"Consolidating" breakers

[Mike F]

I am trying to add new circuits to an existing breaker box. I have a 60 amp feed from my house to a detached garage. I have methodically plugged a drop light into all receptacles , watched lights, etc, to map out which breakers control what outlets, lights, and the like (it would have been nice if the previous owner would have labeled things, but no such luck). One or two of the breakers go to receptacles that are no longer, nor will they ever be used- for example where there used to be an outdoor counter area near the cabana which no loners exists. I need to add (2) 220V lines in the garage for compressor and tablesaw (which won't be used at the same time, so no overload problems). I have 2 questions:

1- can I just pull the unused wires from the breaker and box/ground and cap them off, leaving them in the breaker box or pushing them back into the EMT, which has other hot wires running in it?

2-I have found 2 20A breakers which control (2) 2-bulb flourescent light fixtures each, but which are not near each other (one in the garage front, the other in the attic, rear). Can I "consolidate" the runs by putting both of the hot wires to one breaker, or is putting 2 wires to 1 breaker a no no?

Doing one or preferably both of these things will give me enough space in the breaker box for me to make 2 new runs without buying a new box.

 

[thecarfarmer]

When I was having a house inspected (Seattle WA area), the guy called 2 wires into 1 breaker a 'double tap', and indicated that it is not to code in this area.

I suppose you could keep the wiring from one breaker to one of the lights, and jump from one light to the other, and that would (I think) meet codes for most areas, as long as wires used were acceptable for current draw of circuit.

But I'm NOT even close to being an expert. BTTT for someone who is?

-bill

 

[bmwpower]

1- You can unhook and cap the wires. A better practice would be to completely eliminate the wires - makes things cleaner and leaves less questions for the next guy to work on the electric...as you've now found out.

2- You can put 2 wires to a breaker IF the breaker has provisions for a 2 wire hook up. Some breakers do.

Remember, you need 12 gauge wire on a 20A circuit. If the wire used to connect those lights to power is 14 gauge, you'll need to swap the breaker for a 15A.

 

[Gummi Bear]

Are you saying that you have 2 - 4' strip lights that are on dedicated circuits each?

If so, yes, you can combine them, and have a spare circuit in the ceiling to run where you might want to.

As for disconnecting the old outdoor kitchen receptacles, removing the wire to eliminate confusion is best, but you can cap them off, and label them if it's a PITA to remove them.

 

[Mike F]

There are (2) 8'strip lights on each of those circuits, so the wattage is still low enough to combine them. As to the eliminated wires, I may just cut them at the entry to the box, cap, label, and push them back into the EMT.
BMW-do you know if they make thin breakers with a 2 wire hookup? I will look around. These are GE TQP/ TQHP breakers.

 

[bmwpower]

BMW-do you know if they make thin breakers with a 2 wire hookup? I will look around. These are GE TQP/ TQHP breakers.

Not sure if they make thin breakers with a 2 wire hookup, but they apparently make mini breakers, which will allow you to fit 2 breakers in one space. Check Home Depot or other big box store:

http://cgi.ebay.com/GE-circuit-breakers_W0QQitemZ180045025423QQihZ008QQcategoryZ104232QQcmdZViewItem

 

[Vermaraj]

You can also get a double breaker which is two independent breakers that fit in one regular slot.

Generally speaking leaving unlanded wires in a box is allowed if they are continuous, labeled and protected from accidental contact. The problem arises if the branch circuit does not have an independent ground and neutral.

If you can verify that the outlet has a ground & neutral wire that goes directly to the breaker panel then all 3 wires can be disconnected and left in the box labeled as spares.

If the ground and neutral are being used by other circuits the wire should be disconnected and removed from the unused outlet.

pushing wires back into the conduit is a code violation

 

[Gummi Bear]

You won't find any breakers fitting in a residential panel that allow double lugging, and carry a UL listing (some will facilitate it, but they are not listed to do so).

Breakers rated for this are typically industrial in nature.


The type of breaker that BMW is describing is also referred to as a 'tandem' or from some manufacturers as a 'piggy back' style of breaker. What is shown in the Ebay link are simply a thin breaker, and will fit many modern GE loadcenters.

Remember - no matter what you do, the maximum number of poles allowed in a given panel is 42. You can add tandems until your heart's content, so long as they don't exceed that magic number.

 

[jarhead]

You won't find any breakers fitting in a residential panel that allow double lugging, and carry a UL listing (some will facilitate it, but they are not listed to do so).

Breakers rated for this are typically industrial in nature.


The type of breaker that BMW is describing is also referred to as a 'tandem' or from some manufacturers as a 'piggy back' style of breaker. What is shown in the Ebay link are simply a thin breaker, and will fit many modern GE loadcenters.

Remember - no matter what you do, the maximum number of poles allowed in a given panel is 42. You can add tandems until your heart's content, so long as they don't exceed that magic number.

Could you elaborate on this a little more?

The reason I ask is I have a 200 amp panel in the house and a 100 amp running off the 200 in the garage. It was inspected and approved by the state when I put it in.

I am curious what the maximum number of breakers are that I can put in each panel. I assume I cant just fill them both up.

I used 12 ga for 20A and 14 for 15A. Outlets are on 20 and lights are on 15.

Thanks, joe

 

[Charles (in GA)]

NEC only allows for 42 breakers in one panelboard. If you have a main, that is two, leaving you 40. Thats it, thats the code, period. If you buy a panelboard like the one I have, with space for a 40 full size breakers, it is not legal (and not possible) to install the tandem breakers. My Seimens panel would have to have little notches in the stabs for tandem breakers to fit properly, there are not notches. People have been known to modify the tandem breakers by breaking out the clip or solid area that prevents the breaker from seating correctly, but of course, that is not legal either.

Some panels (200amp) have only space for 30 full size breakers, but have notches in the stabs so that ten tandem breakers can be installed, bringing the total up to 40 (plus the two for the main, if installed).

The breaker protecting your subfeed (100amp) will trip when you exceed 100 amp on your subpanel so there is really no limit on the size or number of breakers in the sub panel. The 100 amps is the most you would be allowed to tap off the 200 amp panel to supply another panel.

Charles

Charles

 

[jarhead]

NEC only allows for 42 breakers in one panelboard. If you have a main, that is two, leaving you 40. Thats it, thats the code, period. If you buy a panelboard like the one I have, with space for a 40 full size breakers, it is not legal (and not possible) to install the tandem breakers. My Seimens panel would have to have little notches in the stabs for tandem breakers to fit properly, there are not notches. People have been known to modify the tandem breakers by breaking out the clip or solid area that prevents the breaker from seating correctly, but of course, that is not legal either.

Some panels (200amp) have only space for 30 full size breakers, but have notches in the stabs so that ten tandem breakers can be installed, bringing the total up to 40 (plus the two for the main, if installed).

The breaker protecting your subfeed (100amp) will trip when you exceed 100 amp on your subpanel so there is really no limit on the size or number of breakers in the sub panel. The 100 amps is the most you would be allowed to tap off the 200 amp panel to supply another panel.

Charles

Charles

Thanks Charles, that was very interesting.

Although I do know how to run circuits and size them I dont understand all the rules. I usually hire an electrician if I have any doubt.

Joe

 

[PAToyota]

The electrical engineers I deal with usually size panels no more than 1/2 to 2/3 "full" so that there is extra capacity for future expansion. In a house or garage, you can likely get away with having things "fuller" because you aren't likely to be using everything all at once. But it is generally still a good idea to not run up against total capacity.

 

[PAToyota]

I used 12 ga for 20A and 14 for 15A. Outlets are on 20 and lights are on 15.

Especially in a shop, I tend to step up a size for circuits over what is required - 10ga. for 20amp and 12ga. for 15amp. Between using power tools with high amp draws and voltage drops it is a good idea. Remember that the NEC is actually minimum requirements.

 

[mike944]

Not sure if they make thin breakers with a 2 wire hookup, but they apparently make mini breakers, which will allow you to fit 2 breakers in one space..........

to combine your 2 flourescent lights at opposite ends of the house, into one breaker, you should "pigtail" them. inside the fusebox, wire-nut them together, along with a 3rd wire, that goes to the single breaker.

Double-breakers usually require a panel specially rated to handle double-breakers. Yes, you can modify the double-breaker very easily to fit into a panel not designed for double-breakers, but you're not supposed to.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

After rereading my post, I thought I'd clairify a thing or two.

First, NEC 408.35 says that the max is 42 breakers EXCLUDING the main breakers. I had said in the earlier post that the 42 included the mains, which was incorrect.

A 240V breaker is two breakers riveted together (unless you are using Square D, in which the two pole breaker is a one piece housing) and the handles ganged together. The NEC considers this TWO breakers for the purposes of total breaker count in the panel. (ref NEC 408.35) If you were using a three phase panel, you would have three breakers ganged together to open and close as one, but it still would be three breakers for the purposes of counting them. Even with the big huge 3 phase panelboards at work, with the huge breakers, if you count , you still end up with 42 max.

The very best thing you can do for yourself if you intend on doing your own wiring, is to purchase two books. The current version of the NEC, which is, right now, the 2005 version. Secondly, obtain a copy of the "Illustrated Guide to the National Elecrtical Code" by Charles Miller. I purchased these two books together for $122 from Amazon and they have been well worth it. Other useful books are Ugly's Electrical Guide and a flip book called "Code Check Electrical". All will be useful and give you code references you can look up in the real NEC.

Charles

 

[Mike F]

This is all great info. Very informative. I suppose I will pigtail the 2 fluorescent lights in the breaker box. One other question. I have seen where for a 240V breaker (2) single pole breakers are put side by side and the breaker handles are joined by a makeshift pin- usually a cutoff nail or the like. I am not planning on doing this, since I don't want to take any chances, but is this up to code?

 

[bmwpower]

You won't find any breakers fitting in a residential panel that allow double lugging, and carry a UL listing (some will facilitate it, but they are not listed to do so).

Breakers rated for this are typically industrial in nature.

Not true. This is a picture of one of my SquareD QO breakers, single pole, 20A to be exact. You can see where the connection of 2 wires is possible. It also explains this on the side of the breaker, in diagram form. This breaker is not a "commercial" breaker - just a regular QO breaker from Home Depot.

 

[Bolt11]

Square D QO breakers are their commercial/industrial line. There Homeline is for residential, etc. I am a big fan of the QO's. If I built a house it would be QO all the way.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Not true. This is a picture of one of my SquareD QO breakers, single pole, 20A to be exact. You can see where the connection of 2 wires is possible. It also explains this on the side of the breaker, in diagram form. This breaker is not a "commercial" breaker - just a regular QO breaker from Home Depot.

I wanted to say the same thing, I was sure I'd seen breakers designed like this, but couldn't remember where, and I wasn't going to speak up unless I had some solid facts to go on. I spend alot of time just browsing at HD and Lowes in the electrical section. I pick up stuff and look at it and put it back, just compairing design and quality of construction.

I have a Square D panel in the house and dispise it for several reasons, largely the ground and neutral bars are very short and the holes close together, very difficult to work in. Mine also uses the QO breakers and this is where I've seen the double wire lugs. QO panels are quite common in houses, the Homeline stuff is cheap, second rate and cheesy in compairson to the rest of the Sq D line.(I still don't like Square D, but it IS good quality stuff).

Personally I prefer Siemens or GE. GE panels are galvanized and thus a good thing for use in shops and garages, especially if they are not climate controled.

When I wired my "shop" (aircraft hangar) I used a huge Siemens main lug panel with 40 full size breaker positions. The disconnect is right outside and you actually can stand in the doorway and touch both the outside meter/service disconnect and inside circuit breaker panel, so I elected to forgo the main breaker in the panel. This panel has full height ground and neutral bars and is quite easy to work with.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Stumbled into a couple of tid bits of "infomation" on the web. Take it for what its worth.

One web site, a home inspection site has the following.........

http://www.accuspect.net/Gradtool.html

The Square-D company, is the only electrical panel at this writing which is designed to allow for connecting two wires to one circuit breaker……however, this is not called double lugging.
Double lugging is actually considered to be a reportable condition and potential fire hazard and consists of two wires on any other panel which is not designed for this where the screw is trying to hold two wires without a square washer. Square D will not however, state that their breakers can be double lugged.
The reason that Square D is not admitting to double lugging is because their breakers are not double lugged when two wires are connected. Sure two wires are connected to the breaker, but this does not mean that it is double lugged. Double lugging can be a bad thing and can be responsible for wires pulling away from the lug (screw) holding the wiring, overheated wiring and in some cases fires. Square D breakers that are rated for two wire connections say so right on the breaker. Seeing two wires connected to the Square D is not a reportable condition. It is a safe condition as long as both wires are of the same size and type.

As for the other manufacturers, they have preferred to stay with the single wire connecting breakers. When two wires are connected to them, they are double tapped (lugged in slang terms) and the installation is not approved and should be repaired.(corrected).

Also, NEC 110.14(A) states ... "terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used to connect aluminum shall be so identified."

Charles

 

[bmwpower]

Good info Charles.