Construction Types for new 30x40 shop - looking for advice

[Bryanbdp]

Hi. I am looking to build a 30x40 shop on my property, I'm thinking 12 foot walls. Mostly for machining and fabrication work, some automotive.
I'd really like to keep the cost down by providing most of the labor. I am a contractor, and have built ICF homes, large additions, etc. I also weld and fabricate.

I build with stick framing all the time, but I'm not familiar with pole barns, metal buildings, CBU etc.

The area I wish to build has a fair amount of drop off, will need to fill a fair amount to be level. I do intend to have a large CNC machine which weights in at over 12,000 lbs.

I'd like to select a range of techniques to help keep cost down. We're in CT with a frost depth of 42". So, a pole barn frame would probably work. Other options might be a frost protected foundation instead of a full depth one. ICFs are definitely not the cheap way to go! I do wonder if pier footings and grade beams might be worth looking at.

I have read about surface bonded concrete block in the past. I'm not sure how hard it is to lay a regular block wall, is it something an average guy can learn in a reasonable amount of time? Not sure if block can or should be used for foundation wall.

Steel buildings seem fairly cheap. I would need to allow for pretty good snow load on roof. Red iron framed buildings seem pretty safe, not as sure about the various tube framed buildings. Can't use a quonset hut in my neighborhood. Whatever I choose needs to blend in OK when finished.

For 30 foot span roof without interior posts, I believe trusses would work. I could also consider a structural ridge beam, I have used Metwood engineered beams a number of times to good effect. Much lighter than I beams, and way smaller than LVLs. Can also be pre-cambered for anticipated loading and allow for fairly large penetrations. Would be nice to have some overhead storage capability.

For slab, I am thinking 6" thick 4000 psi with remesh and radiant tubing. Additional rebar and/or thickness in machine area. I used asphalt millings for a base in my 20x20 garage, seemed to work OK. I also used takeoff roofing foam panels to insulate my detached garage. Got 46 sheets of polyiso 2" thick 4x8 for $550 last time. Did the floor, walls and ceiling of my garage. You cut them a little loose, then foam them in at the edges.

So, suggestions on way to proceed? I could definitely stick build, not sure yet how cost would compare to steel building or pole type.

I'd definitely like to hear what has worked for others...

Thank you,
Bryan
CT

 

[u2slow]

I did stick-built. It was costly, but I got what I wanted.

My building dept. threw up roadblocks when it came to prefab steel buildings. (Also, the bargains are "take what we have" sort of thing.) Pole-barn wasn't allowed because I don't qualify as a farm.

 

[Bryanbdp]

Thanks. I now know a few things to ask the building department!

 

[readhead]

First stop should be the planning and/or building department. You may know what you want to build but you need to know what you can build.

Having been in the metal building business for twenty five years I would lean toward cold formed with red iron running a close second. For your area tube steel would probably not be practical because of the number of frames. Cold formed will be less expensive for excavation and concrete and the building manufacturer will supply engineered foundation plans in the package. You won’t have to find a structural engineer to design the foundation and pay for their work.

When getting quotes make sure you ask about collateral loads in the roof. I would strongly suggest that you go with fiberglass blanket insulation. Don’t just go with eave height. Determine what interior clearances you require and work from there. All of the roof structure is below the eave. One last comment. Twelve to fifteen hundred feet is the gray area around here. Below that wood is the way to go. Above that steel. Do your homework. There are pros and cons to each.

 

[Bryanbdp]

Can you give example of cold formed, maybe a manufacturer's website?

 

[billconner]

The thing about stick frame is that it's easy to diy with prescriptive codes.. No design professionals required at 12'.

I like the shallow frost protected foundation because of minimal excavation and forming, but your site seems to have some challenges. Conventional spread footings and a block stem wall is not much harder and may be easier with sloped site. I did my 28 x 32 this way last year with surface bonded block. Again, very easy diy.

At your size, trusses make sense. 40' is too long for a practical ridge beam IMHO. Plus it makes for a simple ceiling and insulation. (I was able to live with one post dead center so stick framed roof and attic for storage.)

I saved a lot because NY permits rough sawn ungraded lumber. Lots of Amish communities near by selling rough dawn significantly below cost of lumber yards and big box stores. It's a code thing. Don't know CT.

My 32 x 28 without slab was under $20,000 started in 2022. I think slab will be $8000-10,000 when I get to it next year.

 

[Yankeefarmer]

I hear Simsbury can be a tough town in which to build. Because of that, and the fact that you’re going to want to insulate it well, I’d stick build. I’m in an almost neighboring town, and built mine (26x48x15) in 2020. PM me if you’d like to see mine and/or if you’d like a referral to my designer.

 

[jack stand]

I've found that by the time you "fill in" between the posts for a (well) insulated and closed wall for a heated building, your better off doing @billconner recommended frost protected shallow foundation and pick away at them (foundation & framing) yourself as your budget allows.
These foundations are really very simple to understand and build. That is once you understand what the basic principles are, all online.

 

[CraigStu]

Ask the permit people about floor height above the ground for that low corner of the property. I had a bay added onto an existing attached 2 car on land that sloped down to the left and rear. In that county if the finished slab floor was more than 2ft above grade, the slab would need to be supported by piers. I asked the contractor what that meant and he replied, '$ that you don't want to know about'. We ended up dropping the floor 3 steps below the existing garage to keep it just 2ft above grade.

 

[kwb]

I built my shop about 20yrs ago, buddy did his about the same time. Both are just over 1500sf. We both helped each other build.
I did stick built, he did pole building.

After all this time - I still have unfinished walls and for how I use my shop that works fine for me. He has since insulated and drywalled the whole thing. To be able to do that he had a ton of backframing to do.

In the end if you plan to finish out the interior with drywall or other sheetgoods - stick is going to be the way to go. If you just want a dry shell to work in and don't care much about wall finishes, a pole building is pretty darn efficient to build.

Red Iron is efficient but needs more equipment to erect and finishing inside will be more challenging than a wood pole building.

I don't think much of tube buildings- I wouldn't do one.

I am in the midst of adding some open covered storage right now and for it I am building it as a pole building.

 

[txvwnut]

I know you said you'd like to keep the cost down and would like to insulate and that you have built with ICF blocks. I'd go ICF and knock off two list items at once.

 

[Bryanbdp]

Thanks for all the replies so far! I didn't really see any other posts comparing all the likely choices.
Now, geodesic dome.... kidding!!

 

[PWC Repair]

Sounds like pretty much EVERYTHING you want to do is WHAT I DID!!!! I even have the unlevel property issue! Click my build thread below and check it out!

 

[cvairwerks]

Bryan: You need to back up a little bit and dig into the installation manuals for the machine you are anticipating and see what it's foundation requirements are. From there you also need to account for the initial move to get it in place. Are you going to crane it in prior to the building being roofed, move it on skates or have machinery movers do it? Each method brings it's own needs to what you end up for a foundation and shop floor. From that, then you can select the construction type and go from there. Get the foundation wrong and no matter how hard you try, you will never keep the machine within spec.

 

[readhead]

Check out Metal Sales and Quicken for cold formed buildings. Both are U.S. suppliers of ACT building systems.

 

[Natty Bumppo]

Bryan, I built a roughly 30x40 barn with 12' walls almost to your exact specs. and requirements over the past 4 or 5 years....did all the work myself save for pouring the cement pad. I was looking to get the most bang for my buck and save on labor. I am fortunate that I live in a small little hilltown of Mass. in which a building permit wasn't really required. So I didn;t have to worry about local ordinances.

I used re-used and seconds 2" polyiso sheets just like you did on your garage. I went with Perma-columns and a pole type barn. 5" pad. I found a great deal on the attic trusses....a company down your way built them for a customer who didn't pay, so they were selling them at 50% off. I have about $35K into this barn total...heat, wiring, lights, insulation, upstairs attic finished on one half, and include a used Rotary lift.

 

[racecougar]

Another method is the Panel Frame: https://bblusa.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/BBL_PanelFrame.pdf

That's the path I took, and it was incredibly efficient with regard to both lumber and insulation.

 

[ConCretin]

The area I wish to build has a fair amount of drop off, will need to fill a fair amount to be level.

Do you have enough room for a large structural fill with sloping embankments on the low sides or would you have to fill within foundation walls?

If it's the former, the least expensive foundation system (other than a pole structure) is a monolithic slab, which with the addition of insulation becomes a frost protected shallow foundation. This type of foundation can be made to work with just about any superstructure.

It it's the latter, your options are pretty limited.

 

[My Old Tools]

My 30x40x12 red iron is on a slope, but we don't have frozen ground here. I had the builder design in the clear span loft and the i-Beam hoist traveler. Hoist and traveler are rated for a 1-ton load. Very handy. I've been in it 7 years now. Hobby woodworking and metal working with a 13" lathe and a mill. I used a 6/12 pitch, lots of windows for the lake view. MrCool 3 ton for heat and air. Insulation is 4" fiberglass roll on the frame with an add 8" on the roof.

 

[WildBill]

I used a Versatube.com metal frame kit direct from them and got the sheet metal locally, built on a monolithic slab/FPSF. Was by far the cheapest solid building I could make in this area. You can play around on their site with different sizes and wind/snow load. Looks like a 30x40x12 frame only kit rated for your area is about $8k, probably another $6k for sheet metal. You can get sheet metal from them but they recommend getting it locally. They make the frames but don't make sheet metal, so its usually cheaper locally. They can email you a really nice list ahead of time to bring to local places for sheet metal quotes. The frame is really solid, heavy 2x3" pieces. And super easy to put up. I'm really happy with it. I would probably add another frame member to get the spacing to 4ft if I was to do it again, my framing is on 5ft centers which is kinda annoying for finishing walls and insulating. Its been two winters with many days of 1-3ft of snow on the roof and up to 80mph wind gusts, no issues so far.

I had about a 4ft slope under my shop, I built it up with 3" and then packed 5/8"- rock. It took a lot of rock. I did everything myself except I hired a concrete guy and his friends to help during the pour. Cost me $2k for them to help for a long day. The monolithic slab prep was pretty simple to do myself but they finished the forms to their liking and did the concrete pour/finish work. I did 6" concrete and rebar on a 16" grid for the slab.

 

[u2slow]

The thing about stick frame is that it's easy to diy with prescriptive codes.. No design professionals required at 12'.

That threshold was 16' here. I went to 19.5' AFF. $500 engineers stamp. (Fore-saw need for mezzanine due to bylaw sqft restrictions.) Site prep and concrete basically the same for a shorter building.

Too large a project for me to DIY anyway (20x37' enclosed; 40x50' overall).

 

[grr456]

I recently bought a home that the owner had just put up a 30' x 50' pole barn with 16' walls and 14' doors and then he got transferred about a month after the garage is finished.

The pole barn was totally bare, but wired with several 110v outlets and basic lighting and 100 amp service. I added high bay lighting and a second circuit to supply the lighting. It didn't really need it, but it was nearly at the limit, so it was easy to add the wiring.

I added several more outlets with 2 more 20a circuits feeding these outlets. I also added (2) 30a - 220v outlets and (1) 50a - 220v outlet.

Once I had the wiring done, I had the floor epoxied. After that was done, I had the building insulated with closed cell spray foam. Scheduling prevented me from having the insulation done before the floor was done.

After it was insulated, I installed a tube style heater, which works great.

I don't know how much the pole barn was to have it built since it came with the home. But I can tell you that to epoxy floor was $6,000, but that included doing the 3 car attached garage floor, the 3.5" spray foam insulation was $9,000, the heat was about $2,500 (I installed it and the gas line) and the wiring and lights was about $500-$600, which I also did myself.

I wish there was water in the barn, but no drain, so no water...

I live in Michigan and keep the heat at 50-55 degrees all winter and turn it up when I am working out there. It does get cold here in the winter and this barn is comfortable to work in. My most expensive natural gas heat bill last year was $175ish, but that includes my house.

The only thing I would do different is to make the height either 14' or 12'. I have absolutely no use for the walls to be 16' high. I even built a small 10' x 10' loft at 8' and there is still 8' to the rafters. I am surprised at how well this retains heat and is very nice. I would absolutely go this route over stick built again, if you are able to and don't mind the basic look of a pole barn.


Pictures are of the front, then the back, inside right after the floor was done, then after the insulation was sprayed and high bay lighting, and how it looks after I built a bunch of shelves and installed a sh*t ton of used cabinets...

 

[Bryanbdp]

There are some great looking buildings above!
I guess my very first stumbling block is zoning. I have 1.17 acres, and the building would be far enough away from the lot lines. However, there is some regulation about the size of outbuildings as a percentage of principal building. This may really screw me, and I'll have to see if it can be appealed.
Anyone know if shipping containers are exempt from zoning, might be a fallback plan!

 

[u2slow]

There are some great looking buildings above!
I guess my very first stumbling block is zoning. I have 1.17 acres, and the building would be far enough away from the lot lines. However, there is some regulation about the size of outbuildings as a percentage of principal building. This may really screw me, and I'll have to see if it can be appealed.
Anyone know if shipping containers are exempt from zoning, might be a fallback plan!

I ran into similar on my half-acre...

For the sqft restrictions, I planned the enclosed portion of the shop to be the exact maximum limit. Then flanked it with a massive car-port on each side (those sqfts didn't count); all under one common roof.

Containers were not a building so long as they remained portable. So that didn't work for me as an primary structure.

My appeal process would have been costly, and also tends to rally up opposition. I didn't even attempt.

Your bylaws and building climate could still be very different from mine.

 

[Youngandfree]

There are some great looking buildings above!
I guess my very first stumbling block is zoning. I have 1.17 acres, and the building would be far enough away from the lot lines. However, there is some regulation about the size of outbuildings as a percentage of principal building. This may really screw me, and I'll have to see if it can be appealed.
Anyone know if shipping containers are exempt from zoning, might be a fallback plan!

Can you build it close enough to the house and attach with a breezeway roof to make it attached?

 

[sjacobs7]

ISP - Insulated structural panels - built my 30x40 shop about 15 years ago-very fast very energy efficient

 

[Yankeefarmer]

…..
I guess my very first stumbling block is zoning…
Anyone know if shipping containers are exempt from zoning, might be a fallback plan!

Zoning is town-specific in Connecticut. You can probably find the Simsbury zoning regulations online.

edit: your regulations are here: https://www.simsbury-ct.gov/sites/g/files/vyhlif9751/f/uploads/zoning_regulations_0.pdf#page101

it looks like the limit is that all accessory buildings combined cannot exceed 50% of the square footage of the primary building in a residential zone. I’d recommend that you have a conversation with the zoning enforcement officer for a better understanding. Zoning officers around here sometimes seem to have understandings different than what the regulations appear to say.

 

[walrus]

I think zoning where you live is going to dictate what you can do. I had no zoning to deal with but I stick built my shop with 12 ft walls. I poured a thickened edge pad on several ft of bank run gravel that had been there for many years. so well compacted and no frost worries. Insulated under slab , radiant heat, insulated on side of slab. Put down one layer of concrete block under walls so water from vehicles doesn't get to sill plates. Worked out well for me.

 

[cannuck]

ISP - Insulated structural panels - built my 30x40 shop about 15 years ago-very fast very energy efficient

SIPs are often the name given to styrene foam glued to wood skins, but if you mean MIP (metal insulated panels = sheet metal skins both side with poured polyurethane foam core) that is by far the best way to go - for envelope of red iron structure (that can be designed from day 1 to be able to install overhead crane runways). I can't understand people building for current needs and thermal efficiencies when they should be building for the future. When I built my little backyard shop 40 years ago I had idea I would be in it still and the price of heating (had to remove the 6" rolls of glass fiber in the roof and do closed cell foam to make it at least up to date). If I had to build now, I would use 6" MIP walls and 8" MIP roof, but you can't get the latter yet, so 6" roof panels with 2" supplemental foam board below. Beauty of MIP walls is inside and outside finish is already in place an makes things move along very quickly.

 

[Bryanbdp]

Yah, talked to zoning today. House is currently 1423 sf, existing garage is 400 sf, so that would only leave me 350 sf. But, if I used a roofed walkway to the garage, and to the shop, all good! Basically no limit as long as I stay out of offset areas. Glad I got an answer, moving was starting to look attractive.