Contractor Hack

[central1ny]

Starting on my garage build and had my footings poured by a contractor. He has turned out so far to be the biggest hack ever. I have the following issues with my footings:

1. Look like ****. Concrete is not flush to the top of the form boards in multiple locations. I guess he has never heard of screeding.

2. The quote called for 10"x18" footings. The installed footings are 8" thick and vary between 17" - 19" wide.

3. The footings are positioned incorrectly. My original plan called for a 8'x18' breezeway between the house and the garage. The placement of the footings will require me to make the breezeway 8' 4" x 18' 8"

4. The plan called for a finished wall height that matches the existing house foundation level. This requires 8 courses of block, which means the top of the footing should be 64" below the house foundation. The installed footings are 67" below. The mason tells me he will make up the difference using mortar.

Anyone experience such lousy pathetic work? What can I do? I argued with the guy about it and got in a cursing match but he doesnt think it is a real big deal. He seems unwilling to fix it. He already has the down payment, which is 1/2 of the total price of the job. Seems like I am basically screwed.

Help!

 

[NJHandyGuy]

if you paid by check put a stop payment on it until your made whole

 

[central1ny]

if you paid by check put a stop payment on it until your made whole

Too late for that, check was cashed yesterday.

 

[michael Mccoy]

Tell him you do not want him to finish the job, hire another contractor to do it the right way, take pictures of his work and take him to court. I hope you had it all written out and show the sloppy work to the judge.
I had the same issue with a new roof, first part on pitch was sloppy
and I didn't want to see what they would do on the 2 flats. Had them sign on a paper I drew up on an attorneys advice to cancel the contract. I refuse to put up with ****** work.

 

[Steves32]

Permit?
Licensed contractor?
Are there plans?
You wrote him a check knowing all this was wrong?

 

[central1ny]

Had them sign on a paper I drew up on an attorneys advice to cancel the contract. I refuse to put up with ****** work.

Maybe I am an idiot for this, but we did not sign a contract. He provided a proposal and that is what the work is based from. I signed nothing and he signed nothing. Would I still be able to pursue court action?

 

[central1ny]

Permit?
Licensed contractor?
Are there plans?
You wrote him a check knowing all this was wrong?

Permit yes
He is a licensed contractor
I provided him with plans
Check was provided as down payment, which is required by all contractors in this area. 1/2 is provided before the job starts and 1/2 on completion. Standard practice.

 

[NJHandyGuy]

iif you can PROVE he did the work

 

[central1ny]

iif you can PROVE he did the work

I have pictures of him working on the footing. That should be proof enough.

 

[Frank The Plumber]

This BS of giving these guys half the money up front is wrong.
This BS of guys advising that if you work for someone that you should get half the money up front is wrong.
If you are legitimate and a contractor of good record and do business with respectable people you should not be requesting nor receiving any earnest money up front.
The contractor has the responsibility to provide a document that explains to you that you have rights and that he has rights.
If you do not pay him he will lien your home and take you to court, if he is within his rights he will be paid and you will incur all costs. If he is wrong you may win something, but if he finishes the job you will get much less.
The payment schedule should revolve around accomplishment of work in the field at the site. Inspection qualified work. Not supposed cost nor non related physical costs.
He is now ahead of you and his attitude reflects such, he is difficult to harm and easily unruly, why not, you are screwed if you dump his ***.

If a contractor is requesting money up front you should always question his basis for this request.

Suppose Joe Bloe is doing a siding job for you. He says he needs half the money to buy the material. Is Joe Bloe so short of cash reserves that he can not fund this? Is this a healthy business operation, is this good business, no it is not.
The proper way to structure this situation would be, Joe is delivering to the site X amount of materials, upon delivery this X amount of materials upon viewing, is now your property, and at that point you pay for it, it is now non lienable, it is now your property, if Joe puts it on his truck and scraps it, Joe stole it. Lock it in your garage.
When Joe gets to the 1/2 way point of his project, structure a payout for him, this should have been done originally in the contract. Upon significant completion pay Joe all but 10%. If you are happy with the project and Joe reward him and pay out his 10% final when he is done, if he has been wanking you a bit, hold his 10% and tell him you will final when he finishes the detail work.

I have done hundreds of jobs this way, 99% happy people, considering 10 % of the world is crazy I think I do fair to middlin with this.

When a guy comes out and wants money afront he is telling you straight away that he has had troubles, why else would he request this? If you can not find a contractor who will work with you on the basis that I have out layed, keep searching, trust runs both ways, why should you trust a project to a guy who does not trust you, especially when he will have all of the legal mechanisms in his favor in the event that you are not noble in the end, if he has properly served you?

I see this a lot here. And I see a lot of guys who want front money. Take my advice on the procedure and you will be recieved and thought of better. Give them some value as well, don't just ask for money based upon their trust because you do not wish to get burned, that is an odd foot to set out upon in your relationship with the customer.

I feel that you have made several key mistakes in your choosing of a contractor, if he can not follow plan and spec he will not build a proper structure.
If he can not be spoken to and or explain or show an example of how he is going to accomodate your discrepancies, it may be necessary to dismiss him and try to recover any lost funds.
A proper amicable dialogue is key to a business relationship, once that is lost, the project is **** and should be halted. It is his responsibility to keep that relationship in a proper state. If he can not be spoken to or reasoned with....it is time for war. At that point you should consult an attorney without informing said contractor of your intentions and have a legal document sent to him by an attorney halting the project for all reasons stated within its content, he would usually be given a respond or forfeit opportunity. In many cases at this point he flees the site which is why we use an attorney to inform him of he decision, in this way the dialogue is correct and his decision to flee with all funds becomes criminal as he was given an opportunity to respond. If he has bonding on the project within the permit process it may be exercised in the event the work is subpar and he refuses correction.

It gets complex after that.
Sorry.

 

[Frank The Plumber]

The check and the act of him cashing it in some cases may be perceived as the act of acceptance of terms of a proposal. A lot of guys think that if they don't sign they are fine.
Not true in all cases. In some cases a mans word still has significant weight especially if the other man has a negative history in business dealings and can be proven a liar or dishonest. If he pulled a permit on this project he almost fully has accepted any details of the plans as part of any contract, verbal or not, in many cases.

 

[brownbagg]

building code say on first course of block the bed joint cant be no thicker than 3/4 of a inch

you need to call the county inspector for it not being built to code or prints, they will eat his lunch

 

[central1ny]

building code say on first course of block the bed joint cant be no thicker than 3/4 of a inch

you need to call the county inspector for it not being built to code or prints, they will eat his lunch

What about the remaininig courses? Already called the codes inspector. He doesn't really care that we are not going to meet the plan. Very easy code guy.

 

[bczygan]

Starting on my garage build and had my footings poured by a contractor. He has turned out so far to be the biggest hack ever. I have the following issues with my footings:

1. Look like ****. Concrete is not flush to the top of the form boards in multiple locations. I guess he has never heard of screeding.

2. The quote called for 10"x18" footings. The installed footings are 8" thick and vary between 17" - 19" wide.

3. The footings are positioned incorrectly. My original plan called for a 8'x18' breezeway between the house and the garage. The placement of the footings will require me to make the breezeway 8' 4" x 18' 8"

4. The plan called for a finished wall height that matches the existing house foundation level. This requires 8 courses of block, which means the top of the footing should be 64" below the house foundation. The installed footings are 67" below. The mason tells me he will make up the difference using mortar.

Anyone experience such lousy pathetic work? What can I do? I argued with the guy about it and got in a cursing match but he doesnt think it is a real big deal. He seems unwilling to fix it. He already has the down payment, which is 1/2 of the total price of the job. Seems like I am basically screwed.

Help!

First,
Are you an expert on poured concrete footings? Footings are NOT screeded. They are not placed with the exactness of finish carpentry. An inch of variation is not too much to be worried about. And yes,the mason will eat up the extra dimension. Your expectations are out of whack with reality.

 

[central1ny]

First,
Are you an expert on poured concrete footings? Footings are NOT screeded. They are not placed with the exactness of finish carpentry. An inch of variation is not too much to be worried about. And yes,the mason will eat up the extra dimension. Your expectations are out of whack with reality.

I am not a concrete expert but an engineer. Doesnt seem like it would be hard to get a consistent footing that is flat. I also don't see how expecting that the mason would pour the footings to the plan are out of whack with reality. If I pay you for something specific and you agree to it, then give me what we agreed to. simple

 

[W_KY]

First,
Are you an expert on poured concrete footings? Footings are NOT screeded. They are not placed with the exactness of finish carpentry. An inch of variation is not too much to be worried about. And yes,the mason will eat up the extra dimension. Your expectations are out of whack with reality.

I am not an expert but my brother-in-law and nephew are. They have a concrete wall business that employs roughly 30 people. (it was up to about 80 during the boom. Pouring multiple basements per day. I think they said they have like 25+ sets of forms.) My brother in law has been doing it for roughly the last 30 years and my nephew for the last 5 or so. They have a crew entirely devoted to pouring footers. I've helped them on a few personal concrete pours for the farm and buildings. So I guess its about like staying at a Holiday Inn Express

Anyway, when my nephew poured his footers for his garage they were screeded (or at least sure looked like they were). But I will say they were putting aluminum concrete forms on top of them for walls later on so that may make a difference.

On the measuring, they weren't exact but seemed to be within an inch. It also wasn't going up against a building or anything that required exact precision. It did require the footers to at least allow the walls to sit on them and be square.

 

[Steves32]

Permit yes
He is a licensed contractor
I provided him with plans
Check was provided as down payment, which is required by all contractors in this area. 1/2 is provided before the job starts and 1/2 on completion. Standard practice.

Ahhhh, check again. May differ state to state but here, it's 10% down or $1000.00, whichever is less at down payment.

 

[back2class]

I would have held the second payment. But look, the job is done and not worth tearing apart. Sounds like poor work, but from what you describe it amounts to a few minor adjustments for the next crew who work on it, not a nightmare. Just relax and keep it perspective. Sounds like at the end of the day it creates a few hours of extra work and a few $ in extra materials and is far from uncommon in the building trades.. I spent 10 years as a licensed contractor and seldom is anything perfect, sounds like you are looking too hard for a problem. I sometimes had customers who were research experts...they would hire me, then study books on what was going on and start nitpicking. Problem was they had no real world experience or understood why some things were being done outside what the textbook said. Mostly they just had no clue and found problems with each step because they did not know what the next steps were. I am not saying this is the case with you. However, sometimes you just have the understand you are most often times hiring someone who knows better than you about their trade. He understands the next crew will adjust for any "offs" as part of their work.
The depth is the only issue I see here more then just very minor. If it still falls into code then let it be. If not you have to decide if it is worth the hassle.

In closing, I think you got a lousy job. But I also think if the footing is code, then you are too involved and need to let the tradesmen do what they do and that often involves some "mistakes" the next crew will just take care of. As for someone giving you a hard time about paying 1/2 up front, don't let it get to you. For any job that was more than a days work or over $1,000 I always required at least the meterials cost up front and this was less than most contractors wanted. My typical larger jobs were; 1/3 at start, 1/3 at midpoint and last 1/3 was due when I walked out the door.

 

[paullie]

First,
Are you an expert on poured concrete footings? Footings are NOT screeded. They are not placed with the exactness of finish carpentry. An inch of variation is not too much to be worried about. And yes,the mason will eat up the extra dimension. Your expectations are out of whack with reality.

^^^^^^^^^^^
have ever heard of "talking out of your ***" or "you don't know your *** from a hole in the ground" you have no clue what you are talking about dude

 

[nehog]

Maybe I am an idiot for this, but we did not sign a contract. He provided a proposal and that is what the work is based from. I signed nothing and he signed nothing. Would I still be able to pursue court action?

OK, so you have an oral contract. He might agree with all your specifications to the contract. You did give him plans. Court action for what is my question? You want the job redone? Will 'fixing' the problem cost you more (or anything?) or are you looking for a payment for the "I'm pissed off" factor?

Permit yes
He is a licensed contractor
I provided him with plans
Check was provided as down payment, which is required by all contractors in this area. 1/2 is provided before the job starts and 1/2 on completion. Standard practice.

Uh, you paid the second half when it wasn't completed to your satisfaction? Humm... That may work against you in the long run.

It appears to me that you were working as the GC, and as such it would be your responsibility to keep track of how your subs are doing, making sure that at each stage (such as locating forms) that things are being done right.

 

[stafford]

Pictures?

 

[ConCretin]

If I read the thread correctly, you've made a 50% down payment but still owe the guy some money. I'd certainly withhold whatever you have to pay your other contractors to make it right.

If there is not enough money, I'd chalk it up to experience. Legal action would cost much more than it's worth especially if the guy can't pay.

Your complaints about the dimensional errors are legit but variations in ftg width and surface finish are probably a bit picky.

 

[rockchucker]

Everybody is going off of what an Engineer "Thinks" Concrete should look like. LOL

Funny how all of these experts are saying it was a **** job without even having seen a picture. How is anyone basing their opinions on what has not been seen?

Post up some pictures of the work so you can have more than guesses or interpretations of what you are describing.


As far as the 50% down thing goes. If you can find a single Contractor anywhere that will even step foot on a site without 50% down you are delusional. Contractors must protect themselves just as much as the Homeowner. A Contractor is not going to go out and spend 20k on accounts of his own without being paid part of that money up front. It just doesn't happen. So Frank you are saying that a 50k job in total should be 100% completed before the Contractor even gets cut a single check? Sorry but that is just not the way it works anymore. Back in the day when there weren't as many Lawsuits and shady lawyers and shady Contractors and everything was agreed to on a handshake MAYBE...Not today. I would like to see the reaction of most Contractors when you have them come submit a Bid only to tell them your terms of not paying anything until the Job is complete...

 

[VWandDodge]

This BS of giving these guys half the money up front is wrong.
This BS of guys advising that if you work for someone that you should get half the money up front is wrong.
If you are legitimate and a contractor of good record and do business with respectable people you should not be requesting nor receiving any earnest money up front.
The contractor has the responsibility to provide a document that explains to you that you have rights and that he has rights.
If you do not pay him he will lien your home and take you to court, if he is within his rights he will be paid and you will incur all costs. If he is wrong you may win something, but if he finishes the job you will get much less.
The payment schedule should revolve around accomplishment of work in the field at the site. Inspection qualified work. Not supposed cost nor non related physical costs.
He is now ahead of you and his attitude reflects such, he is difficult to harm and easily unruly, why not, you are screwed if you dump his ***.

If a contractor is requesting money up front you should always question his basis for this request.

I disagree with your statement about a contractor not taking money up front. I had my house re-roofed five years ago and paid the contractor up front for the materials because prices fluctuate and he needed to lock in with his supplier as the price of oil was bouncing almost every 4 hours.

The balance was due upon satisfactory completion of the job.

 

[cdseven95]

This BS of giving these guys half the money up front is wrong.
This BS of guys advising that if you work for someone that you should get half the money up front is wrong.
If you are legitimate and a contractor of good record and do business with respectable people you should not be requesting nor receiving any earnest money up front.

Its not a contractors job to fund the project it is the homeowners... You expect a contractor to buy materials for a job that the homeowner may back out on or cant pay for? It may make sense for a plumber or electrician doing a small job since there is little material costs typically.... Even the most "honest" homeowners can run into money trouble.

 

[back2class]

I disagree with your statement about a contractor not taking money up front. I had my house re-roofed five years ago and paid the contractor up front for the materials because prices fluctuate and he needed to lock in with his supplier as the price of oil was bouncing almost every 4 hours.

The balance was due upon satisfactory completion of the job.

I think that was the contractors way of getting you to ink the deal. Shingles don't fluctuate enough over days to make any real matter. But I agree most any contractor will need something upfront. I think since he is a plumber, he my be doing smaller one and 2 day jobs were it is still sometimes the case when payment is done at the end.

 

[VWandDodge]

I think that was the contractors way of getting you to ink the deal. Shingles don't fluctuate enough over days to make any real matter. But I agree most any contractor will need something upfront. I think since he is a plumber, he my be doing smaller one and 2 day jobs were it is still sometimes the case when payment is done at the end.

I see your point, but when oil prices are jumping you'd be surprised at how much the price of shingles and tarp paper will jump in conjunction, and for a roof my size (42 squares), a small increase can affect the overall cost.

Also, as cdseven95 points out, a (legitimate) contractor is going to require the homeowner (at least) pay up front for materials as he could potentially get stiffed for that.

 

[rockchucker]

100% agreed on both accounts. ^

 

[central1ny]

Uh, you paid the second half when it wasn't completed to your satisfaction? Humm... That may work against you in the long run.

It appears to me that you were working as the GC, and as such it would be your responsibility to keep track of how your subs are doing, making sure that at each stage (such as locating forms) that things are being done right.

I have not made the second payment yet. This is due on completion of the project. I have conceded that his mistakes will not cost me much time or money and he is continuing on the project. I am acting as the GC so I will accept some blame.

 

[central1ny]

Everybody is going off of what an Engineer "Thinks" Concrete should look like. LOL

Funny how all of these experts are saying it was a **** job without even having seen a picture. How is anyone basing their opinions on what has not been seen?

Post up some pictures of the work so you can have more than guesses or interpretations of what you are describing.

Ok, so the look like **** factor may just be me in a pissy mood. The fact that we agreed to 10" thick footers when he poured 8" does not require a picture. I measured it. I can concede on the width. The contractor agreed with me that the footings were placed wrong, again no picture needed.

 

[Frank The Plumber]

First of all gentlemen.
A 50% cash deposit on a job is not ethical.
Here is why for all of you home owners out there.

No contractor worth a grain of salt pays cash out as cash upon purchasing his supplies.
The contractor either uses an account from a supplier or a credit card, not actual at the moment cash.
Any contractor who does not have what is called operating capital to finance and conduct fair and honest business operations should be avoided.
If he absolutely can not do the job because he does not have the material money for a period of time in which to purchase the products deliver them to the site and then be paid for the products...**** him. What's to say this guy is ever coming back with your materials or do the job, he may be lying on a beach in Baja within hours.
If he wanted up front money the only money he should get upfront prior to actual delivery of the materials would be a minor fee the equivalent of a restocking fee.

Why should the homeowner basically pull his drawers down in the middle of the street and leave him self fully prone when the contractor, the person operating the business is not even willing to leave himself out for returnable materials and or products.

It's called operating capital, if you are a professional operation you have some, if you are not a good businessman or operator you don't.
If you ever did a public works project, large bid commercial work or bank funded homeowner projects you fully understand the concept, you will never get a 50% deposit on a multi million dollar public works project, nor a bank funded private job, you'll be sent down the road.
Why should the private individual be forced to pay 50% up front?

Anyone who is planning or contemplating a project and may have any questions regarding this simply contact your local states attorneys office or better business office of your local government, they will almost certainly advise you as I have.

Contractors have a plethora of forms and documents we are required to provide to you and you have many rights as consumers. Don't let anyone ******** you.

Hire licensed bonded and insured, only.

 

[Graymills - Craig]

No contractor worth a grain of salt pays cash out as cash upon purchasing his supplies.
The contractor either uses an account from a supplier or a credit card, not actual at the moment cash.
Any contractor who does not have what is called operating capital to finance and conduct fair and honest business operations should be avoided.
If he absolutely can not do the job because he does not have the material money for a period of time in which to purchase the products deliver them to the site and then be paid for the products...**** him. What's to say this guy is ever coming back with your materials or do the job, he may be lying on a beach in Baja within hours.

Frank;

Working capital is irrelevant, though I agree that real businesses should be able to fund operations.

The point is that making the homeowner shell out for materials is a way to ensure they don't **** you. If you're worried about the contractor running off with it, escrow is fine.

We do this all the time in our business (manufacturing). Custom equipment requires an upfront payment - not because we can't afford the materials but because we don't want them changing their minds after we've invested in their order.

Cheers;
Craig

 

[csp]

First,
Are you an expert on poured concrete footings? Footings are NOT screeded. They are not placed with the exactness of finish carpentry. An inch of variation is not too much to be worried about. And yes,the mason will eat up the extra dimension. Your expectations are out of whack with reality.

I'm guessing that footings in your area are just poured into an excavated ditch.

In many places a footing is formed with dimensional lumber and those are indeed screeded. They aren't finished by any means, but they are screeded to be level with the tops of the forms.

 

[Frank The Plumber]

Frank;

Working capital is irrelevant, though I agree that real businesses should be able to fund operations.

The point is that making the homeowner shell out for materials is a way to ensure they don't **** you. If you're worried about the contractor running off with it, escrow is fine.

We do this all the time in our business (manufacturing). Custom equipment requires an upfront payment - not because we can't afford the materials but because we don't want them changing their minds after we've invested in their order.

Cheers;
Craig

You have a different scenario there, you have a well established base operation. Different.
Also.
Many guys are not getting past this concept of 50% down, they are stuck on it.

Example of how a fair deal should work:

You call Frank the Plumber out to your home.
You request a quotation for work to be done.
We agree on a fee.
I design a contract to our liking, in the terms we agree that upon delivery of the materials meaning that morning that I start and unload from my truck x amount of materials from my truck you pay me X that morning. If you do not pay me X material amount upon delivery, I pick up my marbles and go home, return my material and get a refund. I have a good enough relationship with my supplier that he will not charge me a restock fee.
On special order items that can go back into stock, the customer pays the restock fee as a deposit on the item. On non returnables they go to my supplier and pay for it themselves, he makes them pay in full.

Upon significant completion you request more money.

The whole issue is paying a guy in a van 50% for nothing, there is no harm on the contractors part to operate the way I do. I'm not a perfect person, yet rarely ever get doinked by operating this way.

I am basically getting my 50%, just in a way with less risk exposure to the client, this eases their nerves and gives them a comfortable feeling.
It does not leave them sitting by the window wondering if you are ever coming back.

And just to make it even more interesting, anyone who ever called in someone else, where I arrived to find a different guy there doing the job, was a terrible customer and hosed the be jezuz out of the other guy, so sometimes giving them that space to be weird is favorable.

 

[Frank The Plumber]

The guy will have to set a cut block row to get the block to proper elevation, he made himself a lot of work. You can't start the house 3" deeper into the ground or below the specified grade. The only thing to do is cut blocks.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

A good many years ago (fall of '99) I erected a 60x60 steel building. I spec'ed and purchased the building and shipping directly from the manufacturer. My contractor dug and formed up the monolith slab, and ordered in the concrete and hired in a finishing crew he used frequently. When the slab was totally finished he gave me a bill, and I paid him, the entire cost of his work and materials. After the building arrived, he came and unloaded it, and a couple of weeks later brought his crew in and spent a week erecting it. I paid him in full after the job was finished. It was an opened ended building, as I had a set of doors for a 14h x 56w opening on order. While waiting on the doors to arrive, he fabricated the header and drops and got prepared for installing the doors and finishing the end of the building. He came and installed the drops, wind braces and header, and when the doors arrived, he came and unloaded them. Later he came back and installed them and finished all the remaining sheet metal and trim. After this I paid him for this work. I had a local guy and his stepson who did garage doors order and install two doors for me, a 12w x 14h glass sectional garage door and opener, and a 10x10 roll up sheet door. When he finished that work, I paid him in full.

I never put out any money up front.

Charles

 

[Graymills - Craig]

You call Frank the Plumber out to your home.
You request a quotation for work to be done.
We agree on a fee.
I design a contract to our liking, in the terms we agree that upon delivery of the materials meaning that morning that I start and unload from my truck x amount of materials from my truck you pay me X that morning. If you do not pay me X material amount upon delivery, I pick up my marbles and go home, return my material and get a refund.

I think we're viciously agreeing.

You're still getting paid for the materials prior to completion, so I consider that upfront money. Yeah, you bought it with your free cash, but you're covered in case of problems before you start work.

Too bad you're not in Chicago!

 

[central1ny]

Well the contractor came back today and spent 6 1/2 hours putting 4 chalk lines down to square the foundation in preparation for blocks and then called it quits for the day. I sure as hell hope it is really square, almost afraid to go out and check it. Question for any concrete experts out there, how long should it take to square up lines so you can start laying blocks? Seems to me that if your footing was square, it shouldn't take a whole lot of time to drop some chalk lines.

 

[chickenhauler]

I'm by no means a "concrete expert", but when I was done with my footer, and getting ready to start setting my wall forms, measured length, width, and corner to corner (x cross) I grabbed my wife for 5 minutes to help snap the chalk line. Maybe 15 minutes total? Or course it poured that night and I had to do it again the next day lol.

 

[Strouty]

I am not a concrete expert but an engineer.

I hate to sound like a jerk, but here is your problem. Just because you can design it perfectly, doesn't mean he can't finish it very nicely. Every time we had the engineer out to sites, all hell would break loose. I appreciate what you do, but be careful how you approach the contractor. Your tolerance and specifications may vary due to a lot of circumstances.