conduit run / design opinions needed please

[grantw]

I am slowly getting my wall ready to run the conduit and boxes for a 200a service upgrade. I am placing the meter socket at 66" (meter center) in the wooden box (with access door on the outside), and the 200a service disconnect just to the right. (in the picture). I am going to run 3x 2/0 copper cables and 1x #4 copper up the 2" conduit up and over my window down to where I would like to place the new panel.

The way I laid out the conduit, the center of the meter is at 66". The disconnect K/O will line up with the meter box K/O and be about 8-12 inches of straight 2" conduit. From the disconnect, I'll exit through the top hub and over to the load center. However, I wish to enter my load center through the top left side k/o to keep all of the top 1/2" and 3/4" K/O's for the romex going in to the house.

Using the last 90" sweep, my panel feels too low. Should I abandon the last 90 degree sweep in favor of a 90 degree LB? If I did use an LB, I have to space it with a 5" ******, as I can't seem to find a 2" close ******.

Ideas?

 

[Dagny]

get rid of both sweeps come into panels left upper side. If that's to high bend a little offset in horizontal pipe

 

[grantw]

get rid of both sweeps come into panels left upper side. If that's to high bend a little offset in horizontal pipe

That is an 8' wall. I'm not going to have the top of my panel at 7' high. I don't have the ability to bend 2" conduit w/o crushing it. I'm trying to work with hardware store parts on the 2" stuff.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I normally set the top of a service panel at 6',most people can still reach the main at that point.
Then just poke a pipe ****** through the wall and throught an lb on there and point it in the direction of where you want your meter can to be.
Fine tune things from there,check with your power company for their specs on mounting meter can

 

[wyliesdiesels]

2/0 cu is too small for 200a. Its only rated at 175a.

U will need 3/0 cu

Table 310.15b(7) which allowed 2/0 cu for 200a applied to 3-wire service entrances. Youre doing 4-wire. That table was removed in 2014 but the same calcs apply.

And the EGC can be #6 cu. #4 cu is overkill.

 

[grantw]

2/0 cu is too small for 200a. Its only rated at 175a.

U will need 3/0 cu

Table 310.15b(7) which allowed 2/0 cu for 200a applied to 3-wire service entrances. Youre doing 4-wire. That table was removed in 2014 but the same calcs apply.

And the EGC can be #6 cu. #4 cu is overkill.

For the current CalNEC -
310.15(B)(7) - 200A / 2/0 cu
250.66 - 2/0 service feed == #4 ground

I'm wondering why your numbers are different from every other information source I can find for building in California. I'm not trying to build my setup wrong, so I'm wondering where your numbers are coming from.

just a few sources for some cities around me:
http://buildingincalifornia.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/ResServiceUpgrade.pdf
https://ecityhall.sunnyvale.ca.gov/cd/i_Electrical.aspx
http://www.ssf.net/DocumentCenter/View/532

All of these municipalities claim that 2/0 is fine for a 200a service feed.

One more google search comes up with a good reason for the difference in numbers: https://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/2-0-copper-200a-105232/

 

[dw1]

What Wylie has posted is based on the 2014 NEC. You need to find out what code cycle California is enforcing.

 

[grantw]

http://www.bsc.ca.gov/Home.aspx

California 2013 code is current, enforcing 2011 NEC

 

[dw1]

Just curious and asking here: but is your meter in your basement? usually the power company dictates where you can locate your meter (Not sure about California), around here they don't want it inside a residential application. Can you take a pic of your service drop and maybe another where the panel is going?

 

[grantw]

The picture includes the back side of the service drop.

The wood box on the left side with the vertical pipe is the meter and current fuse box.

local utility wants the center of the meter at 66, but no lower than 48" or higher than 75"

 

[tfi racing]

I normally set the top of a service panel at 6',most people can still reach the main at that point.
Then just poke a pipe ****** through the wall and throught an lb on there and point it in the direction of where you want your meter can to be.
Fine tune things from there,check with your power company for their specs on mounting meter can

OP's setup looks complicated,you're thinking along the way I would.****** out the back of the meter into the disconnect,conduit out the side of the disconnect over to the panel,or even simpler yet,why not just use a combo loadcenter?

 

[matt_i]

LBs, while serviceable and extremely useful, are hateful for the tight bend you have to make in the wire before you close it up.

I ran 4pc #2 Cu in a 2" PVC and hated every one of those 4 things I had to close up.

Personally I'd rather pull thru a sweep for #00 Cu.

 

[dw1]

Now that I have slept and re-read your original post... can you put your disconnect right behind your meter (come out of the back of the meter into the back of the disconnect), will this ever be a finished area of your house? you could come out of the bottom of the disconnect, 90* over to panel (how far away and where will panel be)? You could either use some unistrut and clamps to support the pipe or some mineralacs (stand off clamps) Just remember when running your pipe, you will be the one pulling the wire.
P.S- PVC pipe might be easier to work with and cheaper. If you keep the EMT route, you will need ground bushings.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

LBs, while serviceable and extremely useful, are hateful for the tight bend you have to make in the wire before you close it up.

I ran 4pc #2 Cu in a 2" PVC and hated every one of those 4 things I had to close up.

Personally I'd rather pull thru a sweep for #00 Cu.

Use a bigger conduit body or pipe.

 

[alfredeneuman]

That is an 8' wall. I'm not going to have the top of my panel at 7' high. I don't have the ability to bend 2" conduit w/o crushing it. I'm trying to work with hardware store parts on the 2" stuff.

Home Depot carries 2" 45 degree elbows in both EMT and PVC. There's more than enough room between the window and the proposed panel for an offset if you use 2 of them.
The back to back 90s don't look very good IMO

 

[wyliesdiesels]

For the current CalNEC -
310.15(B)(7) - 200A / 2/0 cu
250.66 - 2/0 service feed == #4 ground

I'm wondering why your numbers are different from every other information source I can find for building in California. I'm not trying to build my setup wrong, so I'm wondering where your numbers are coming from.

just a few sources for some cities around me:
http://buildingincalifornia.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/ResServiceUpgrade.pdf
https://ecityhall.sunnyvale.ca.gov/cd/i_Electrical.aspx
http://www.ssf.net/DocumentCenter/View/532

All of these municipalities claim that 2/0 is fine for a 200a service feed.

One more google search comes up with a good reason for the difference in numbers: https://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/2-0-copper-200a-105232/

Forgive me on the 2/0.

I was thinking was a feeder/panel for your shop. If it feeds the entire load of your dwelling then 2/0 is correct for 200a.

However, why are u running a GEC to your load center? Table 250.66 is for grounding electrode conductors- the wire that connects the rods or electrodes to the main panel or disconnect.

The GEC should terminate at the first disconnect.

U would be running an EGC to the load center which is sized based on T250.120

And the GEC to rods can be #6 even though 250.66 says #4 for 2/0.

GEC doesnt go past the first disconnect.

Are u upgrading the wire in the mast?

 

[brewchief]

How about coming out the bottom right of the disconnect and going straight over under the window into the lower corner of the load center?

You could also come up higher out of the top of the disconnect and run the conduit higher over the window and keep it either the same as you have it or simply come straight down into the top of the load center.

 

[Cmreschke]

How bout 90 into the top but add a ****** to get it lower. Use a coupling after the 90 then a short ******. Top center of panel. Eliminates 90 degrees making an easier pull.

 

[grantw]

Now that I have slept and re-read your original post... can you put your disconnect right behind your meter (come out of the back of the meter into the back of the disconnect), will this ever be a finished area of your house? you could come out of the bottom of the disconnect, 90* over to panel (how far away and where will panel be)? You could either use some unistrut and clamps to support the pipe or some mineralacs (stand off clamps) Just remember when running your pipe, you will be the one pulling the wire.
P.S- PVC pipe might be easier to work with and cheaper. If you keep the EMT route, you will need ground bushings.

I have 2/0 and #4 the wire run, and as I'm using the threaded hub at the top of my main disconnect, I hope this satisfies 260.92(B)(2) as the grounding method of my long raceway to the panel board...?

From the meter box to my main disconnect, I'm gathering I need to replace my plastic bushing you can see on the empty EMT coupling with a grounded bushing. As far as the meter box is concerned, the threaded hub and bonded neutral (in the meter box) will take care of the rigid 2" up to the weather head.

 

[grantw]

I might be having a close call with the utility... They seem to want a disconnect available from the outside. As shown above, I placed mine on the inside of the garage wall next to the outside facing meter socket.

How do you read this passage from my local poco's manual?

5.7.1.
Main Service Disconnects
For each installed meter, the applicant, in compliance with applicable codes,
must furnish and install a fusible switch, circuit breaker, or other approved
disconnecting means for controlling all of (and only) the energy registered
by that meter. When the governing code or ordinance permits, the
disconnect means may consist of a group of fusible or circuit-breaker
disconnects. PG&E requires access to these disconnects.

Except for transformer-rated metering equipment, applicants do not have to
place the main service disconnect switch adjacent to the meter. The switch
may be located inside or outside of the building being served, as described
in the applicable electrical codes. When the switch is in another building or
location, proper access, signage, and maps are required.
PG&E prefers applicants to have provisions for individual disconnects
when they use switchboards with multimeter installations.

NOTE : See Paragraph B., in Subsection 1.14., “Determining the Service
Rating,” when more than one disconnecting means is installed.

 

[grantw]

I decided not to fight an uphill battle with PG&E on the interpretation of their own manual. I am returning the separate main disconnect and meter box to the store, and I ordered up a combo 200A meter / 4 space load center with through lugs.

A Siemens MC0408B1200T if anyone is interested. Thank goodness for amazon prime.

The dimensions will fin in my outside facing enclosure and has through-lugs to pass 2/0 cable to my main 40 space load center. I also decided to move the 40 space panel to where I mounted the disconnect previously. Yes, I'll be extending all of my home-runs by another 10 feet, but I won't need to deal with any clearance issues with the stairs to the house. I'm still considering running a sub panel in to a closet for most of bedroom and bath outlets in the back of the house. This way I can avoid 10+ home runs of romex in exchange for a #4 feeder or something.

I have a service appointment to have my power disconnected Monday the 5th, with the city inspector coming out on Dec 7th. The inspection is for the new 200a service to the new 200a panel. The old panel is a 100A sub until my contractor can re-wire the house to the new panel. (And yes, the existing panel is going to be scary; There is a 1.25" flex coupling lock-nutted to one side of a 2" hub opening. I can't wait to rip that garbage out)

 

[ard]

Yeah, Ive been wondering about that since I saw your thread...Im PGE and they require access to the disconnect. Meaning outside or in an open closet with signs saying 'disconnect in here'. As in 'they need to disconnect your home and you are in Tahiti' access.

Virtually all the services I see in northern CA are meter+disconnect+panel all in one.

Personally I have a 400A with two 200A disconnects- one powers an integrated breaker panel, the other 200A gives me lugs to a 200A subpanel in the dwelling. (It goes on from there- a 100A service to a barn/shop, a 50A service to a pool area, a solar connection, etc....these are all done on the integrated panel. The garage, which is part of the home, has all circuits derived from the integrated panel.) Just FYI- lots of ways to skin the cat.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I decided not to fight an uphill battle with PG&E on the interpretation of their own manual. I am returning the separate main disconnect and meter box to the store, and I ordered up a combo 200A meter / 4 space load center with through lugs.

A Siemens MC0408B1200T if anyone is interested. Thank goodness for amazon prime.

The dimensions will fin in my outside facing enclosure and has through-lugs to pass 2/0 cable to my main 40 space load center. I also decided to move the 40 space panel to where I mounted the disconnect previously. Yes, I'll be extending all of my home-runs by another 10 feet, but I won't need to deal with any clearance issues with the stairs to the house. I'm still considering running a sub panel in to a closet for most of bedroom and bath outlets in the back of the house. This way I can avoid 10+ home runs of romex in exchange for a #4 feeder or something.

I have a service appointment to have my power disconnected Monday the 5th, with the city inspector coming out on Dec 7th. The inspection is for the new 200a service to the new 200a panel. The old panel is a 100A sub until my contractor can re-wire the house to the new panel. (And yes, the existing panel is going to be scary; There is a 1.25" flex coupling lock-nutted to one side of a 2" hub opening. I can't wait to rip that garbage out)

Code no longer allows panels in closets for obvious reasons

 

[grantw]

Code no longer allows panels in closets for obvious reasons

damnit.

More home runs then.

 

[grantw]

Yeah, Ive been wondering about that since I saw your thread...Im PGE and they require access to the disconnect. Meaning outside or in an open closet with signs saying 'disconnect in here'. As in 'they need to disconnect your home and you are in Tahiti' access.

Virtually all the services I see in northern CA are meter+disconnect+panel all in one.

Yeah, A trend I see in all threads about service delivery, is keep it "normal" for your area. I took the 5.7.1 section out of PG&E's 2016 greenbook literally, and though the disconnect could be in the garage. But, the service planner I was on the phone with seemed to disagree with that wording. I mean, if PG&E or the Fire Department needed to emergency disconnect, they could pull the meter...but, I digress. I'll stop trying to be weird and provide a disconnect outside as expected.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yeah, A trend I see in all threads about service delivery, is keep it "normal" for your area. I took the 5.7.1 section out of PG&E's 2016 greenbook literally, and though the disconnect could be in the garage. But, the service planner I was on the phone with seemed to disagree with that wording. I mean, if PG&E or the Fire Department needed to emergency disconnect, they could pull the meter...but, I digress. I'll stop trying to be weird and provide a disconnect outside as expected.

PGE is gonna want an accesable main disconnect.

Ive done some installs in their territory.

And pulling a meter can be dangerous when there is a load running through it.