxy and was ready to proceed. When I tested the fit of the wedge anchors, I was surprised that they were a tight fit in the hole and will not go in all the way and yes, the hole is deeper than the length of the anchor. I would need to tap the wedge anchor in.
My question now is will it be sufficient to tap in the wedge anchor and proceed with reinstalling the railing, or should I use the epoxy too? It appears there would be very little room for epoxy in the space around the wedge anchor if I use the epoxy.
Can I expect the wedge anchors to tighten sufficiently without using the epoxy?
Thanks in advance!
Mike in WI

 

[Hank11]

This is usually a case of one or the other, not both. So use the epoxy or use the wedge anchor. I already suggested using epoxy and a stud. The stud could simply be a piece of all thread, or it could be one of the anchor studs that you have but without the wedge.

 

[mmsheb]

Thanks, Hank11. I'm learning all the time. You can probably tell this is my first time trying this type of project and thankful there is only one railing needed at our house. Surprising to me that the all-thread was out of stock so I picked up the wedge anchors AND epoxy.
I do appreciate your reply!

 

[duneslider]

If the wedge anchors are tight and need to be hammered in they should be fine. Make sure the nut and washer is on and the nut is at the top of the bolt. Tap them down tight to the base plate then torque them down. They will pull up a little bit once you start torquing them, that is just setting the wedge. If they aren't tight going in they probably won't work and you will need to go up a size, or go the epoxy route. You don't need to go crazy torquing these down either. We usually hit them with the impact to snug them up which is usually getting it to the torque spec we need anyway, then we do random torque tests but you don't have a torque spec you are needing to hit so just snug them up tight and be done.

Nothing wrong with epoxy anchors either but there are additional steps and extra work and wait time. Most manufacturers call for the holes to be wire brushed and vacuumed out, then you set the anchor, then you have to wait until at least the next day (read the instructions) to torque anything down. Epoxy alone is more expensive than just buying top quality wedge anchors.

On my jobs we have to have special inspections for anchoring and its a pain with the epoxy anchors, they have to be there when we drill, clean and set the anchors, then we have to wait for them to be back to do a torque test/pull test when we set the material.

With wedge anchors we just have to drill with the vacuum bits, tap the anchor in and torque it down and the inspector can witness the whole process and do some torque tests immediately. They just watch a few anchors then come back whenever they want to do random testing when the job is done.

 

[Hank11]

An additional benefit of epoxy anchors is that the hole is sealed against water intrusion. Less worry about rust or freeze cracking.

 

[mmsheb]

Thanks, duneslider. I should have the information I need and hopefully the confidence I need to get this done today. Thanks for your detailed explanation.

 

[mmsheb]

Hank11. Good information I wouldn't have thought of. Thanks.

 

[Kaizen]

This is the best site. I appreciate all the suggestions. I'll review them and move forward today!
Thanks all.

ayuh.....we've all been saved by all of us. good luck.

 

[mmsheb]

OP here.
Project completed using the wedge anchors. I put the wedge anchors in place, and they tightened well. The railing is stable and I'm calling it done.
Thanks for all the suggestions. They were very helpful.
Mike in WI

 

[Beemer]

I appreciate all the responses.
The type of sleeve anchor I have is a bolt going through the sleeve with the wedge nut expanding the sleeve as it is tightened. I don't follow how setting the sleeve in epoxy will work. Won't the epoxy fill the sleeve? And if the bolt is in the sleeve when putting in the epoxy will the bolt not also be epoxied in place and not turn?
Is epoxying a stud in the hole an option?
Am I using incorrect terminology to describe the sleeve anchor I'm using?
Thanks

Get new anchor's, not sleeve, if changing to epoxy.
Many of the main anchor companies have epoxy anchors if you need to see what they make and to see technical information etc.
You may want to pay attention to the anchor material (steel grade, etc) if a particular load is needed because a threaded rod of unknown material found at the hardware or box store is probably of low capacity.

 

[mmsheb]

Beemer - Thanks for your comments. I purchased and installed new wedge anchors and project is complete. I appreciate the information about epoxy anchors but hope I do not need to do another project like this. I'm happy to be done with it. Thanks again for your post.