Construction method recommendation needed: 30x56x14 garage

[gisforgerten]

Hey all,
I've been lurking on this forum for some years, but finally had a need for advice.
I have a plan to build a 30x56 garage to be used for storage (lawn equipment, boat, trailers, etc in the winter) and for a wood working shop. I'd like to build it large enough to fit an RV or 5th wheel - as this may be in our future, or is atleast a very sellable feature (in Minnesota).
To fit an RV, my understanding is that a 14' tall door is recommended. I plan to build the garage with 14' sidewalls, and with scissor trusses - I wanted to keep height as low as possible as it will be built nearby the south side of my house, and I don't want to risk shading the roof mounted solar panels on the house.

I used Menards' Post Frame Design & Buy tool, put plans together, and submitted it to my city for permits. - I was denied.
The zoning states that 'galvanized steel buildings' cannot be built on lots under 5 acres (Mine is slightly under 2). I tried to resubmit to change the sizing to vinyl, but was still denied as they consider all post frame buildings to be 'galvanized steel buildings' regardless of what the exterior actually looks like

I applied for a variance - since almost half of my neighborhood has galvanized steel garages already, all on lots under 5 acres. I was denied again. (and I'm out $750 for the application)

Now I'm stuck with stick building. I've been told by several people that I would need to build with 2x6 spaced on 12" center or possibly 2x8 depending on my wind exposure category, along with horizontal blocking every 4' for a 14' tall stick build ( https://www.revisor.mn.gov/rules/1309.0602/)

What would you do in this situation?

If I were to pour a 4' tall ICF knee wall, could I use 2x6 spaced on 24" for the next 10'?

 

[kj_mustang]

14' tall door going on the sidewall or gable end? If sidewall, it is not tall enough as you need room for the header board.

 

[brownbagg]

do a 14 foot ICF

 

[billconner]

I'm not where I can open code but think you can go 12' with 2x6 24 oc. for bearing walls, 20' non bearing. So frost wall extends 2' above slab? Rest of foundation and energy requirements for your climate might affect this a little.

 

[reader2580]

I had a structural engineer figure out the requirements for a 40x60 garage with 16 foot sidewalls for my property in Anoka county, Minnesota. The engineer said I need to have a minimum of 2x8 on 16" centers. At least I didn't need engineered lumber or 12" centers.

The city I live in also requires five acres minimum for a pole barn.

 

[gisforgerten]

14' tall door going on the sidewall or gable end? If sidewall, it is not tall enough as you need room for the header board.

Thats why I'm using scissor trusses - with a 12' wide door I'll be at 15.5' at the edge of the door opening

do a 14 foot ICF

I was thinking of 4' ICF so that I can pour it right from the truck without a pumper, and so that I can brace with stakes and 2x4 rather than specialized braces.
I did my house as ICF - and would highly recommend it for any living space, but it gets costly and complicated when pouring tall walls.

So frost wall extends 2' above slab?

I would pour as a monolithic slab (actually a Frost Protected Shallow Foundation - FPSF), and then pour 4' ICF on top of that.

 

[billconner]

ICFs might make sense if insulating and heating. How high seems like based on max 2x6 stud allowable - I think 12' in bearing walls. Gable walls can be 2 X6 up to 20' iirc.

 

[gisforgerten]

ICFs might make sense if insulating and heating.

I'll be insulating, but only heating/air conditioning periodically. And typically only the woodworking shop

Does my original thought make sense though? If I build a 10' wood wall on top of a 4' high concrete knee wall, I can follow the code for stud spacing for a 10' rather than 14'?

 

[rsanter]

Seems like you have a few options to look at.

Yes you can do an ICF stem wall and then built stick framing from there. You could also look at ICF to the full heigh of the walls and then go roof trus on that.
Do a price comparison and build in the factor that you can stack the ICF pieces yourself.

You can also do SIP structural insulated panels.
They are two pieces of OSB with Hugh density foam between them, they have a lap joint at the ends to join em and yes they can hold the roof trusses up.
You pay more up front but can save if you are standing and assembling them yourself

What about starting with the post and beam as you are and then fill in between with standard stick framing? Will they buy that?


Added idea.
How about you build a shop in a shop?
If you don't need the area for the storage, RV, and boat to be insulated. What if you built a working bay within the structiure for the wood shop. Then you could heat and cool that space to your needs

 

[gisforgerten]

How about you build a shop in a shop?
If you don't need the area for the storage, RV, and boat to be insulated. What if you built a working bay within the structiure for the wood shop. Then you could heat and cool that space to your needs

This is what I was planning to do. The storage area could then be insulated later if desired. I live in a wooded area, so myself and neighbors have enough dying trees to keep a wood stove burning happily for years.

One other big downfall with ICF full height is the difficulty in making new windows, additions, or conduit penetrations in the future.

 

[rsanter]

This is what I was planning to do. The storage area could then be insulated later if desired. I live in a wooded area, so myself and neighbors have enough dying trees to keep a wood stove burning happily for years.

One other big downfall with ICF full height is the difficulty in making new windows, additions, or conduit penetrations in the future.

Yes it's harder to do new windows or such but my friend had a ICF house and shop and has hired a concrete saw guy to make the cut he needed. Plus he has a great concrete drill for the smaller stuff.
It's all options

 

[billconner]

If you want the ability to heat entire building, SFPF and ICF to high enough that you can stick frame is valid. Then do you put in PEX for radiant heat throughout?

 

[kwb]

Don't plan to store yard **** in a shop. Get a shed for that.

Cost/sf to store that **** is way too high and it will always be in the way in the shop. Simple but nice shed is what? ~$20/sf, Shop build is probably going to be running up to $50/sf+ in today's prices.

If you aren't doing ICF all the way up I am not sure I would bother with them, just go with a "normal" stem wall and put framing on it. Pretty sure that the wood framing will still beat cost of concrete even with tighter spacing or larger lumber.

I get that it is cold in MN but it is a shop and unless you are going to leave it heated all the time you probably have zero payback on insulation if you figure the actual hours that you need to heat the space.

 

[billconner]

I don't know laws in every state but here in NY, if you're heating it, you have to insulate. No choice.

 

[racecougar]

What about the panelframe method? It goes up super quick, as the panels are typically factory-built off-site, it utilizes commercial/bookshelf girts which makes sheeting the exterior and interior a snap, it's very strong, can easily do 14' walls, would be less costly than traditional "stick built", and so on.

https://bblusa.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/BBL_PanelFrame.pdf

 

[mrpizza]

That "panel frame" style is how I am going to build my detached garage at the new house. It will be nice to insulate the wall cavity and have a flush surface inside and out for wall sheathing/siding outside and drywall inside.

 

[racecougar]

That "panel frame" style is how I am going to build my detached garage at the new house. It will be nice to insulate the wall cavity and have a flush surface inside and out for wall sheathing/siding outside and drywall inside.

Exactly. Insulating my walls only took me a few hours, as the cavities are the same size as the pre-cut batts. It was just a matter of plugging the batts into the cavities.

Owens Corning R-19 Faced Fiberglass Insulation Batt 23 in. x 93 in. (1 Bag) E54 - The Home Depot

Keep your insulation firmly in place by using this Owens Corning R Faced Fiberglass Insulation Batt.

www.homedepot.com

Sheeting it all was simple as well.

 

[kwb]

I don't know laws in every state but here in NY, if you're heating it, you have to insulate. No choice.

Geeez - Nobody said the heat has to be installed before the final inspection.

 

[billconner]

Panel frame sure doesn't look much different than post frame.

 

[billconner]

Just follow up on stud length using prescriptive code requirements: 10' but exception to allow 12' if "The building shall be located in Exposure B, the roof live load shall not exceed 20 psf (0.96 kPa), and the ground snow load shall not exceed 30 psf (1.4 kPa). Studs and plates shall be No. 2 grade lumber or better." Go performance based, and whatever engineer or architect will stamp.

It is regrettable that structural systems are used to determine if its a "galvanized steel buildings".

 

[racecougar]

Panel frame sure doesn't look much different than post frame.

Look harder? Yes, there are similarities, but it is significantly different from typical post-frame construction.

 

[38Chevy454]

If you really planning for RV, you need a 14 ft high door. Tallest RVs are 13.5 ft height.

Your local code should dictate what is required as far as the construction 2x6 vs 2x8 and what center dimensions. But to fit the 14 ft door, you might consider 16 ft high walls instead of 14 ft.

 

[liliysdad]

I just posted something similar yesterday....but I will be darned if I am not thankful for not having to deal with nonsense like this. Kudos to you guys, you are better men than me.

 

[cannuck]

The question not yet asked is if you are using an overhead door or barn door? if overhead, you will NEED a 16. ceiling to allow for door to roll overhead. If barn door you might be able to squeeze things in 14' with some clever design. Keep in mind, though: if you have or plan on having a max height RV with 5 1/2" above you will not be able to lift it much for wheel end or other service. Pretty rare to have a shop with too much ceiling height but very common to hear there is not enough. BTW: if you are allowing for a vehicle lift 14' will limit you to modestly high vehicles, but 16 buys you a lot of flexibility.
' c

 

[SmackinHondas]

I used Menards' Post Frame Design & Buy tool, put plans together, and submitted it to my city for permits. - I was denied.
The zoning states that 'galvanized steel buildings' cannot be built on lots under 5 acres (Mine is slightly under 2). I tried to resubmit to change the sizing to vinyl, but was still denied as they consider all post frame buildings to be 'galvanized steel buildings' regardless of what the exterior actually looks like

Have you inquired about the neighbors properties? Talk to your neighbors with those existing "galvanized steel buildings" and see what the deal is - maybe they were grandfathered or they are doing something different.

Are "red iron" (Mueller) type buildings out of the question as well? With non-galvanized siding (lol) of course. It is an entirely different construction, maybe worth investigating with the city.

 

[gisforgerten]

Panel frame sure doesn't look much different than post frame.

Unfortunately, the planning commission agrees. - if framing members are not space at 24" or less on center, its not allowed.

Have you inquired about the neighbors properties? Talk to your neighbors with those existing "galvanized steel buildings" and see what the deal is - maybe they were grandfathered or they are doing something different.

I did just that. all of my neighbors were grandfathered in. I even had 5 of my neighbors write the council to express support for the variance (I live at the END of a dead end street).

Don't plan to store yard **** in a shop. Get a shed for that.

The storage for trailers and equipment will only be in the winter when I'm using less of the shop space anyways (and so I can actually access it without being snowed in). In the summer that stuff will stay outside.

 

[Hawkerpilot05]

That really stinks about not building a post frame building. I am in Dakota County in IGH on a 2.7 acre lot and was able to build a post frame building up to 1000sqft with my smaller setbacks or up to 1600 soft if I used a 50' setback. I put wood in-between the poles so that I could nail lap sding on it so on the outside it looks like a stick frame building. I was unable to use steel siding but they have just changed the zoning rules so you can use it if you need a variance. One more thing, they used the inside dimensions as my measurement and went from inside of the post to post so my outside exceeded 1000 sqft but my inside was 992 sqft.