conduit
- Thread starter elba
- Start date
dfiler2
Well-known member
Are we talking about the wire or where it is located, it is usually done to protect the wire. Most homes have the wire going from the ceiling to the W/H in conduit so you don't have a wire hanging in the air that could be easily damaged. Of course there are lots of other reasons to use conduit. I used conduit in my shop because I wanted to surface mount the wire to make future changes easy and possible. I could not just staple romex type wire to the surface because it would be too easy to damage.
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Mustang51js
Well-known member
Need more info like type of building,what it will be used for and what you plan on doing
rockwithjason
Well-known member
A general rule is thay if the wire or cable is in a place where it can be easily damaged or touched from the ground then it needs physical protection ie conduit
finn
Well-known member
Local code can be tighter than national codes.
Metro Chicago requires home , and I presume shops, to be wired with conduit.
It's a pain at first, but once you get the hang of bending and routing conduit, it actually looks pretty cool.
Metro Chicago requires home , and I presume shops, to be wired with conduit.
It's a pain at first, but once you get the hang of bending and routing conduit, it actually looks pretty cool.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Individual wire (non bundled/no outer jacket) such as THHN needs to be in conduit.
alfredeneuman
Well-known member
Chicago still remembers when Mrs. O'Leary's cow kicked over the lantern in 1871 and their Electrical Codes reflect this.
I think it had a lot to do with Union influence, too.
zmaxmotorsports
Well-known member
Forget conduit for a second,How about some pictures of the old unibody pickup in your avatar?
ford33
Well-known member
I like working with electrical conduit. It provides a nice clean organized electrical installation. If I need to make changes to the wire size or number of wires in a conduit, I can easily run new wire in walls and ceilings through the conduit. You cannot do that as easily with Romex stapled to the walls frame.
I live in Chicago and feel conduit is superior to Romex but I am biased. When people ask me who did the electrical installations in my garage, I tell them, I did. What I do not tell them is how much conduit was thrown away because I bent it incorrectly or measured wrong.
I live in Chicago and feel conduit is superior to Romex but I am biased. When people ask me who did the electrical installations in my garage, I tell them, I did. What I do not tell them is how much conduit was thrown away because I bent it incorrectly or measured wrong.
Pretty much any home within 2-3 hours I believe. I have never worked further than that.
Conduit is steel.
Boxes are steel
The good side is you don't need to ground every device because they are naturally bonded through the conduit system. The wire is also cheaper because you only buy what you need vs romex which sometimes you need 2 wire and sometimes 3 wire.
I am an electrician in Chicago. Conduit goes in fast...after about 4 years of practice. The wiring is very easy compared to romex. I did a house in Wisconsin once and we were allowed to use romex. I hated it. The wire was hard to get into the boxes and you had to ground every device. Sure, we saved on conduit, but then you end up running multiple single wires since you are maxed out with 3 wire romex.
10' of conduit (1/2") is just shy of $2. Fittings are about 15-25 cents each and the metal boxes and ring are about $2-3 bucks combined. #12 ga wire thhn is about $83/1000' from my supplier currently.
Speedy Petey
Well-known member
Funny how everyone from Chicagoland LOVES EMT, and touts it as the best thing going, and that NM is garbage and no easier to work with, yet the rest of the country knows that it is a joke to run ALL conduit in pretty much any home, and that it is union mandated totalitarian overkill.
I've heard every reason to love conduit, and to hate cable. I have yet to be convinced even a little that conduit is that much better.
"The wire was hard to get into the boxes and you had to ground every device."???? That has to be one of the funniest ones yet.
I've heard every reason to love conduit, and to hate cable. I have yet to be convinced even a little that conduit is that much better.
"The wire was hard to get into the boxes and you had to ground every device."???? That has to be one of the funniest ones yet.
Speedy Petey
Well-known member
You have to remember that Sch40 PVC affords no more protection than NM cable in the eyes of the code.
raddksn
Well-known member
Yes getting the hang of it is not that tough!
rockwithjason
Well-known member
i never said anything about pvc
Since your profile states that you are an electrical contractor (as am I), I will give you the benefit if the doubt that you have some knowledge of electrical installations.
The remodel I did was a kitchen. You have 12 ga. solid wiring and multiple circuits. This kitchen I ran 2 small appliance, fridge, microwave/stove, dishwasher and disposal on one. That's 5 circuits.
Lets assume 50' from panel
You need 2 x romex wires. 12-2 @ .22/ft, 12-3 @ .42/ft
$32 in wire.
$5 in stud plates?
$2-5 for wire straps
THHN @ .09/ft
conduit w fittings@ .20/ft
$31 in wire
$10 conduit.
Material is almost identical.
Labor- Both need holes drilled. Conduit goes in quick when you are proficient at it.
Once the conduit is in, one person can pull the wire and you are done.
Romex is a pain pulling one person. Plus if you have to turn corners or pull multiple wires it gets tangled and knotted going through the stud holes. Then you need to double back and nail strap the studs and staple/strap the wires. You are going back 3 times after you make your hole.
Once the wire is in the box with thhn, there is less splicing and terminating. My comment about fitting the wires in the box, it's legit.
2 small appliance circuits, you have 3 wires with thhn. You might have to splice a neutral and a hot, while the other hot blasts right on through. You don't have that luxury with romex. You need to splice all 4 wires. Then you need have a pile of 12ga **** in a box.
4 splices vs 2.
3 wires to terminate vs 2 on a device.
You need to cut the outer jacket and trim the wire vs just trimming the wire.
It's all time and more processes.
What happens when someone wants to add to the house? Pull another circuit or switch a light from another place? What do you do when you have complex setups like 4x3way switches in one box going to different lights? Sounds like a rats nest of wires and trying to ID them is a pain.
What happens if the wire breaks in the wall or gets too short from years of remodeling and you cant get a device on it? You can't just repull the wire. What about a remodel where you can just intercept a conduit and repull the circuit.
Codes are constantly changing. Devices are constantly changing. Conduit really lets people have more options. What are you romex guys going to do when arc fault circuits start taking off by you? It's now an NEC code to have just about every circuit in a house an arc fault. You can't share neutrals so the 14-3 wire is useless and you are now forced to run a bunch of 14-2 cables instead.
Romex works and is just as safe as conduit, but at the end of the day I doubt price difference is more than 5% in either direction. Obviously someone who doesn't work with conduit or thhn on a daily basis will take longer than if they are familiar with romex.
No one needs 500 hp in a car, but you know what, it sure is fun and I rather have it and not need it then need it and not have it
rockwithjason
Well-known member
piped houses also burn less. insurance companies in chicagoland know that and have stats to back it up. i don't hate cable, but given the choice i will pipe it every time.
slodat
ALLIANCE MEMBER
My house, built in 1935 by the federal government, has conduit for all of the original electrical. Updating the old wire was quick and easy. Adding a conductor for a ceiling fan light also easy. I've grown accustomed to using EMT from running it in my shop. I really like it.
slow
Well-known member
Conduit for remodel is great but I can guarantee the cost for electrical on 2 identical houses one in cook county and the other in Florida will be nowhere near the same cost.
Ryan
Ryan
Care to quote your sources? Material will be nearly identical. Pipe is a little more labor on install, but you save on wiring and trimming. Romex is a litttle quicker on the wiring, but you lose it on the trim and fastening of wires.
You can't compare labor RATES, but you can compare labor TIME.
sberry
Banned
Lotso piped houses in Fla. Lots in older tract block jobs piped on the walls and furred over.
It wouldn't be so practical for wood stud construction without a lot of pre engineering.
On a block job it was super simple and lots of those guys done it before so as soon as the roof was on zoom in and pipe it, smack all the hangers on the wall and the rest of the house could be worked on before it was really wired. No slow staples, multiple cables etc. All the work at floor level except to wire lights.
It wouldn't be so practical for wood stud construction without a lot of pre engineering.
On a block job it was super simple and lots of those guys done it before so as soon as the roof was on zoom in and pipe it, smack all the hangers on the wall and the rest of the house could be worked on before it was really wired. No slow staples, multiple cables etc. All the work at floor level except to wire lights.
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Is that comparing a person that is proficient at conduit work, or a person that has no idea how to do conduit primarily does romex? 20% seems high to me. Material is only about 25% of the cost of a job, and it's about the same between romex and conduit. The remainder of the cost is labor.
A typical single family here (chicago) is roughly $25,000 for the electric scope (at union rates). That would make labor alone $18,750 and materials roughly $6,250. 20% less cost (material removed) would be $13,750 for labor.
@ $100/hr= 187.5 hrs vs 137.5 hrs = 50 hours difference? That's over a weeks worth of work on a 4.5 week job. Seems high to me and likely comparing a person that might be proficient in romex and not conduit.
sberry
Banned
Half a dozen or more spools of wire on a cart and a guy feeding fish tape to it and yank every conductor needed in a pull. The devices were screwed into the box and the termination work is super zippy with self grounding.
sberry
Banned
I would say Norcal might be on the button considering construction type. Also like every good feature there is some markup for it.
Cmreschke
Well-known member
Roping a house around here would easily be cheaper than piping a house here. Labor time and material costs. How much is a guess but I'd bet easily 20 percent or better.
Cmreschke
Well-known member
2 to 3 dollars for a box and ring plus fittings, romex box is 18 cents. I've done both types of work, for a better quality job I'd pipe it as that's what I did in my barn. If I were looking to get done faster and cheaper, romex for sure.
sberry
Banned
Agree for typical installs. I had an underwriter on one of my buildings look and the piped wiring was a plus.
Cmreschke
Well-known member
I do have a problem with the "union mandated" comment though. It's not union mandated or pushed. And be happy that there are still unions around your weekends wouldn't be the same without them.
sberry
Banned
There are places it could save a lot of work based on technique, mwbc etc, using pipe as ground one could shove 8 circuits in a 3/4, replace 4 cables that might need to be routed and stapled up in a ceiling. Maybe some Jbox could go, this would be highly design dependent.
I saw a guy a while back who did a beautiful job but in several places run 2 pipe where1 would have done with minor design change.
I saw a guy a while back who did a beautiful job but in several places run 2 pipe where1 would have done with minor design change.
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really?
1 gang plastic box: $.50
plastic 2 gang box: $2.84
Metal box with bracket: $1.03
2 gang mud ring: $.98
So a metal 2gang box setup is $2.01
Plastic is $2.84.
Metal 1 gang setup is $2.01
Plastic is $.50
Boy that's a substantially large difference
Maybe $50-60 more on a single family house?
We know the wire is cheaper than romex and you need less wires and have more options. You can buy colors when you have complicated runs and not have to mark and tag each wire and figure it out later if the marking comes off.
Still not buying the 20% added cost, assuming the romex is installed correctly (nails straps and wire stapled).
Ilikeike
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I use to see a lot of "smurf" ENT, in commercial offices(1990s),not just for low volt but 120/208v.
I rarely see it anymore. I always thought that might be a good cheap way to do a home since you could easily add to it when needed,like EMT.
Maybe it's not allowed or cost effective anymore.
I rarely see it anymore. I always thought that might be a good cheap way to do a home since you could easily add to it when needed,like EMT.
Maybe it's not allowed or cost effective anymore.
Redwolf947
Well-known member
really?
1 gang plastic box: $.50
*****plastic 2 gang box: $2.84*****
Metal box with bracket: $1.03
2 gang mud ring: $.98
So a metal 2gang box setup is $2.01
Plastic is $2.84.
Metal 1 gang setup is $2.01
Plastic is $.50
Boy that's a substantially large difference
Maybe $50-60 more on a single family house?
We know the wire is cheaper than romex and you need less wires and have more options. You can buy colors when you have complicated runs and not have to mark and tag each wire and figure it out later if the marking comes off.
Still not buying the 20% added cost, assuming the romex is installed correctly (nails straps and wire stapled).
*****plastic 2 gang box: $2.84*****
Please note that price is for 20 pcs.. 20 boxes for $2.84.. $0.14 each then??
so the total for plastic is $0.60??
I also see a 2 gang plastic new work box for $0.95. still cheaper
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ahhh, you are right. That 2 gang box also looks like it needs a mud ring to make it work as well. So, $.14 + $.98 mud ring= $1.12 vs $2.01.
Clearly I am not proficient in plastic boxes
I will bump my price of boxes to $100 more for a single family house
You will gain it back on the labor side not having to mess with that pesky romex