Construction type - Bang for buck

[jesus_man]

New to the forum, but seeking advice from those of you with more experience than I have.

I live in S. IL in a neighborhood where lots are roughly 2 acres. The houses are fairly large ~4000sqft. Most have a 3-car attached garages and some have additional detached garages in different configurations. I have a somewhat deep attached 3-car. But I own 4 cars and a large mower, so I need to add some storage, as well as someplace to work on my rigs.

I am considering steel and stick construction, on a concrete pad, insulated with a decent amount of power, including 220v. I am looking at 36x40 with 10ft wall, two 10x10 overhead doors, some windows, and a man door.

I have to consider resale and it has to match our existing house, which is tan vinyl siding. I think I only need to match in color, but I will dig into that.

Should I consider stick or steel? If steel, are there companies I should get a bid from? Some to avoid? I am leaning towards steel because it seems like I can get what I want cheaper. But how is wire ran? How are junction boxes installed? Insulation seems to either be sandwiched between the steel and outer sheeting, or spray in. Other options?

I can spin a wrench, so I may consider assembling myself, but I can't let it be a 6-month project. And I don't have any large equipment to hoist large beams.

What am I missing? Any advice appreciated!

 

[joe_padavano]

What am I missing? Any advice appreciated!

I've done pole, steel, and stick built outbuildings on my farm. I put them all up myself. Exterior siding choice is unrelated to framing construction - you can put any siding you want on any one of the three frames.

Pole barn is by far the least expensive. Stick and metal require concrete foundations with footers. This was a a very large expense for me. I have a tractor and auger, so drilling holes to set my own posts was free. I poured a floating slab (over well-drained crushed gravel) inside the pole garage and have had no cracking issues in well over a decade. Frost line is about 3 ft down where I live in No. VA.

Metal was by far the most expensive, and I bought a complete (but unassembled) metal building kit that had been previously purchased by another. I paid somewhere between 50% and 75% of new. That kit included everything, including metal roofing and siding, but no doors. The footings, foundation, and slab cost me more than the metal building.

Any heavy equipment you need for erecting any of these buildings can be rented. I rented a backhoe for a week to dig footings and erect the beams for the metal building. I later rented a scissor lift to install the roof panels.

In all cases, I did all the work myself (with a helper) except for the concrete work. Once the slab was done, erecting the metal building took about a week to get the frame up and a week or so for the siding.

 

[jesus_man]

Metal was by far the most expensive, and I bought a complete (but unassembled) metal building kit that had been previously purchased by another. I paid somewhere between 50% and 75% of new. That kit included everything, including metal roofing and siding, but no doors. The footings, foundation, and slab cost me more than the metal building.

Joe - thanks for your input. So, to confirm, you're saying even tho you got a great deal on a building kit, it was still more expensive than stick framed construction? But in terms of construction time, would steel be faster to erect?

 

[a52-830]

really, what is cheapest depends on what you are looking to build.

when building large barns, i built "post and beam" on twelve foot centers. then framed walls and partitions around them. there is a perimeter foundation and pads under the posts, and then poured concrete floor in some areas, like aisles and storage rooms. this was a relatively easy ting to do in a situation that lent itself easily to a grid pattern, where the posts could exist without interfering with the use, and it still provided substantial weight capacity on the second floor (tractors and hay).

the smaller barn we have was classic stick construction because it was cheapest. the building was small, a 24X24 with a wall down the middle.

the riding arena, however, required no internal supports. we went with morton buildings ( https://mortonbuildings.com ). they were amazingly inexpensive (but not cheap, a 60X160 building is not cheap), yet provided a tremendous product. that building is 18 years old, and the only work we have needed so far is to replace about 20 plastic snow stops about two years ago, which they did for about 25$ each, which included the part, and the installer coming down and climbing up there, and finding the missing ones, and replacing them. not to mention the sales guy coming down, climbing up there, and counting the missing ones so he could quote the job. no painting the exterior (unlike the barns, which have all been repainted at least once, and some need to be repainted yet again). all that, with a lifetime structural failure warranty (as long as the large sliding doors are either closed, or pinned open, when the failure occurred).

were i doing a several car detached garage, i would be looking for a clear span building. morton will give you just the shell, or do as much interior work as you want.


my only relationship with morton is as a satisfied customer.

 

[Radix2]

2 acre lots, 3car garages, 4000 sq ft houses, need to match house... are you sure that pole or metal buildings are allowed? Metal sidings and roofs?

I think it is basically true that as you move toward making a building look like a conventional stick building outside and in, the cost converges between the styles.

The other area of difference is in the foundation cost. This is a tough one, while there are examples of people with pole buildings with floating floors and wood on the ground that work well as a finished buildings, there are plenty that don't. The soil you have, site conditions, ect. will determine if you can keep the skirt boards, wall bottoms and perimeter sealed and healthy and stable or not. Building a concrete foundation is expensive, but it eliminates the variables. As you address the weak points of pole construction, again you get back to the costs of conventional foundations.

I don't know the exact cross over point, but metal buildings get cheaper as the size increases. My guess is that at your size there is not much savings if any by the time a high level of finish is required at the size you are building.

So what it comes down to IMO is you need to be very clear on what you want as a finished product before you seriously look at method. There is a reason houses are built as they are - it is the most cost effective way to make them look as they do. How much do you want or need this garage to be like that?

 

[jesus_man]

Covenants are something I have to tackle, but there are similar buildings down the street (at least the exterior is steel). I understand that there is a lack of legal backing for our Covenants for one reason or another, and once I verify that, I will simply petition the neighbors for their approval. But really I don't see that stopping me from building one. I know two of the three don't care and I don't think there's a good reason for a neighbor to stop me from building something.

Thanks for your perspective. I am glad to hear that you believe construction materials aren't going to differ much. Well, I guess I wish you would say that one is way cheaper than the other...but such is life.

As long as I have a wide open clear space free of center columns, I'm not stuck on either method of construction. I am certainly way more familiar with stick framed stuff and if I can add power and insulate that for cheaper, then I am perfectly fine with that method. As long as I can erect it all in a timely manner. Where steel may go up quicker, especially if I can find someone to help me who done it a time or two. So I believe that my goal can be achieved with either method, and then it comes down to cost and time or erect.

 

[jesus_man]

my only relationship with morton is as a satisfied customer.

Meant to thank you! I sent them an email. I'm anxious to see what they come up with.

I have spoken with General Steel and Versatube. GS seems pretty highly priced and I haven't even gotten into the customization phase. VT seems a little lower, but I have concerns about the structure being tough enough for a freak snow storm. I've seen one fella whos luck ran out and his VT collapsed and they didn't stand behind their product.

 

[readhead]

I'm a metal building seller and erector. My advice to you would be to have plans done and put it out to contractors of the various different types of construction and see where the quotes come back. By the way I am a Versatube supplier and have had no problems at all. I suspect there may be more to that story. General Steel is a broker and will be a nightmare.

I have to say that you have made the fundamental mistake of looking for the building before developing a plan. If you want compareable prices you need to develop a plan and distribute that plan to everyone.

 

[rburke65]

I have a "pole barn" foundation....post come up out of the ground by 12" or so. 2x12" fastened on inside and outside. Another 2x10" laid flat on top and then you start you studded framing on this. I used all 6x6s.....every 4' for a better built shop. I will be dust before this falls down.

 

[jesus_man]

I'm a metal building seller and erector. My advice to you would be to have plans done and put it out to contractors of the various different types of construction and see where the quotes come back. By the way I am a Versatube supplier and have had no problems at all. I suspect there may be more to that story. General Steel is a broker and will be a nightmare.

I have to say that you have made the fundamental mistake of looking for the building before developing a plan. If you want compareable prices you need to develop a plan and distribute that plan to everyone.

I know my way around CAD. What would be sufficient to bid from? A simple plan and elevation views?

 

[CNGsaves]

I'd vote for Perma-Column pole barn. Lifelong build and still affordable.

 

[a52-830]

Covenants are something I have to tackle, but there are similar buildings down the street (at least the exterior is steel). I understand that there is a lack of legal backing for our Covenants for one reason or another, and once I verify that,

i dont know what the laws are like there, but in Massachusetts, deed covenants expire 30 years after they are initiated (which is usually when the sub division was created).

MGL part 2, title 1, chapter 184, section 23, in case you were wondering:
https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartII/TitleI/Chapter184/Section23

(unless they existed before 16July1887, in which case i assume they are perpetual unless they include a term. the law is vague about that. or the restriction favors the state, of course.)

 

[readhead]

Simple plan and elevation views with dimensions both horizontal and vertical. Call out window and door types and sizes. Call out insulation values and roof and siding material. Foundation will be determined by the type of building.

 

[joe_padavano]

Joe - thanks for your input. So, to confirm, you're saying even tho you got a great deal on a building kit, it was still more expensive than stick framed construction? But in terms of construction time, would steel be faster to erect?

Yes, when the cost of the required foundation was factored in, the metal building was more expensive than pole. Again, my experience is based on doing all the work myself, so except for contracting out the concrete, there are no labor costs.

Here in NoVA, outbuildings on farms are not required to be permitted, so I didn't need engineering drawings, etc. The metal building did come with an approved set of plans, including the foundation specs, and I followed those. I'm an engineer, so I did the design work on the pole buildings myself, including sizing the structures. Once I had the dimensions, I just ordered trusses from Home Depot. Depending on the size of the truss and the height of the sides, you can sometimes put them up by hand with a couple of helpers. I did this on buildings that were 24ft wide, for example. My 36x48 storage pole building was too wide, so I rented an off-road boom-style fork lift and we used that to set the trusses.

The frame on the metal building is obviously much heavier and requires equipment to erect. Mine is 28x32 with a heavy center I-beam structure. You assemble that flat then tilt it up. We used the backhoe to do that, and it was marginal. A crane would have made that much less dramatic. Once you get that up, everything else in the frame references off of that and you can erect the rest of the frame one piece at a time. Drilling the concrete for the anchors was one of the most tedious jobs, even with a large Hilti hammer drill.

 

[jesus_man]

Perma-column. Looked that up. Very interesting. How would I figure out how many I needed? Do you then pour the slab after you get the skin and roof on?

Our neighborhood isn't that old. Less than 15yrs I would think.

I can put drawings together fairly easily. What are your recommendations for R-value of insulation?

With the extra concrete costs, perhaps a steel building isn't for me.

This is a learning experience for me, and I really appreciate all the input!!

 

[brewchief]

I am considering steel and stick construction, on a concrete pad, insulated with a decent amount of power, including 220v. I am looking at 36x40 with 10ft wall, two 10x10 overhead doors, some windows, and a man door.

I have to consider resale and it has to match our existing house, which is tan vinyl siding. I think I only need to match in color, but I will dig into that.

I would strongly recommend at least a 12' sidewall, you will need some headroom for your doors. If the location would allow you or a future owner to access it with an RV then going even taller to accommodate a 12' or 14 tall door might make sense.

Pole buildings and steel buildings can both present additional cost and complexity when finishing the inside. A stick built building on a poured footing with 2x6 walls would be very easy to match to the house. The upfront cost may be more but when you go to finish the inside it's very easy.

 

[joe_padavano]

The upfront cost may be more but when you go to finish the inside it's very easy.

There is some truth to this. Depending on the interior finish you desire, you essentially have to build stud walls inside the pole building to attach the inside sheathing. Of course, if you're building a shop and not a museum or a living room, you may not care about that.

 

[brownbagg]

CMU is the cheapest

 

[rayra]

what's your house and garage layout like, with a 2ac lot you should have decent setbacks, so there should be plenty of room for a simple expansion of your garage by one car in width and add depth beyond that for the mower / workshop.
If your garage is on the end of your house you could even have a rear door for the mower.

 

[jesus_man]

Current garage is a side-load with the peak parallel with any parked cars. Expanding that would involve raising the roof. Plus when I am grinding on metal or welding it is nice to be isolated from the house with noise and smell.

 

[Farmall450]

Meant to thank you! I sent them an email. I'm anxious to see what they come up with.

I have spoken with General Steel and Versatube. GS seems pretty highly priced and I haven't even gotten into the customization phase. VT seems a little lower, but I have concerns about the structure being tough enough for a freak snow storm. I've seen one fella whos luck ran out and his VT collapsed and they didn't stand behind their product.

+1 on Morton Buildings. Very good. 80x42

 

[Selo]

I am in the building process with Morton. So far it has been a super experience.
They can build anything you can require and when its finished it will look great. There are many Morton garages and farm buildings in my area. I looked at other buildings as well as local stick built.

I plan to post pictures when building construction begins. Recently completed the grading and cutting driveway. Build start date is 11/27/2016.

Cheers,

Selo

 

[justanengineer]

JMO but I would only recommend stick or steel. Admittedly I'm a bit biased, I often get called for pole barn repair, erecting a building is the easy part comparatively. Keep in mind two things when choosing a building 1. construction methods used in the dry south dont apply to the wet north, and 2. worst case scenario - would you rather overbuild or pay to repair or replace later?

 

[jesus_man]

I talked to a neighbor and he's thinking I might have a hard time with the neighbors with a pole or steel building. While I am still interested in a steel building, my concern is concrete design and pour offsetting any savings the building might gain, when compared to stick construction.

I have been contacted by Hansen and Morton who want to speak with me, but work has just been too crazy to allow me to do anything for myself. I was at the Lumber yard today and asked them about contractors whom might be able to get the job done. I have three guys to call.

 

[Selo]

Get specs and prices from the three guys that called and then call Morton to compare. Your neighbors will love a Morton. Do I work for Morton...NO. I have checked it out all ways; stick built, metal etc. I notice other metal building contractors often compare their buildings to a Morton. Not true that Morton is more expensive.

 

[gnpenning]

Have you looked into Insulated Concrete Forms ICF's. Built stick, steel, and ICF. My current home is ICF and my next one will be ICF. My last 2x8 staggered exterior.

Your just putting up giant Lego's. Easy to install and air infiltration is non existent except for possible your windows and doors.

 

[Dave588]

On ICF, you run furring strips over exterior and put siding on that?

 

[KDXSR5]

On ICF, you run furring strips over exterior and put siding on that?

Not necessarily. According to Nudura, an ICF manufacturer:

"The NUDURA form unit has a fastening strip located every 8” (200mm) on centre. These fastening strips are continuous up the full height of the form unit, and have a patented mechanism that interlocks one fastening strip to the one below it or above it. These fastening strips are indicated on the surface of the form by a diamond pattern. They are 1 ½” wide and have a higher pull out strength than a dimensional stud. Different types of cladding will have different installation procedures."

With Nudura, the fastening strips are sunk 1/2" below the surface. What this means for siding install is you can shave back a part of the wall if it gets bowed out for some reason, and not affect your fastening strip. This will give you a perfectly flat surface to attach your cladding to.

I have no affiliation with Nudura, but I am seriously considering their product for my future garage build. Here is a link to their builders FAQ page:

http://www.nudura.com/divisions/builder/faq---builders

Every ICF manufacturer is a little different, so the methods may be different. If the fastening strip is on the surface of a block, you would have to fur out for siding to account for any bow or wave in a wall. In my research I have found that installing siding on a wall that is not flat can be very obvious with certain types of siding such as cement board.

 

[gnpenning]

There are many different ICF manufactures. Start checking them out and comparing outside corner, web spacing, interlocking, etc, and other options. we have 2 major dealers in my area each with a different block. Both are very knowledgeable about ICF's. The Amvic dealer is super easy to deal with.

Siding, drywall, electrical all can be installed with ease. Plumping other than large vent pipes are easy as well. Just plan ahead run vents up interior walls.

After the pour your walls are insulated.

My basement and main floor are ICF.