Conduit size for 400' run

[PNWguy]

I need to run 220 and ethernet to my well (the IP camera and gate are near the well), about 400' - plus water back to the house and the feed from the pole.

I know I can save a few bucks and direct bury the ethernet, but running conduit will allow me to more easily upgrade or replace it later. What size conduit (PVC?) would you run for a single CAT6, and leave room for the possibility of running fiber or???

The well runs on a 30A circuit, and it may also power a few very low amperage LEDs and battery trickle charger for the gate. I assume I'll need a small sub panel in the pump house - or run two sets of wires from the main panel. Again, what size conduit would you use? I'm not planning to upgrade it later.

The 3 conduits and water line will be separated as per POCO rules.

 

[ard]

dont worry about 'poco rules'...they only apply on the pocos side of the meter!

400 ft is too far for ethernet- so fiber or put in repeaters

You need a little subpanel- 30A 240 for the well, 15-120 for the camera, fiber converter.

If you drop in a 1.5" conduit (yes, pvc) you will have plenty of space for a pre-terminated fiber. Might get away w 1" but....

You need to size the cable and electrical conduit for the wire needed. 40A? at 400ft... #2 copper. Ouch

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I need to run 220 and ethernet to my well (the IP camera and gate are near the well), about 400' - plus water back to the house and the feed from the pole.

I know I can save a few bucks and direct bury the ethernet, but running conduit will allow me to more easily upgrade or replace it later. What size conduit (PVC?) would you run for a single CAT6, and leave room for the possibility of running fiber or???

The well runs on a 30A circuit, and it may also power a few very low amperage LEDs and battery trickle charger for the gate. I assume I'll need a small sub panel in the pump house - or run two sets of wires from the main panel. Again, what size conduit would you use? I'm not planning to upgrade it later.

The 3 conduits and water line will be separated as per POCO rules.

400' of ethernet cable regardless of which type(CAT5e, CAT6, etc) is too long especially for a POE powered device such as a camera.

You should run fiber to a converter or small POE switch.

 

[PNWguy]

I'm aware that the distance is greater than 100 meters. I'm hoping for a bit of signal degradation, rather than total failure. 1 camera at low framerate.

The cost of the fiber is more than I can deal with on this project.

And yes, the pump wiring will hurt, but it will cost less than drilling a new well.

 

[Kevin Essiambre]

The cost of the fiber is more than I can deal with on this project.

fs.com has some cheap fiber items and you can order custom cables from them with pulling grips on them. It's worth checking out.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I'm aware that the distance is greater than 100 meters. I'm hoping for a bit of signal degradation, rather than total failure. 1 camera at low framerate.

The cost of the fiber is more than I can deal with on this project.

And yes, the pump wiring will hurt, but it will cost less than drilling a new well.

There wouldnt be signal degradation because ethernet has error correction.

What you would have instead is high latency and missed frames.

But the biggest issue is it may not work at all since the voltage drop of POE power may be too high at that distance.

Have you considered a wireless point to point instead? something like 2 ubiquiti nano beam AC radios?

do you have clear line of site between the pump house and house?

 

[David0858]

There wouldnt be signal degradation because ethernet has error correction.

What you would have instead is high latency and missed frames.

But the biggest issue is it may not work at all since the voltage drop of POE power may be too high at that distance.

Have you considered a wireless point to point instead? something like 2 ubiquiti nano beam AC radios?

do you have clear line of site between the pump house and house?

I think most of the POE cameras also have a power connector so instead of POE, you can use ethernet plus a power adapter.

My 1080p cameras at 5 fps use very little bandwidth (mine are runnng on wifi) so he might get away with 400' of decent cable.

 

[dutchgray]

I myself would not run less than 2" for anything, but for water we run 4" conduit usually if we are not direct burying, makes pulling pipe in easy and most of the cost is actually digging the trench, if it was a job you could do with a trencher then the digging cost goes way down.
I would run one size larger than you need for the power based on the cable size you need for the pump, run another large conduit for the water and stuff the ethernet in with it and I would power the camera from the pump house, add a breaker and an outlet, plug in a power supply and run a low voltage flex out to the camera.

 

[mike93lx]

I would bump up wire size. The pump will pull pretty heavily at startup, which will sag voltage.

2/0 AL XHHW is probably what I would run. Should fit fine in 2" conduit. Downsize neutral and ground probably 2 sizes, but a real sparky would be best to advise.

This run really justifies fiber. I guess you could try cat5e or cat6, but are you OK with throwing away $100-200 of wire if it doesn't work? The certainty of fiber is quite appealing at that cost, IMO. Haven't looked at fiber a lot, but it would be about $1/ft,right?

 

[kaffine]

For the Ethernet they make extenders. This one is able to extend it 500 meters over UTP. You have to have a converter at each end but no repeaters in between.

https://www.altronix.com/products/eBridge100RMT

 

[mike93lx]

For the Ethernet they make extenders. This one is able to extend it 500 meters over UTP. You have to have a converter at each end but no repeaters in between.

https://www.altronix.com/products/eBridge100RMT

If the price I found is accurate, it would be kind of crazy to use that over fiber, IMO.

 

[PNWguy]

I myself would not run less than 2" for anything, but for water we run 4" conduit usually if we are not direct burying, makes pulling pipe in easy and most of the cost is actually digging the trench, if it was a job you could do with a trencher then the digging cost goes way down.
I would run one size larger than you need for the power based on the cable size you need for the pump, run another large conduit for the water and stuff the ethernet in with it and I would power the camera from the pump house, add a breaker and an outlet, plug in a power supply and run a low voltage flex out to the camera.

I can't use a trencher, as the power from the pole needs to be at least 12" (height and depth) away from everything else. I'll use an excavator with a 16" bucket.

You run 4" for water? You must have a hell of a good well and pump. I'll be more than fine with 1". I'll put a flow restrictor on the line, and keep my storage tank topped off.

 

[PNWguy]

There wouldnt be signal degradation because ethernet has error correction.

What you would have instead is high latency and missed frames.

But the biggest issue is it may not work at all since the voltage drop of POE power may be too high at that distance.

Have you considered a wireless point to point instead? something like 2 ubiquiti nano beam AC radios?

do you have clear line of site between the pump house and house?

I was not planning to use POE for this camera; just hoping to get a few frames per second down the line. Thanks for the input and ideas; you give consistently good feedback on these kinds of questions.

No line of site unless I get really busy with the chainsaw. We're all about the trees in the Pacific Northwest. I cleared 3(?) cords of hardwood just doing the excavation for the site, plus more from the driveway.

 

[Aceman]

We would most likely run 1 1/4 with steel 90's for all the runs.

400' isn't really that far. There's no reason to go 2" for the runs because realistically, you'll probably end up with #6's or #4 AL to the wellhouse sub. That wire will fly through 1 1/4 at 400'.

1 1/4 is a lot easier to bow into an irregular ditch and stub up also.

 

[mike93lx]

We would most likely run 1 1/4 with steel 90's for all the runs.

400' isn't really that far. There's no reason to go 2" for the runs because realistically, you'll probably end up with #6's or #4 AL to the wellhouse sub. That wire will fly through 1 1/4 at 400'.

1 1/4 is a lot easier to bow into an irregular ditch and stub up also.

#4 AL for a 30a draw at 400 feet? That's 5% voltage drop, not counting the I rush current of the pump starting. I would definitely run larger if I was paying for the pump

 

[ard]

1. If OP says 'the well needs 30 amps', the that should include: start up, inrush, etc etc. 30 Amps it is. Right?

2. The 4 in conduit was confusing... But it sound like he is THEN running a water pipe AND low voltage/data within that 4" conduit.... Interesting approach.

3. OP...you talk about needing to be 12 inches away...for "power from the pole"... Is there some other aspect of this install not described? Is some of this service entrance before the meter?

4. Check out the real pricing on pre-terminated fiber. FS.com or just Amazon. Yes, there is a bit of a learning curve, but at first pass you will find a cable and converters are $200-300..max. Check it out

GL

 

[mike93lx]

1. If OP says 'the well needs 30 amos', the that should include: start up, inrush, etc etc. 30 Amps it is. Right?

GL

That seems like a bold assumption.

 

[Kevin Essiambre]

If the price I found is accurate, it would be kind of crazy to use that over fiber, IMO.

Not sure of the price you found, but my price for those (up here in Canada where everything is more exspensive) is between $3-400. That's not that bad, but I would still use fiber for what he is trying to do (I just ran fiber at a job for almost the exact same thing).

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.

 

[mike93lx]

Not sure of the price you found, but my price for those (up here in Canada where everything is more exspensive) is between $3-400. That's not that bad, but I would still use fiber for what he is trying to do (I just ran fiber at a job for almost the exact same thing).

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.

I saw about 150 each in a quick search

 

[LXCam]

You’ll be fine on the camera but if you do run into an issue you can always add a injector. Just make sure to match the wattage rating appropriately.

Here’s an example: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DW99IPS/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[Aceman]

#4 AL for a 30a draw at 400 feet? That's 5% voltage drop, not counting the I rush current of the pump starting. I would definitely run larger if I was paying for the pump

Who said anything about a 30 amp load?

I only saw mention of a 30 amp circuit.

 

[Kevin Essiambre]

I saw about 150 each in a quick search

My price is for a set/pair.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.

 

[mike93lx]

Who said anything about a 30 amp load?

I only saw mention of a 30 amp circuit.

Good point.

 

[dutchgray]

I can't use a trencher, as the power from the pole needs to be at least 12" (height and depth) away from everything else. I'll use an excavator with a 16" bucket.

You run 4" for water? You must have a hell of a good well and pump. I'll be more than fine with 1". I'll put a flow restrictor on the line, and keep my storage tank topped off.

Well we usually run a 25mm or 32mm plastic coil water pipe, in 50m rolls but you can get longer, direct buried, but where for what ever reason it needs to be in a conduit we use a 100mm flexible one or straight lengths of pvc drainage pipe. Usually we only conduit where it comes into the building to a few metres outside, makes changing or reworking much easier and you want to isolate the pipe from concrete floors or where it passes through the footings anyway.
But we have put spare conduit into the ground under concrete yards or tarmac drives etc for future use, a bit of thought and some money to save having to put a cut through an expensive yard surface a year later is not a bad idea.
The other advantage of the coil water pipe is they make quite a good conduit pushing/ pulling tool when someone forgets or loses the end of the pull rope, jam the pipe in, tie on what you want to pull in and pull the pipe back out, long as the conduit is 2" or bigger its pretty easy.
There almost isn't any privately owned water supplies here, I know of a couple but its only remote farms etc that are too far away from the mains water supply, which for a domestic supply they will allow a 25mm or 32mm pipe but the tap into the main pipe is about a 1/4" hole.

 

[PNWguy]

1. If OP says 'the well needs 30 amps', the that should include: start up, inrush, etc etc. 30 Amps it is. Right?

I have a 1/2 hp pump on the well, and may need to bump it to 3/4 at some point. I;ve been told (but have not consulted with an electrician yet) that I'll need a 30amp breaker.

2. The 4 in conduit was confusing... But it sound like he is THEN running a water pipe AND low voltage/data within that 4" conduit.... Interesting approach.

That one confused me as well, but i guess he must be running power, water and such inside another conduit?

3. OP...you talk about needing to be 12 inches away...for "power from the pole"... Is there some other aspect of this install not described? Is some of this service entrance before the meter?

Yep.
"I need to run 220 and ethernet to my well (the IP camera and gate are near the well), about 400' - plus water back to the house and the feed from the pole."

My well is not too far from the nearest pole. POCO will let me use he same trench for hi & low voltage, water and the feed to the meter - as long as the feed is 12" below and to the side of the rest.

 

[mike93lx]

My 1/2hp pump is on a 20a breaker. Has been for almost 50 years. Replaced the original maybe 4 or 5 years ago.

 

[David0858]

I have a 1/2 hp pump on the well, and may need to bump it to 3/4 at some point. I;ve been told (but have not consulted with an electrician yet) that I'll need a 30amp breaker.

My 1 hp pump has been running on a 20 amp breaker since '84 and has never flipped.

 

[ard]

You should sharpen your calculations on the well pump.

I have a 5HP 240V submersible down 375', so quite a bit of head. It is rated at 27 FL amps, I think (think) it is on a 30A breaker, maybe 40. Point being your 3/4 will be less...

so make sure, even if you size it for 1HP. At 400 ft your voltage drop will be costing $$$ in terms of wire size.

 

[PNWguy]

You should sharpen your calculations on the well pump.

Absolutely.