Cmreschke
Well-known member
<---skilled ibew jiw
conduit
- Thread starter elba
- Start date
Cmreschke
Well-known member
http://m.homedepot.com/p/Carlon-2-Gang-32-cu-in-New-Work-Switch-and-Outlet-Box-B232ACP/202065285
.94 cents, and my bad the single gangs are .24 cents. And while your still dickering around trying to get your metal boxes screwed in I'm already drilling my holes.
I and one other in my romex days could wire 3200 square feet in 9 hours, spliced ready for inspection. Could never do that with pipe no way no how with 2 guys. This was during arc faults inception, where there was still confusion. Now it would be easier.
.94 cents, and my bad the single gangs are .24 cents. And while your still dickering around trying to get your metal boxes screwed in I'm already drilling my holes.
I and one other in my romex days could wire 3200 square feet in 9 hours, spliced ready for inspection. Could never do that with pipe no way no how with 2 guys. This was during arc faults inception, where there was still confusion. Now it would be easier.
Those who are proficient with EMT would have a hard time with NM & ropers would be inept with EMT, NM is cheaper then EMT and out here in CA no one is willing to pay for EMT as NM has a good record in millions of homes, I prefer EMT but it's not going to spread beyond Crook County & it's suburbs.
Cmreschke
Well-known member
Agreed
sberry
Banned
I have no doubt cable is cheaper.
MTW
Well-known member
Re: EMT Wiring Methods
I'll add this, that I didn't see mentioned elsewhere. If you do a variety of work types, EMT has the advantage of only one type of material needs to be stocked, for almost any type work.
Industrial, commercial, residential, metal studs, outdoors, indoors, machinery.
Carrying just one type materials on your truck is also an advantage, lowers the cost of multiple trips to the shop, wholesaler and trips to the customers site.
Using it requires a greater initial cost than plastic materials, and the labor skill requirement is greater, but is useable for all types of work, in most situations. I've had many customers request it, where other methods could of been used. They like the appearance, durability, and the ability to modify when future changes dictate. I've even had customers request that you do the piping install after painting their office, to get the look that they wanted.
Many inspectors will take a look at the workmanship of a piping job and determine that a true professional did the installation and look no further at the finer points of the installation.
It's definitely not the go to choice for amateurs or DIY types because of the learning curve. But once that is achieved, I think the benefits outweigh the disadvantages, costs included.
Back in my early days I can recall using nearly a full bundle to make a couple of pieces to fit underneath a commercial dishwasher table that was crowded and messy. Today when I leave a job site the only scrap left is a few straight short pieces that get used for unspooling wire, or go into the recycle bucket because their too short for any other use.
The same thing applies to the wire, there isn't much waste. The leftovers are what I use at the beginning of the next project. Only a few inches of each pull ever makes it to the recycle bucket. Stranded wire is much easier to train neatly inside boxes and enclosures. Also is much easier to service when the time comes for that.
Maybe I should have took that job offer in Chicago in my younger days when it presented itself, but it appears that Detroit had good opportunity's for sparky's with piping skills.
MTW Ω
I'll add this, that I didn't see mentioned elsewhere. If you do a variety of work types, EMT has the advantage of only one type of material needs to be stocked, for almost any type work.
Industrial, commercial, residential, metal studs, outdoors, indoors, machinery.
Carrying just one type materials on your truck is also an advantage, lowers the cost of multiple trips to the shop, wholesaler and trips to the customers site.
Using it requires a greater initial cost than plastic materials, and the labor skill requirement is greater, but is useable for all types of work, in most situations. I've had many customers request it, where other methods could of been used. They like the appearance, durability, and the ability to modify when future changes dictate. I've even had customers request that you do the piping install after painting their office, to get the look that they wanted.
Many inspectors will take a look at the workmanship of a piping job and determine that a true professional did the installation and look no further at the finer points of the installation.
It's definitely not the go to choice for amateurs or DIY types because of the learning curve. But once that is achieved, I think the benefits outweigh the disadvantages, costs included.
Back in my early days I can recall using nearly a full bundle to make a couple of pieces to fit underneath a commercial dishwasher table that was crowded and messy. Today when I leave a job site the only scrap left is a few straight short pieces that get used for unspooling wire, or go into the recycle bucket because their too short for any other use.
The same thing applies to the wire, there isn't much waste. The leftovers are what I use at the beginning of the next project. Only a few inches of each pull ever makes it to the recycle bucket. Stranded wire is much easier to train neatly inside boxes and enclosures. Also is much easier to service when the time comes for that.
Maybe I should have took that job offer in Chicago in my younger days when it presented itself, but it appears that Detroit had good opportunity's for sparky's with piping skills.
MTW Ω
raddksn
Well-known member
Wise man speaking here. Pay attention!Since your profile states that you are an electrical contractor (as am I), I will give you the benefit if the doubt that you have some knowledge of electrical installations.
The remodel I did was a kitchen. You have 12 ga. solid wiring and multiple circuits. This kitchen I ran 2 small appliance, fridge, microwave/stove, dishwasher and disposal on one. That's 5 circuits.
Lets assume 50' from panel
You need 2 x romex wires. 12-2 @ .22/ft, 12-3 @ .42/ft
$32 in wire.
$5 in stud plates?
$2-5 for wire straps
THHN @ .09/ft
conduit w fittings@ .20/ft
$31 in wire
$10 conduit.
Material is almost identical.
Labor- Both need holes drilled. Conduit goes in quick when you are proficient at it.
Once the conduit is in, one person can pull the wire and you are done.
Romex is a pain pulling one person. Plus if you have to turn corners or pull multiple wires it gets tangled and knotted going through the stud holes. Then you need to double back and nail strap the studs and staple/strap the wires. You are going back 3 times after you make your hole.
Once the wire is in the box with thhn, there is less splicing and terminating. My comment about fitting the wires in the box, it's legit.
2 small appliance circuits, you have 3 wires with thhn. You might have to splice a neutral and a hot, while the other hot blasts right on through. You don't have that luxury with romex. You need to splice all 4 wires. Then you need have a pile of 12ga **** in a box.
4 splices vs 2.
3 wires to terminate vs 2 on a device.
You need to cut the outer jacket and trim the wire vs just trimming the wire.
It's all time and more processes.
What happens when someone wants to add to the house? Pull another circuit or switch a light from another place? What do you do when you have complex setups like 4x3way switches in one box going to different lights? Sounds like a rats nest of wires and trying to ID them is a pain.
What happens if the wire breaks in the wall or gets too short from years of remodeling and you cant get a device on it? You can't just repull the wire. What about a remodel where you can just intercept a conduit and repull the circuit.
Codes are constantly changing. Devices are constantly changing. Conduit really lets people have more options. What are you romex guys going to do when arc fault circuits start taking off by you? It's now an NEC code to have just about every circuit in a house an arc fault. You can't share neutrals so the 14-3 wire is useless and you are now forced to run a bunch of 14-2 cables instead.
Romex works and is just as safe as conduit, but at the end of the day I doubt price difference is more than 5% in either direction. Obviously someone who doesn't work with conduit or thhn on a daily basis will take longer than if they are familiar with romex.
No one needs 500 hp in a car, but you know what, it sure is fun and I rather have it and not need it then need it and not have it
Cmreschke
Well-known member
^ not so much.
slodat
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I like my EMT.
wow ...
here in New Zealand and Australia conduit is ONLY ever used on cables that is subject to possible impact. conduits are NEVER run inside walls. if you suggested it youd be looked at like you were a nutter. conduit must be dirt cheap in the states because running a house in conduit would quadruple the cost of a house wire down here.
In a new house build most sparkies can do an entire prewire in a day, then just come back to do the fit off once the wall linings are on.
Cables are never clipped inside walls.
here in New Zealand and Australia conduit is ONLY ever used on cables that is subject to possible impact. conduits are NEVER run inside walls. if you suggested it youd be looked at like you were a nutter. conduit must be dirt cheap in the states because running a house in conduit would quadruple the cost of a house wire down here.
In a new house build most sparkies can do an entire prewire in a day, then just come back to do the fit off once the wall linings are on.
Cables are never clipped inside walls.
Cmreschke
Well-known member
^^^ this way also in Detroit area. A good strong union town also.
I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around this conduit in a house concept. Is it something like this picture? If so, that looks like 10 times the labor to me. Also hacks up the structure a lot more. Maybe it goes better with practice.
sberry
Banned
I stir the pot a little but agree with the rope pullers, much faster and cheaper.
alfredeneuman
Well-known member
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Pic 3 is NOT a rats nest of wires!
Spudland_Dave
Well-known member
I put a fair amount of Smurf into my new garage 3 years ago...not so much on the normal wiring like all my outlets, but I did install boxes in places "For future use", so I ran Smurf/ENT from the box out into the attic so down the road I can pull whatever I want into the box...also used it on a couple ceiling fan boxes, etc.. Mainly because I didn't know what I wanted to do, and wanted to get the insulation & sheetrock up & finished...now I can do whatever I want whenever...so I can sympathize with the Piping guys in that respect.
I hope to build another house in the future and I would strongly consider running ENT everywhere...
One thing which I doubt anybody will ever change my mind on....Metal Boxes are FAR Superior to Plastic...Period, end of story.. I cant say I'll ever get away from plastic boxes, but whenever possible, metal all the way.
One thing not discussed in the pictures posted in regards to cost calculations...I'm no pro sparky here...but it seems to me you cant run EMT from box to box Horizontally thru studs...you have to run them up into the ceiling/attic to move horizontally..so going up & down 8' every time would seem to add a whole lot of extra THHN and EMT to the cost where with Romex or ENT, studs can be drilled and boxes strung together "horizontally", saving a bunch of material in the process?
alfredeneuman
Well-known member
You CAN run EMT horizontally through studs....
You just have to cut it up into little lengths and use couplings.
Add Flexible Metal Conduit to the Romex and ENT list.
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You can run conduit horizontally. Just look at the picture above. In the ceiling joists theres a long run of conduit with no couplings. You can push it through studs, it does have some flex to it.
All this talk of conduit in single family, what do you romex guys do in commercial applications? Especially when you get to the bigger services? Here's a couple pictures I snapped today of one of the jobs we are doing. I am in the office full time now, but sometimes on the weekends I will work with the guys. I trimmed out this gear. 2500 amps @ 480v. Still waiting on some panels to show up so we can finish pulling the remainder. Cable sizes range from 750 mcm to 2/0. I don't think they make romex that big?
2015-10-14_05-20-18 by RoyBelluomini, on Flickr
Conduits all ready for wire. Each conduit will have about 6 circuits in them. That's a total of 8 wires. How do you make that work with romex? We don't need a ground because the conduit is the ground.
2015-10-14_05-17-33 by RoyBelluomini, on Flickr
800 amp, 208v panel with 2 x 200 amp next to it. Feeds some of the panels on the upper floors. The 2 panels to the right are for all the basement circuits.
2015-10-14_05-16-34 by RoyBelluomini, on Flickr
All this talk of conduit in single family, what do you romex guys do in commercial applications? Especially when you get to the bigger services? Here's a couple pictures I snapped today of one of the jobs we are doing. I am in the office full time now, but sometimes on the weekends I will work with the guys. I trimmed out this gear. 2500 amps @ 480v. Still waiting on some panels to show up so we can finish pulling the remainder. Cable sizes range from 750 mcm to 2/0. I don't think they make romex that big?
2015-10-14_05-20-18 by RoyBelluomini, on FlickrConduits all ready for wire. Each conduit will have about 6 circuits in them. That's a total of 8 wires. How do you make that work with romex? We don't need a ground because the conduit is the ground.
2015-10-14_05-17-33 by RoyBelluomini, on Flickr800 amp, 208v panel with 2 x 200 amp next to it. Feeds some of the panels on the upper floors. The 2 panels to the right are for all the basement circuits.
2015-10-14_05-16-34 by RoyBelluomini, on Flickr
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Speedy Petey
Well-known member
I fully agree.
People from Chicagoland will ALWAYS try to convince everyone else that their way is better. Nearly 30 years later I have yet to be convinced.
Speedy Petey
Well-known member
No, you just said "conduit". I was making the point that not all conduit is the same as far as the code is concerned.
alfredeneuman
Well-known member
As for me... I do basically commercial and industrial work.
I've installed EMT all my career of 45 years, and more than a few services of 3000 Amp, 480/277 Volt with very little residential NM work.
.......and I still hold that there is nothing wrong with NM in residential settings.
I've installed EMT all my career of 45 years, and more than a few services of 3000 Amp, 480/277 Volt with very little residential NM work.
.......and I still hold that there is nothing wrong with NM in residential settings.
Cmreschke
Well-known member
Yes it would .
Can you define "better"?
I am not trying to convince anyone that one way is better than the other....just for those romex people to look at it from our point of view.
Everyone hates conduit, but if a GC asked if you wanted NM or EMT for the same price, 99% of you guys would chose conduit. The 1% would chose NM out of spite
There are benefits to both.
Speedy Petey
Well-known member
What you fail to acknowledge is that some of us do not "hate" conduit, and have run miles of it (myself included). Some of us just do not see or agree with all the benefits being touted of using it in a wood framed residence.
alfredeneuman
Well-known member
I don't hate EMT at all but......
If a GC asked a customer if he wanted PVC coated rigid conduit (Robroy, Ocal) or EMT for the same price then the results would be pretty much the same.
RoyBell what's you opinion of flexible metal conduit for dwellings?
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KCarGuy
Well-known member
Chicago is Part of Cook County, which requires all Electric to be run in Conduit.
I live in Kane County, west of Chicago, which does not require conduit.
That being said, I was a Union Electrician for Chicago. Trained through a Chicago Trade School and served a four year Apprenticeship, before working in the Downtown Loop for 10 years.
My First House was in Cook County and as expected, was all done with Conduit.
any and all Electrical changes, additions or repairs were extremely easy and quick due to Having a Pipe (or raceway) to pull new wires (or additional wires) through.
No need to tear into walls or do drywall repairs.
(most of the time)
My second (current Home), is in Kane county. Where the requirements are "looser".
I am remodeling my Home, and tearing out all the old wiring as I go, putting in Conduit and running all new wiring. (Not because I have to, because I want to).
I have torn walls out and seen some bizarre things.
Because alot of homeowners thing its so easy to run romex and wire it up, Alot of times its done incorrectly, thus causing a potential future problem.
I have pulled out good romex that was "cut" due to a misplaced drywall screw or Nail.
I pulled out BX (a flexible metal jacketed type of conduit).
I have even removed some copper pipe with a rubber cord running through it.
Once I personally run conduit, tighten all the connectors, connect it and secure it correctly. Then Pull the correct sized wires, with a ground (not a big fan of using the metal as the only ground)...I can sleep better knowing that its done as Safe as possible.
When I built my Garage, I used hundreds of feet of conduit.
But, I tend to "Overbuild" or do just go a little farther when building stuff.
During the building process of my Garage, the Inspector stated that My Garage "was built better that most of the new Houses in the area"....Now that's Just Sad!
Conduit is not for everyone, But I was raised with It, Learned to work with it, and simply Prefer it.
I can tell you that most romex run out there has NOT been run or secured correctly.
Will you have a problem down the road...Maybe not (hopefully Not)
Im not trying to convince anyone which way is better, But this is the way I want my House and My Garage done.
I live in Kane County, west of Chicago, which does not require conduit.
That being said, I was a Union Electrician for Chicago. Trained through a Chicago Trade School and served a four year Apprenticeship, before working in the Downtown Loop for 10 years.
My First House was in Cook County and as expected, was all done with Conduit.
any and all Electrical changes, additions or repairs were extremely easy and quick due to Having a Pipe (or raceway) to pull new wires (or additional wires) through.
No need to tear into walls or do drywall repairs.
(most of the time)
My second (current Home), is in Kane county. Where the requirements are "looser".
I am remodeling my Home, and tearing out all the old wiring as I go, putting in Conduit and running all new wiring. (Not because I have to, because I want to).
I have torn walls out and seen some bizarre things.
Because alot of homeowners thing its so easy to run romex and wire it up, Alot of times its done incorrectly, thus causing a potential future problem.
I have pulled out good romex that was "cut" due to a misplaced drywall screw or Nail.
I pulled out BX (a flexible metal jacketed type of conduit).
I have even removed some copper pipe with a rubber cord running through it.
Once I personally run conduit, tighten all the connectors, connect it and secure it correctly. Then Pull the correct sized wires, with a ground (not a big fan of using the metal as the only ground)...I can sleep better knowing that its done as Safe as possible.
When I built my Garage, I used hundreds of feet of conduit.
But, I tend to "Overbuild" or do just go a little farther when building stuff.
During the building process of my Garage, the Inspector stated that My Garage "was built better that most of the new Houses in the area"....Now that's Just Sad!
Conduit is not for everyone, But I was raised with It, Learned to work with it, and simply Prefer it.
I can tell you that most romex run out there has NOT been run or secured correctly.
Will you have a problem down the road...Maybe not (hopefully Not)
Im not trying to convince anyone which way is better, But this is the way I want my House and My Garage done.
There are benefits and negatives to every method of every process. Some just have more benefits than others
I think comparing pvc coated conduit that has to be threaded and costs 10x as much to emt is a bit of a stretch. Conduit in walls doesn't deteriorate like conduit that is exposed to chemicals or moisture.
Flexible conduit like greenfield? I use it in concealed locations during remodels. It does have it's limitations. I don't care for the stuff beyond remodels. Commercial applications, obviously for laying in ceiling fixtures/devices and motors/transformers.
bingo. Anyone can slap the stuff in and make the light turn on at the end of the day. That doesn't mean it's done correctly or safely.
Ilikeike
ALLIANCE MEMBER
You can run conduit horizontally. Just look at the picture above. In the ceiling joists theres a long run of conduit with no couplings. You can push it through studs, it does have some flex to it.
All this talk of conduit in single family, what do you romex guys do in commercial applications? Especially when you get to the bigger services? Here's a couple pictures I snapped today of one of the jobs we are doing. I am in the office full time now, but sometimes on the weekends I will work with the guys. I trimmed out this gear. 2500 amps @ 480v. Still waiting on some panels to show up so we can finish pulling the remainder. Cable sizes range from 750 mcm to 2/0. I don't think they make romex that big?
Conduits all ready for wire. Each conduit will have about 6 circuits in them. That's a total of 8 wires. How do you make that work with romex? We don't need a ground because the conduit is the ground.
800 amp, 208v panel with 2 x 200 amp next to it. Feeds some of the panels on the upper floors. The 2 panels to the right are for all the basement circuits.
I mostly did industrial stuff myself. And still do all the trouble shooting at my facility.
It's a bit different running pipe for 480v equipment than throwing some rope rope for a extra outlet or can light in a house. I guess if I wanted to show off my bending skills I could run some strut and surface mount emt in the house. Instead of dropping some 14-2 down the wall.
Maybe next time.
Steve from Socal
Well-known member
Everything I do is in conduit, I helped a friend run some romex in garage. It was very cumbersome to work with and the boxes are horrid. I guess in new construction it is quicker and cheaper, call me a Luddite I will stick with EMT and THHN.
Steve
Steve
To me both EMT and Romex, have their uses, some better suited than others for different applications and reasons. Me personally I would primarily run Romex in the house, but surface mounted EMT in my shop.
Here's a point to ponder though. In some remodel work I did, I've pulled some existing romex out of walls to find the cable chewed by rodents (mice, squirrels, rats, etc) completely down to bare copper. This usually isn't a problem with inhabited buildings but can be a serious problem. I did the wiring in a hunting camp for my folks. It's in the woods and uninhabited most of the time. I'm not good enough with bending EMT to get EMT in the walls, so I used BX, and armored cable for the entire place. I would have preferred EMT but just didn't have the skill to install it.
If wiring a residence with EMT was cheaper (material and labor combined) than romex, then every tract home in the country would be using EMT. Whatever is cheapest and still meets code is what is most often used.
Brian
Here's a point to ponder though. In some remodel work I did, I've pulled some existing romex out of walls to find the cable chewed by rodents (mice, squirrels, rats, etc) completely down to bare copper. This usually isn't a problem with inhabited buildings but can be a serious problem. I did the wiring in a hunting camp for my folks. It's in the woods and uninhabited most of the time. I'm not good enough with bending EMT to get EMT in the walls, so I used BX, and armored cable for the entire place. I would have preferred EMT but just didn't have the skill to install it.
If wiring a residence with EMT was cheaper (material and labor combined) than romex, then every tract home in the country would be using EMT. Whatever is cheapest and still meets code is what is most often used.
Brian
BX and armored cable are the same thing, what is sold in big box stores is MC, metal clad cable, and their use is covered by a section in the NEC for each of them.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
BX is no longer made and was replaced by AC....
metaldad
Well-known member
another vote for conduit.
my residence and carage wiring is all in pipe, whether it's the old threaded piping some now deceased professional put in years ago, or the conduit i have since installed.
wouldn't do it any other way.
my residence and carage wiring is all in pipe, whether it's the old threaded piping some now deceased professional put in years ago, or the conduit i have since installed.
wouldn't do it any other way.
My Camper has NM run throughout, along with plastic water supply pipe. I am thinking of ripping it all out and installing conduit. What do you guys think?
2015-10-16_08-34-50 by RoyBelluomini, on Flickr
2015-10-16_08-34-50 by RoyBelluomini, on FlickrSteve from Socal
Well-known member
My Camper has NM run throughout, along with plastic water supply pipe. I am thinking of ripping it all out and installing conduit. What do you guys think?
I am in process of doing a service upgrade to my camper as we speak, from 50 amp to 100 amp and, I have been considering this!
My camper is a 42' Teton, I am replacing the gas stove with a 4 burner electric with an oven. The fridge is getting replaced with a french door residential and, the water heater is being replaced with a 16 gallon electric. I am removing all the gas equipment and going electric. I am looking at 240 volt electric dryers right now to include in the remodel.
The generator is going to be replaced with a 15~20KW diesel. The fridge will be tied to a dedicated inverter for travel.
Steve
42', wow. What do you tow that with?
100 amps? How are you going to get power at sites? I thought 50 amps was max?
Whats the idea of converting everything to electric? Seems like a lot of extra cost/weight.
Here's my 28' QB, single slide.
2015-06-09 22.41.20