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Concrete thickness

fwillison

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How thick does a slab need to be to support a 2 post lift, 6 in?
What tolerance is reasonable?
My slab is supposed to be 6 in but I pulled a string level across the forms and the measurements vary from 4 to 6.5 with most falling in the 4.5 to 5 range.
 
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harleyhouser

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Feb 26, 2013
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The place i had my lift installed from told me i only needed 3.5" of concrete. It was a 10,000 pound. I see you live in Oklahoma, i do also a place called Lums equipment installed mine. They was the best price i found anywhere, they will also cut the tax if you pay in cash. They have a website but not very good one, just give em a call, real good to deal with.
 

Mystic142

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If my slab was supposed to be 6", it was formed, but not poured, I would be on the phone with the contractor right now to get it right before the trucks start rolling in.
 
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fwillison

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GC said "it's not an exact science" 5.5-6.5 inches is fine.
I said that sounds reasonable, but Im measuring 4.5 inches several broad areas. I don't think that's reasonable. What do you think?
He said if Im not happy with it they will do it over.
I don't think it's an issue of being happy. Sounds like they want to charge me to correct it.
 

brewchief

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GC said "it's not an exact science" 5.5-6.5 inches is fine.
I said that sounds reasonable, but Im measuring 4.5 inches several broad areas. I don't think that's reasonable. What do you think?
He said if Im not happy with it they will do it over.
I don't think it's an issue of being happy. Sounds like they want to charge me to correct it.


1.5" in a 6" slab is 25% off by my math, ask the GC if he will accept a check that is that far off.

I might be OK with a 1/2" variance each way in some places but not that much.

Concrete guys are going to charge you for the amount of concrete it would take to do the whole thing at 6" I bet even if they use less.
 

ts3342

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Around here they charge per yard what you use say you use 6 yds they charge 50 dollars a yard you owe them 300 dollars.
 

rburke65

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I'll bet they are not going to do it over once it's down. That's a big difference between 4" and 6"! Can you say 50%! I'd like to get a 50% return on my money. My god....what does your contract say? You do have something in writting........I hope!
 

Daedalus

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The lift manufacturer has already determined the minimum specs for the slab and anchors. Check with them. That said, I agree with what your contractor says. If you're upset on principle, that's one thing, but I wouldn't worry about the pour if the strength is adequate. People get all wound up about adding their own just-in-case factors, as if the engineers crunching the numbers at the lift manufacturer have all missed some critical failure case that will some day rear its ugly head after all these decades, or that the concrete vendors just might screw up the batch this one time.
 
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fwillison

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The lift manufacturer has already determined the minimum specs for the slab and anchors. Check with them. That said, I agree with what your contractor says. If you're upset on principle, that's one thing, but I wouldn't worry about the pour if the strength is adequate. People get all wound up about adding their own just-in-case factors, as if the engineers crunching the numbers at the lift manufacturer have all missed some critical failure case that will some day rear its ugly head after all these decades, or that the concrete vendors just might screw up the batch this one time.

So you would accept 4.5 inches over broad areas of the slab when you contracted for 6 inches?

The tendons/cables of the post tension slab come to 4 inches above grade, so there will only be 1/2 inch concrete over the cables in these large areas (they are supposed to be at the middle of the slab per the engineers drawing that cost me $1885).

BTW, I don't think it's an issue of the contractor trying to cheat me on concrete. They charge labor per sq ft and I pay the cost of the concrete directly to the redi-mix company. I think it is just an issue of lack of attention to detail.
I suspect 99% of GCs and homeowners don't get out string levels and check to confirm the concrete thickness before the pour.
 
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Daedalus

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So you would accept 4.5 inches over broad areas of the slab when you contracted for 6 inches?

The tendons/cables of the post tension slab come to 4 inches above grade, so there will only be 1/2 inch concrete over the cables in these large areas (they are supposed to be at the middle of the slab per the engineers drawing that cost me $1885).

BTW, I don't think it's an issue of the contractor trying to cheat me on concrete. They charge labor per sq ft and I pay the cost of the concrete directly to the redi-mix company. I think it is just an issue of lack of attention to detail.
I suspect 99% of GCs and homeowners don't get out string levels and check to confirm the concrete thickness before the pour.

You stated you had a concern about a lift installed on concrete thinner than what you wanted. I said I thought it would be OK, but that the requirements are set by the lift manufacturer. Obviously you have other, valid concerns regarding engineered post-tensioning. That is a much bigger concern. Where is the inspector in all this?
 
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fwillison

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You stated you had a concern about a lift installed on concrete thinner than what you wanted. I said I thought it would be OK, but that the requirements are set by the lift manufacturer. Obviously you have other, valid concerns regarding engineered post-tensioning. That is a much bigger concern. Where is the inspector in all this?

You're right on the lift, I checked and my MaxJax documentation says 4in minimum concrete thickness.

However, the fact remains that I hired a contractor to pour me a 6 in thick slab. I have no idea what I should expect in terms of variation across the slab, I realize it's not going to be exact.

I know that if I was doing the work myself I would probably work hard to get it to within a half inch either way.
 

getbent4x4

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try and get them to get somewhat close out a 6" all around. Concrete per yard is cheap compared to the labor. also make sure you have a good sand base, that isn't a dusting in areas. Be there when it's poured to make sure they aren't watering the mix down too much to save on concrete
 
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ConCretin

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The ACI standard for minimum concrete floor thickness is an average discrepancy no greater than 3/8" with no individual measurement greater then 3/4". In other words, your floor would average no less than 5 5/8" and be at least 5 1/4" in any spot. With that said, I'd agree with your GC that 5 1/2 to 6 1/2 is fine.

I'd ask them to knock down the high spots and give you a minimum of 5 1/2". You're paying for a 'six inch' slab and should get one without any additional cost.
 
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fwillison

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The ACI standard for minimum concrete floor thickness is an average discrepancy no greater than 3/8" with no individual measurement greater then 3/4". In other words, your floor would average no less than 5 5/8" and be at least 5 1/4" in any spot. With that said, I'd agree with your GC that 5 1/2 to 6 1/2 is fine.

I'd ask them to knock down the high spots and give you a minimum of 5 1/2". You're paying for a 'six inch' slab and should get one without any additional cost.

Excellent! Now I have a standard to discuss. Also agree that 5.5-6 is ok.

In looking at the site, I see that they used the soil from the footing excavation (mixed with some sandy loam that was brought in to level the pad) to raise the grade of the slab. The form boards are 2x12 so about 6 inches of fill is therefore used inside the forms. This soil is heavy clay with "clods", and I suspect very difficult to level accurately. It's mostly under the plastic vapor barrier so I can only the soil on the perimeter in some areas, but that's what it looks like.
 

ConCretin

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This soil is heavy clay with "clods", and I suspect very difficult to level accurately. It's mostly under the plastic vapor barrier so I can only the soil on the perimeter in some areas, but that's what it looks like.

I hesitate to bring this up because I don't want to worry you unnecessarily but I've got some concerns about your sub base. Construction practices vary around the country but we'd never place a slab on 'clay with heavy clods'. Ideally you want a well compacted granular material that can support the weight of the slab and everything placed on it.

Also have a question about the 'form board'. Are you building a pole barn where the board stays in place or do they intend to remove it?
 

NUTTSGT

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BTW, I don't think it's an issue of the contractor trying to cheat me on concrete. They charge labor per sq ft and I pay the cost of the concrete directly to the redi-mix company. I think it is just an issue of lack of attention to detail.
I suspect 99% of GCs and homeowners don't get out string levels and check to confirm the concrete thickness before the pour.

First I wouldn't be happy if I wanted a 6" slab and that's not what I was getting. It's what you paid for, it's what you should get. I can see some places being high or low but when the majority of it is 4.5-5", I'd be upset.



I'm glad to see that you are paying the concrete directly and hopefully getting the contractors price on it though. If you were paying a set concrete quoted price, you'd be getting taken on the concrete.

44x60x6" about 49 yards
44x60x5" over 40.5 yards
44x60x4" about 32.5 yards

At $100/yd, that would be a huge difference in the contractors pocket. Glad to see you are writing the check for that yourself.
 

bczygan

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Stop right now and get your base corrected and your forms built up higher.
Watch carefully how he places and finishes. If thin slabs are OK with him...what else is?
 
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KPSquared

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How thick does a slab need to be to support a 2 post lift, 6 in?
What tolerance is reasonable?
My slab is supposed to be 6 in but I pulled a string level across the forms and the measurements vary from 4 to 6.5 with most falling in the 4.5 to 5 range.

Most Rotary's require 4.25" of at least 3000psi. I think the Mohawk System requires 4.5" of 4000psi. The Atlas 10,000lb hoists spec 4" at 3000psi.

So as far as meeting hoist requirements, you're just fine.

Now, the base material and the lack of thickness as compared to what you have requested should be dealt with. Sounds like you are about to get screwed. . .
 

48windsor

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I dont think I know everything about concrete .I drive a mixer and have picked up a few things. I wouldnt pour anything less than 4 in. thick . Kpsquared has it right .PSI of concrete thickness all these things to factor in . I would be comfortable with a 5-6 in. slab under my lift . Hopefully 2500to 3000 psi min if not better
 
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fwillison

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Met the GC at the site and showed him. He was apologetic for not catching it.

He will meet the concrete sub tomorrow and ask him to redo it. Will need to remove the post tension cables and the plastic vapor barrier. I asked him also to have the sub base removed by bobcat and granular sand brought in for the new base material, graded and compacted with a plate compactor.

Hopefully the concrete guy won't get angry and quit at this. No one likes to have to redo work. I think I should pay for the new fill and maybe some bobcat time but the concrete contractor should absorb some labor cost to fix his mistake, we will see. For sure I want this done right.
 

mrpizza

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I would pay for the new fill but that's all. They are trying to do a hack job and got caught it seems.
 

NUTTSGT

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Hopefully the concrete guy won't get angry and quit at this. No one likes to have to redo work. I think I should pay for the new fill and maybe some bobcat time but the concrete contractor should absorb some labor cost to fix his mistake, we will see. For sure I want this done right.

Why should he get mad ? If he was given specs to work from, he's the professional. He should have followed the specs, done it right the first time and he wouldn't have to redo it.
 

1jjpop

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If you agreed to 6"" concrete , then you should get 6 "" concrete. Pull a string tight accross where concrete goes before you pour, get 6"" of concrete . no less, if he is unhappy because grade is low fill in somemore. And if high cut out some more.. Its as simple as that. This average stuff measurements don't cut it..........
 

upndown

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Why should he get mad ? If he was given specs to work from, he's the professional. He should have followed the specs, done it right the first time and he wouldn't have to redo it.

^^^Ditto^^^ There's no reason you should get anything less than you contracted for..Doesn't matter Who's fault it is!!

Your GC sounds like a reasonable guy, plus it's his job to make sure the concrete guy is up to Spec...Good luck!
 
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fwillison

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@bczygan: Why do you prefer limestone? Sand is used on all the slabs here. I suppose because it is plentiful and cheap. I had talked to a local engineer who said sand or gravel would be essentially equivalent.
@NUTTSGT: He shouldn't get mad, but he probably will, human nature being what it is. The first concrete guy already quit. He had 2x10 inch forms up. My current GC pointed out that his plumber said 12 inches minimum was needed to hook up the drains under slab. He had it leveled and ready. He said "this is costing me too much money" and quit the job. Now I'm trying to be "overly" reasonable, but I still have a red line. 4.5 inches on a 6 inch slab crosses my line...
The GC is a reasonable guy, I like him. But he is a small builder and probably doesn't have that much pull with the big contractors.

Fred
 

NUTTSGT

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Asking for something and expecting to get it is reasonable. You are not out of line, stick to your guns, you're writing the checks.
 

bczygan

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@bczygan: Why do you prefer limestone? Sand is used on all the slabs here. I suppose because it is plentiful and cheap. I had talked to a local engineer who said sand or gravel would be essentially equivalent.

Fred

I've always used sand. Heck, I put it under the 8x12 shed I built in my yard. But if you read the link I posted you will see particles move when too wet or too dry. This is why you need edging when placing pavers. The sand bed you lay them in will disperse along the edges if it gets waterlogged or drys out. Think of how sand acts at the beach. Build a sand castle. If it gets dry, is disintegrates. Build one and make a moat around it and fill the moat with water. Same thing. It dissolves.
Limestone compacts into a hard almost concrete like pad.

Also think of this...You are excavating the organic material down to firm earth. If this is mostly sand, and drains well...great. If it is mostly clay, you have just dug a swimming pool. In that case your sand filled pool will stay wet.
In that case I like a hard compacted base, built up a few inches above surrounding grade.

Any of this is an improvement over the method they used to use for sidewalks around here. Just dig up the grass and pour.
 
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