Consolodating a Square D Panel?

[mpire]

Ok, so I have a regular old crappy electrical panel.

It was full when they built the house, didn't leave any room for expansion!

I wanted to run a 230 for the compressor, but ended up just hooking it up to the dryer plug. I don't run both at the same time.

So now the time comes to add an mini-split to combat the extreme summer heat during the summers when I spend so much time in the garage.

So the mini split will be on the complete opposite side of the house. I assume I will have to go up to the attic and then back down. I am using the small one, but I figured I had better ask a couple questions.

1) What size wire should I run for the A/C? (230v/60 hz)

2) Any ideas on how to consolidate the square D breakers enough to fit in another breaker for the new A/C?

 

[fefarms]

You can replace a couple of the existing breakers with tandem breakers. This will free up two slots so that you can add a two-pole breaker for the mini-split. The exact style of breaker you need depends on the model number of your current panel.

We'd need to know the BTU/Hour of the mini-split to even hazard a guess at the wire size. Of course, the full load amps and locked rotor amps for the AC would allow more accurate estimating.

 

[mrb]

thats assuming the panel can take tandems. I see an old tandem, probably a non ctl or something that probably doesnt belong in this panel. look at the model of the panel, if you see something like 3030 it cant have tandems, if you see 3040 it can (or 2030) 30 space 40 circuit for example.

from the looks of things its time for a subpanel (if your existing panel and or service is not overloaded (overloaded = too much load based on load calc, not physically stuffed full of breakers)

 

[mpire]

Ok, so where does one find the panel model number?

Heres the info for the small mini-split.

Model Number KFR-25GW/BMVE
Style Ductless Mini Split AC With Heat Pump
Compressor Hitachi (Made In Japan)
Refrigerant R410 A (Pre-Charged)
Cooling Capacity 9000 BTU
Heating Capacity 9500 BTU
Air Flow 500 m3/h
Power Supply 230 V / 60 Hz
Input Power 641W (cooling) / 770W (heating)
Input Current 2.98A (cooling) / 3.53A (heating)
SEER 18.2
HSPF 9.3
Sound Level 41dB-high 31dB-Low (indoor) / 51dB (outdoor)
Moisture Removal L/hr 0.88
Min Operating Temperature - 10 C / 14 F
Control System Control System Digital Multifunction infrared
Remote control with indoor unit
Dynamic digital LED display
Net Weight 24.2lbs (indoor) 81.4lbs (outdoor)
Dimensions 32 X 11 X 9 in (indoor unit)
30 X 21 X 10 in (outdoor unit)
Warranty 1 Year on Parts / 5 Years on Compressor

Here is the only details I got on the Panel without taking the cover off...

And with the cover off...

 

[fefarms]

The A/C load is dinky. A 20 amp circuit with 12AWG wire is fine. It would also work fine on 14AWG, but I wouldn't go to all the trouble of running the new circuit at 14AWG for the small resulting savings. You might as well cater to the possibility of something else using the circuit down the road.

Your panel is clearly successfully using a tandem breaker in the bottom left position as you can see two hot wires going to it. Although I can't tell the exact model, it's a 200 amp panel and your 240 volt loads don't look that high. It is very likely you could put in some more QOT breakers and free up two spaces.

Read about QOT breakers here:
http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Ci...rs/QO-QOB Circuit Breakers/0730CT9801R108.pdf

 

[aandpdan]

Wouldn't it be easier to put a small subpanel in and pick up a few circuits off the main panel. Then you will have room for expansion in the future too.

 

[cowboyjosh]

Tandems will work in modern day SQD QO panels and are available at your local big box but they cost more then 2x a normal QO breaker. SQD QO panels are top shelf equipmenr, at this point though i suggest a sub panel, of course i always suggest QO equipment so it matches the main panel. QO panels are tough to find at bix box stores so you might have to goto a local distributor.

 

[mrb]

Tandems will work in modern day SQD QO panels and are available at your local big box but they cost more then 2x a normal QO breaker. SQD QO panels are top shelf equipmenr, at this point though i suggest a sub panel, of course i always suggest QO equipment so it matches the main panel. QO panels are tough to find at bix box stores so you might have to goto a local distributor.

not all QO panels can take tandems afaik

for example in the 30 space version of the OP's panel, there are two part numbers, QO130L200G and QO13040L200G i take it the first is a 30/30 which couldnt not take tandems, and the second as a 30/40 which could.

to the OP look for one of the two model numbers listed above. the labels you have shown only show the p/n of the cover and the metal box.

 

[mpire]

This is the only other sticker inside the panel. I can't shut off the house power while I am working so I am not going to go touching any wires. Any ideas?

 

[mrb]

read the right side of that sticker that you cut off in the photo. it discusses tandem breakers.

 

[mpire]

read the right side of that sticker that you cut off in the photo. it discusses tandem breakers.

Ok, well, basically I can put a single tandem on the bottom of the right row, and on the left row I can put a tandem on the bottom 4 at least.

Thats what the "=" means vs the "-" on the picture.

So now I need to go pick up some tandem breakers and a 20 amp 230 breaker from Lowes and figure out how to fish some 12 ga wire up into my attic and back down on the other side of the house. Thats going to be the biggest challenge by far.

Any reason I shouldn't kill the breaker on the electric panel outside to make sure I have all the power off before I touch these things?

 

[ishiboo]

Ok, well, basically I can put a single tandem on the bottom of the right row, and on the left row I can put a tandem on the bottom 4 at least.

Thats what the "=" means vs the "-" on the picture.

So now I need to go pick up some tandem breakers and a 20 amp 230 breaker from Lowes and figure out how to fish some 12 ga wire up into my attic and back down on the other side of the house. Thats going to be the biggest challenge by far.

Any reason I shouldn't kill the breaker on the electric panel outside to make sure I have all the power off before I touch these things?

It'd be a good idea if you are inexperienced. It's easy to change out a breaker and run a wire without touching anything "hot" if you know what you're doing, if not, I'd shut it off outside.

As others said that is a QO which is a good box, not a "regular old crappy panel"... it's basically the top of the line residential panel. It's also neatly wired. It's also been manufactured in more or less the same setup since the 50s or early 60s... and breakers, parts, etc. are available EVERYWHERE. Pretty common around here for homes built in the 60s/70s to look like that. Keep that box no matter what, if you run out of room for tandems you can look at consolidating some circuits and then adding a small QO as a sub-panel.

Unlike cowboy said, around here all the big box stores carry QO, Homeline and CH for the most part. By the time you have a problem finding a QO breaker, all of the other breakers will have been gone for 30 years

 

[mrb]

when moving circuits around, pay attention to what youre doing and keep the circuits on the phases theyre on now. In other words dont combine two adjacent breakers onto a tandem, and dont move a circuit from phase a to phase b unless you have fully checked everything out.

 

[cowboyjosh]

It'd be a good idea if you are inexperienced. It's easy to change out a breaker and run a wire without touching anything "hot" if you know what you're doing, if not, I'd shut it off outside.

As others said that is a QO which is a good box, not a "regular old crappy panel"... it's basically the top of the line residential panel. It's also neatly wired. It's also been manufactured in more or less the same setup since the 50s or early 60s... and breakers, parts, etc. are available EVERYWHERE. Pretty common around here for homes built in the 60s/70s to look like that. Keep that box no matter what, if you run out of room for tandems you can look at consolidating some circuits and then adding a small QO as a sub-panel.

Unlike cowboy said, around here all the big box stores carry QO, Homeline and CH for the most part. By the time you have a problem finding a QO breaker, all of the other breakers will have been gone for 30 years

Its amazing on the inventory differences at the big box stores in different parts of the country.

 

[cowboyjosh]

One thing I noticed with the QO panel pic above, wheres the AFCI's? Bring that box up to code.

Just being a smart ***.

 

[Norcal]

One thing I noticed with the QO panel pic above, wheres the AFCI's? Bring that box up to code.

Just being a smart ***.

While AFCI's are code now, still consider them snake oil, would not have complained if GFCI's had been expanded to all receptacles, they are cheap & reliable.

 

[rodm1]

Looks like you have a double tap neutral if sow thats a no no.

 

[-JP]

While AFCI's are code now, still consider them snake oil, would not have complained if GFCI's had been expanded to all receptacles, they are cheap & reliable.

While I agree with your "snake oil" comment, Let's be careful about stating what is code.

With all the rookies from all over the country reading these post, it is good practice to state what is in the NEC instead of saying what is required for a particular installation.

Not sure of the OP's (Florida) code requirements but AFCI devices are NOT required anywhere in the state of Indiana. Yes, amazing as it sounds, occasionally the politicians actually listen to some of us and do the right thing every now and then.

Hate to have someone read this post and make an expensive investment in snake oil when they don't need to.

JP

 

[sberry]

We lost track a bit here. The situation is basic and there are a couple ways to solve this. Either would work, combine a couple unused circuits, generals or lighting even, esspecially with the advent of new fixtures. This all takes some care, add some tandems if allowed but I might and a big reason is because I can,,,,, but would be inclined to add on another panel, move a couple things and put new equipment on it. A side benefit (or even primary concern) would be that I would ideally locate it, it doesn't got to be near the one you got now, can go garage, etc, the AC isn't much of an issue but needs a couple spaces as does the comp and these days a couple utility circuits for new or power tools and a small welder isn't out of the question or even the ability to run a buzz box in a pinch. Put a new panel where its most convenient and power is needed.

 

[sberry]

This isn't a case where you need substantial more power, its really more breaker spaces. I wouldn't want to bother running any new wires to a panel that is already short of spaces, still left without room for any new equipment.
I have a case myself, 3 options to run a new piece. 2 of them it will fill the panels and the 3rd is already full and could use 2 spaces as it stands. I am going to bite the bullet, same wire but change out the full panel from 8 to 20 spaces and be done with the end result being that things end up how I really want them in the end anyway.