confused about electric meters, please help

[confusedhomeowner]

I am a long time lurker but i never made a post.

anyways i know a lot of you have a lot of experience with building and contracting. This isn't a garage question per se, but the main house.

I am purchasing a new home, which is suppose to be a legal 2 family, but it only has one gas meter, electric meter and water meter.

I dont understand why....

The whole house is newly renovated and i dont know why he didnt just add the 2nd meter for it.

There is only 1 circuit breaker, 1 boiler, 1 heater.


If it was a 1 family beforehand, how much would it cost to get this done right to split everything into 2? permits, licenses, contractors etc....

I already have an accepted offer but if it cost a lot i will have to retract my offer, since my offer is pretty much what i have and i dont expect to do any renovations.

please help

 

[BFBOB]

I can't help you with the costs of splitting the house, but I'm assuming you intend to rent out half the house, right? If so, you could rent it utilities included, and increase the rent by the expected amount of the utilities. The UtilCos will give you estimates on the usage if prior bills are not available.

 

[confusedhomeowner]

i've known a few friends who are landlords and they all say it doesnt work. and they've been to court because the tenants argue over the usage and want to dispute the bill. They end up not paying rent and then its a long eviction case.

i will rent the other half out but i dont want to deal with tenant disputes...

if its 5k ok, i can do it, but if its 30-50k i cant.

 

[tankd0g]

It kind of depends on how the house is built. If it's not a duplex it's going to be pretty difficult. Each meter has to have its own panel, and you can't have any circuits shared between the two.

 

[JakeKohl]

Double check the zoning...there may be a reason there is only one meter. If it's zoned for single family that would be the reason it only has one service and to have multiple families on the property would be a problem.

 

[Scott r c]

I am guessing 10 to 15k. I am a plumbing contractor and have done similar jobs before.

 

[pmiranda]

Least hassle is to just say utilities are included in the rent and make sure you set it high enough to cover it. I have seen common costs like that before but it's frowned upon for obvious reasons.

 

[sickjuice]

if its 5k ok, i can do it, but if its 30-50k i cant.

Your looking at needing another gas meter, another boiler, another heater, second water meter, re-gig the plumbing to the respective meters, a second electrical service, and probably a partial rewire cause the circuits probably wont be split up.
For 5 grand? Really?

 

[LXCam]

If the other residence is on its own subpanel, you could install an emon/demon meter to monitor there usage and sub bill them yourself for under $600. But be aware the resale of utilities is not legal in some municipalities. As for water and gas, the water could be handled in a similar fashion, we do this all the time on job sites when filling water trucks off a hydrant. The gas, sorry I have never done this but flow meters are not very expensive.

As for splitting the services, where I'm located this is prohibited by the utilities. Only one utility meter is allowed per legal address.

 

[mds5951]

Sight unseen... Atleast 10k.

 

[nehog]

...
I already have an accepted offer but if it cost a lot i will have to retract my offer,...

I hope your contract has verbiage to allow you to retract!

As to costs, it is impossible to tell without doing some serious work... Too many unknowns.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Least hassle is to just say utilities are included in the rent and make sure you set it high enough to cover it. I have seen common costs like that before but it's frowned upon for obvious reasons.

That's my suggestion too. If you are the building owner and going to rent out half of it, make sure the rent will cover their usage costs.


Make sure the thermostat is on YOUR side and not theirs.

 

[Rickster55]

Have to agree with everyone above. Major costs are involved. I have never seen two water meters going to one structure. I have seen separate gas and electric meters but have to believe that was original to the houses. Splitting services, IMHO, is not an option.

 

[hh76]

Electrically, there could be a lot of work. How are the circuits split up, who knows? It would take at least a couple of expensive hours just to determine, and then you have to relocate them to another panel. Service swap alone usually runs in the 2-5 thousand range, so add that to the circuit wiring cost.

As others have said, just rent it out with utilities included. Take a look into legal language that could be included so that you don't run into issues such as them running a dozen space heaters 24hrs a day, killing you on electrical costs.

Side note: Renting is not just a free check in the mail, it can be expensive in the beginning. If budget is tight, be carefull that you don't get yourself into trouble, eg. prospective tenants won't pay until something is fixed, but you can't afford to fix it right now.

 

[pmiranda]

Assuming it's zoned multifamily (or here in Austin, a "single-family 3" zoning allows a duplex) it should be standard practice to have multiple meters. I'd suggest looking carefully at the zoning and usage laws in place for that property before signing. One saving grace is that an existing use is usually grandfathered in by the city (YMMV) but the neighboring landowners could be within their rights to sue to stop the usage.
Sorry if you've already been through all of that, but the lack of separate metering could be the tip of the iceberg, and realtors don't always know the letter of the law... they often just know what you can probably get away with, and the difference could get expensive.

Single meters may just help keep you under the radar unless your city starts restricting sub-leasing or rentals of single-family zoned properties. (Here in Austin they're trying to stop people from doing short-term rentals, which is funny because I think HomeAway started in Austin!?)

 

[mr2liam]

see below

 

[volvo]

..
Ask the city, then your insurance company if this would be legal & then when they tell you NO, bail....

 

[CNGsaves]

I presume this is east coast USA due to the boiler/steamer??

Cost is highly dependent on location . . . this in NY, or CT, or NJ or what?

You own this already, or just prospective house purchase you are looking at?

If you've already closed on house, did you get any lease agreement from prior owner for the tenants?? You plan on continuing renting to same tenants?

 

[confusedhomeowner]

I am in NY. Do not own the house yet. But we have an accepted offer and will go into contract as soon as I tell the lawyer. But I noticed the issue so I am stalling now. To get a estimate on the 2 meters.


I called the county clerk and she verifies its a 2 family and I won't have a problem putting in 2nd meter. Now its just the cost issue.

 

[confusedhomeowner]

There are no tenants upstairs yet. The owner purchased in 2012 fixed it up and flipping it.

 

[nehog]

Are you 'mr2liam' or 'confusedhomeowner'? You seem to be morphing names which is not good.

...
I've ask around and they say legal 2 family should have 2 meters and 2 accounts for electric if nothing else.

very confused in this process. but we have nothing in contract yet, so its all verbal now, they accepted our offer and let us have the house inspection but nothing is set yet.

1) nothing forces a two unit to have two meters. It is just a good idea to control (let your tennant pay) the utility bills. Otherwise you find them doing things like using electric heaters in the winter, window AC units in the summer and chewing up a lot of costly utilities.

2) No written contract means that you are talking and only talking. Either party can walk at any point, nothing lost, nothing gained. Of course, without a written contract do not put a deposit up! All real estate transactions must be in writing, typically consisting of an offer, counter offer, (repeated as long as both parties have issues to work out) and final acceptance.

I am in NY. Do not own the house yet. But we have an accepted offer and will go into contract as soon as I tell the lawyer. But I noticed the issue so I am stalling now. To get a estimate on the 2 meters.


I called the county clerk and she verifies its a 2 family and I won't have a problem putting in 2nd meter. Now its just the cost issue.

1) assuming the seller is ethical you should have no problems.

2) I don't think it will be a problem either. But to add a second meter you need to add a new panel, and the stuff outdoors (meter box) will either need adding to, or upgrading to a dual meter setup. Note: I don't think it is practical to split the heat and hot water. Just a WAG I'd guess a couple of thousand would cover the costs, the new panel can be right next to the existing one, with the relevant circuits just moved into the new box.

 

[dirttracker18]

I would never rent utilites included, ever.

Tenants that get pissy do dumb things like crank the heat and leave the windows open and other wasteful things.

I can't speak for your state but in Ontario if the tenant does something like, tap into the electrical for the purpose of a grow op, you are on the hook for the stolen electricity. The Electric company makes an estimate base on the size of the grow op and the legal person (name on the bill) is on the hook for that amount. It can be in the tens of thousands.

There are other crazy horror stories of utilities included issues as well, do a search and be forewarned.

The cost to split it all now will be much bigger then you want to spend.

Finally, once again states are different but here you cannot simply make an offer and retract it. The offer, once accepted, is a binding contract. You cannot walk away without cause. Best look into that first. You could ask the seller to let you out of the offer though, in writing.

 

[confusedhomeowner]

im both, i actually forgot that i made an account to ask about a garage diy issue, and i didnt know i was logged in that account. sorry about that.

I would most definitely only want the split the meter for electrical because you can not control how the tenant will react.

There was never any paperwork or binder issue. Its all verbal, right now the seller can get a bigger offer and say hey we dont want to sell the house to you anymore and we can not do anything about it.

 

[rsanter]

First ask the utility about a second meter. They may have rules that will not allow it for some reason

Second you need to try to trace the circuits of the house to see what is on what breakers. You may be lucky and find that the rooms are fairly divided already. Don't know till you try.

You sat there is only one heating cooling system? That is going to be the major expense I would think

Bob

 

[mr2liam]

see below

 

[rlitman]

Do you plan on renting to tenants you know and trust, or not?
If not, get the meter, and get the tenant's name on the bill. PERIOD!

Now if you do actually implicitly trust your renter (not a "nice" stranger), then go ahead and fold the approximate cost of utilities into the rent, and then deduct the renter's fractional cost of utilities you pay from your taxes on your schedule E. BIG savings to be had here.

 

[CNGsaves]

there is one steam heat furnace thing that is connected to all the rooms in the whole house, there is only one unit.

also there isnt any heating in the bathrooms.

i was reading the village code and if im renting out i am suppose to provide heat in the bathroom?

So now you're flip flopping between 2 different GJ logins every 12 minutes??

I'd suggest NOT using this mr2liam login for this thread !!! Got to stick with your ConfusedHomeowner as the OP for this thread.

Cut-n-paste the . . . mr2liam . . . replies and put them into a new post by ConfusedHomeowner. Then go DELETE all those posts by mr2liam.

You buying this house for cash?? Have you ever bought a house before?? How old are you??

 

[confusedhomeowner]

Thank you all for your replies, i will try to answer everyone's question. I really appreciate your advice on this.

It was a cape when it was built but converted to a 2 family in the 1970s. They added an addition in the back to accommodate 2 more rooms. (i've seen the land record /deed/title card it says legal 2 family duplex) If they have this would zoning be an issue?

The inspector say all the wires and the panel are new. Upstairs and Downstairs has separate entrances, but all the wires goes into the basement into one big panel.

The basement only has 1 of everything... 1 boiler, 1 furnace steam heater. The inspector said i can split the panel into 2 in the basement easily but he failed to mention the meter part.

He also said splitting the heat upstairs and downstairs with a steam heat will cost anywhere between 10k to 15k because it being steam. I thought that since the pipes are in place, we can just put in a 2nd heater and route it to the pipes that go upstairs.

I asked the realtor and they thought it had 2 meters as well, but when i pointed out to the side of the house they said oh its only 1 meter. (leads me to believe that there's something going on.)

I've ask around and they say legal 2 family should have 2 meters and 2 accounts for electric if nothing else.

very confused in this process. but we have nothing in contract yet, so its all verbal now, they accepted our offer and let us have the house inspection but nothing is set yet.

there is one steam heat furnace thing that is connected to all the rooms in the whole house, there is only one unit.

also there isnt any heating in the bathrooms.

i was reading the village code and if im renting out i am suppose to provide heat in the bathroom?

i actually have no idea why it keeps switching the username back and forth. Its very weird. I never changed login's its automatically saved. I will copy and paste.

this is my first home, and we are getting a mortgage, but we are putting some cash down. I have no experience in buying a home. I am 26.

 

[nehog]

...
Finally, once again states are different but here you cannot simply make an offer and retract it. The offer, once accepted, is a binding contract. You cannot walk away without cause. Best look into that first. You could ask the seller to let you out of the offer though, in writing.

For real estate: the contract or offer/acceptance must be in writing. If not written then there is no contract. An oral contract is not a binding contract for a real estate transaction.