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Contractor Hack

bczygan

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Nov 4, 2009
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DETROIT! Arsenal of Scrappers
Some things about construction:

There's a big difference between design and construction. In design, everything is perfect. In construction everything has degrees of fit and finish.

Owners should never be allowed to see the process of construction. It's like watching sausage being made. You don't want to know how. Just enjoy the finished product.
If the owner is a professional of any kind, this goes triple.

Rough carpentry is rough. In fact, as a project progresses, each layer tends to cover and minimize the roughness of the prior work. That's what much of the trim and finish carpentry does. A modern design is much more difficult to build as the tolerances are much closer because there is no trim to hide variations.

Our best jobs were where the owners went to Florida for the duration.
 
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Steves32

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Feb 12, 2011
Messages
845
Some of you need to read the law as it pertains to contracts.
A deposit is different than a payment or matrerial draw.
A deposit is just that- a fee charged at the signing of the contract before any work has started or any materials are ordered.
The law clearly states when customer signs a contract in their home (different rules for their office), they have a 72 hour right to cancel without penalty. By law, the only fee you can collect is 10% of contract or $1000.00, whichever is the lesser amount (which is refunded without penalty if they back out in writing during those 3 days). After the 3 day right to cancel has passed- you can set up payments however you want but at no time can you collect more money than you are into the job for.
So, lets say joe homeowner signs a contract for 30k in his home. I collect a $1000.00 deposit at contract signing (less than the 10% of contract price that would be 3k)
HO gets a 72 hour cool off period. After the 72 hours, materials are ordered. Contractors do it several ways. Some do a 10% or $1000 deposit at contract sign, 20% when materials delivered & different percentage draws during the course of construction.
Many times, we get the deposit & nothing else until the end. Depends on the customer. On real big jobs, we may ask for progress payments.
Many contractors seem to be re-inventing the rules as they go along. Just because everyonbe's doing it doesn't make it right.

I just finished building my garage using many different subs. If one of them asked for 50% down, I would have shown him the door.

BTW, before you guys **** all over my take on the rules- I'm a former industry advisor for the Contractor's State License Board.
 
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ConCretin

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Joined
Jan 20, 2011
Messages
3,378
Location
Central Maine
Steves32. My only comment would be that rules vary from state to state. In Maine, if a contractor fails to use an approved contract form for a job over $10k, he may waive his ability to get paid.
 

Frank The Plumber

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Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Messages
2,644
Location
Chicago.
Some of you need to read the law as it pertains to contracts.
A deposit is different than a payment or matrerial draw.
A deposit is just that- a fee charged at the signing of the contract before any work has started or any materials are ordered.
The law clearly states when customer signs a contract in their home (different rules for their office), they have a 72 hour right to cancel without penalty. By law, the only fee you can collect is 10% of contract or $1000.00, whichever is the lesser amount (which is refunded without penalty if they back out in writing during those 3 days). After the 3 day right to cancel has passed- you can set up payments however you want but at no time can you collect more money than you are into the job for.
So, lets say joe homeowner signs a contract for 30k in his home. I collect a $1000.00 deposit at contract signing (less than the 10% of contract price that would be 3k)
HO gets a 72 hour cool off period. After the 72 hours, materials are ordered. Contractors do it several ways. Some do a 10% or $1000 deposit at contract sign, 20% when materials delivered & different percentage draws during the course of construction.
Many times, we get the deposit & nothing else until the end. Depends on the customer. On real big jobs, we may ask for progress payments.
Many contractors seem to be re-inventing the rules as they go along. Just because everyonbe's doing it doesn't make it right.

I just finished building my garage using many different subs. If one of them asked for 50% down, I would have shown him the door.

BTW, before you guys **** all over my take on the rules- I'm a former industry advisor for the Contractor's State License Board.

Thank you voice of knowledge and reason. And though it may vary per state, no state would support a 50% down clause without some major contractual concensus.
 

Frank The Plumber

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Feb 19, 2011
Messages
2,644
Location
Chicago.
I think we're viciously agreeing.

You're still getting paid for the materials prior to completion, so I consider that upfront money. Yeah, you bought it with your free cash, but you're covered in case of problems before you start work.

Too bad you're not in Chicago!

I am located on the Northwest side of Chicago. Yes we do agree, both parties always need to feel comfortable. In your case you are a manufacturer, the item you produce may be trademarked etc, so you need the deposit due to lack of ability to return it or resell it.
In my case it's easy, just return the product. Why harm a guy over that. It is poor ethics.
In my business a guy may cancel and 2 weeks later have an even bigger job, better to keep the customer than wage war.
 
Last edited:

jhelrey

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Joined
Sep 15, 2010
Messages
7,238
Location
MN
I've never seen super straight footings. It's put it this way, it is a footing, it is thick, it will do it's job. 1 inch wider isn't going to prevent the footing from failing.
 

brewchief

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Joined
Sep 20, 2008
Messages
2,370
Location
Michigan
I'm an HVAC guy and the company I work for normally gets a $500 deposit on most jobs, pretty common to do a $8000-$10000 job with nothing more than a signed contract and $500 deposit.

Concrete guys seem to be a little different around here, an estimate may consist of a number scratched on the back of a business card. The guys doing large projects are often much better but the average guy doing footings for a garage isn't likely to draw up a detailed proposal.

As long as the masonry contractor is OK with the footing I wouldn't sweat it.
 

blue dog

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Joined
Jul 4, 2010
Messages
4,051
Location
Culver City Ca.
Some of you need to read the law as it pertains to contracts.
A deposit is different than a payment or matrerial draw.
A deposit is just that- a fee charged at the signing of the contract before any work has started or any materials are ordered.
The law clearly states when customer signs a contract in their home (different rules for their office), they have a 72 hour right to cancel without penalty. By law, the only fee you can collect is 10% of contract or $1000.00, whichever is the lesser amount (which is refunded without penalty if they back out in writing during those 3 days). After the 3 day right to cancel has passed- you can set up payments however you want but at no time can you collect more money than you are into the job for.
So, lets say joe homeowner signs a contract for 30k in his home. I collect a $1000.00 deposit at contract signing (less than the 10% of contract price that would be 3k)
HO gets a 72 hour cool off period. After the 72 hours, materials are ordered. Contractors do it several ways. Some do a 10% or $1000 deposit at contract sign, 20% when materials delivered & different percentage draws during the course of construction.
Many times, we get the deposit & nothing else until the end. Depends on the customer. On real big jobs, we may ask for progress payments.
Many contractors seem to be re-inventing the rules as they go along. Just because everyonbe's doing it doesn't make it right.

I just finished building my garage using many different subs. If one of them asked for 50% down, I would have shown him the door.

BTW, before you guys **** all over my take on the rules- I'm a former industry advisor for the Contractor's State License Board.

Spot on, southern California GC/ developer of 22 years here.
 

Mike in Ohio

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Joined
Sep 27, 2008
Messages
2,404
Location
Canton,Ohio
Some of this may depend on how much you researched your contractor. The guy who did my shop floor did a wonderful job almost 4 years and not a crack anywhere. The saw cuts probably have cracks but that is what they are there for. When he poured it I gave him a check that day for the full amount.

Now 3 years later the economy is much worse, very little work around here in construction. This spring my dad calls him to pour a pad to store his camper on. This time he wants some money up front, I can't remember how much, but Dad gave it to him. He did a really nice job for Dad also.

I think with the economy the way it is some of these small outfits need to cover thier butts a little more and also some of the suppliers are not extending credit like they used too. My building is 30 x48 he did all the prep work, setting the wire mesh, leveling the gravel, and laying down the vapor barrier, and forming by himself then had help just for the pour itself.

I think the key is to know who you are hiring, get references, look at some of their previous jobs and ask thier previous customers if they are happy.
 

chadwimc

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Joined
Feb 9, 2011
Messages
11
Maybe I am an idiot for this, but we did not sign a contract. He provided a proposal and that is what the work is based from. I signed nothing and he signed nothing. Would I still be able to pursue court action?

Do you work as an Engineer without signed contracts?
 

ConCretin

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Joined
Jan 20, 2011
Messages
3,378
Location
Central Maine
It seems to me that we often are our own worst enemy. The hacks of the world exist because most home(garage)owners are looking for the cheapest price and are willing to roll the dice for a good deal.

How many of us are willing to pay a premium for a properly capitalized firm, with adequate insurance, properly classified employees, etc.

Not saying that a more established firm is a guarantee or that every little guy is a hack but at the end of the day, all the laws and lawyers in the world can't replace an educated consumer. If you want to save a buck and go with the guy working out of a pick up asking for 50% up front, you need to understand the risks.

Hopefully discussions like this on GJ will get people thinking even if it does kind of highjack the thread and doesn't really help the OP much.
 
OP
C

central1ny

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Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Messages
134
It seems to me that we often are our own worst enemy. The hacks of the world exist because most home(garage)owners are looking for the cheapest price and are willing to roll the dice for a good deal.

How many of us are willing to pay a premium for a properly capitalized firm, with adequate insurance, properly classified employees, etc.

Not saying that a more established firm is a guarantee or that every little guy is a hack but at the end of the day, all the laws and lawyers in the world can't replace an educated consumer. If you want to save a buck and go with the guy working out of a pick up asking for 50% up front, you need to understand the risks.

Hopefully discussions like this on GJ will get people thinking even if it does kind of highjack the thread and doesn't really help the OP much.


This contractor is licensed and insured and has been in business for > 20 years. He was not the cheapest mason that I could find.
 
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ConCretin

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Jan 20, 2011
Messages
3,378
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Central Maine
Central1NY,
Sorry if I gave the impression I was commenting on your situation - I obviously have no idea what your circumstances are. I was responding to the conversation that your thread inspired about contracting in general.
 

Kevin54

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Joined
Jan 12, 2005
Messages
29,341
Location
Urbana, Ohio
This contractor is licensed and insured and has been in business for > 20 years. He was not the cheapest mason that I could find.

Is the GC also the one hiring the guy to lay the blocks? If so, they have more than likely worked together in the past, so they are familiar with each others work. I really wouldn't sweat the wider footer or the fact that the footer is out of square to your specs. What matters is the top couple of courses that are out of the ground and that you can see. These will have to be square and dead on. A blocklayer can cheat and shift to achieve that on the way up. Once it's buried in the ground, you will never know. Even if the footer height is out a couple of inches, they can mortar in a cap block below to make up for that.

One of the worst things to do though is get on the wrong side of the GC before the job is really underway. Give it a chance, give the blocklayer a chance, and if it isn't right at the top, then you have a legitimate reason to *****.
 

danski0224

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 29, 2005
Messages
13,329
Location
Near Naperville, IL
It seems to me that we often are our own worst enemy. The hacks of the world exist because most home(garage)owners are looking for the cheapest price and are willing to roll the dice for a good deal.

How many of us are willing to pay a premium for a properly capitalized firm, with adequate insurance, properly classified employees, etc.

Not saying that a more established firm is a guarantee or that every little guy is a hack but at the end of the day, all the laws and lawyers in the world can't replace an educated consumer. If you want to save a buck and go with the guy working out of a pick up asking for 50% up front, you need to understand the risks.

Hopefully discussions like this on GJ will get people thinking even if it does kind of highjack the thread and doesn't really help the OP much.

The part in bold is key.

However, just because a company appears to have all of the other items, doesn't mean that the customer will get a "good job".

Some companies are looking for first time customers, and don't give a damn about the second time... or even fixing what they messed up the first time.

Some of these flaws can take years to find or make themselves apparent- when equipment fails prematurely, or the building starts to fall apart because shortcuts were taken either on purpose or because the wrong methods were used.

These hacks provide me with work fixing their chit. The homeowners usually think they got a good deal. They think the company did a good job- until things fall apart, or wonder why it isn't working like it should.

Homeowners, generally speaking, do not want to pay for quality upfront.

If it is a construction project or mechanical system, the homeowners are looking at prices and ignoring specifications.

The homeowners are not looking at a system. Not the home as a system.

There are a number of big companies providing chitty workmanship... and not all of it is because the people in the home doing the work don't know what they are doing, but rather the superintendant, foreman, boss or owner is pushing for the next job (and their bonus) before the first one is done. And yes, performance based pay (piecework) contributes to corner cutting.

Many of these outfits pay rather poorly but charge the homeowner an arm and a leg.

As far as deposits go, I always ask for one. The amount depends on the scope of work.

If all/most of the stuff is special order, and I can't return it or don't think it could be used elsewhere, then it is paid for 100% (plus markup and my time)before anything happens. That philosophy will never change for me.

The laws favor the client, not the contractor. Once material is delivered to the site, the homeowner "owns" it and I can't forcibly take it back... so yes, they are paying for it before it arrives at the door if I have to order it and can't take it back.

If it is stock stuff, and the cost of the job is heavy on materials, I'll ask for 30%.

More labor or thinking than materials, I'll ask for 10%.

The client can say no, and then I can also then have my calendar suddenly fill up.

I never force anyone or use pressure tactics.

Deposits also show intent vs shopping, and solidify scheduling.

Short lead time and time sensitive projects make it difficult to get a deposit, so those just go as is, unless there is a lot of money involved. Of course, my definition of "a lot" may be different from yours.

A business depends on cash flow. If the jobs stack up and the contractor is out materials and payroll for a series of jobs without deposits... now what? I certainly don't want to use credit to pay for materials, unless it is paid in full before the interest starts.

I think a lot of it boils down to the relationship between the client and the person(s) doing the work. If both parties trust each other, there is nothing wrong with obtaining a deposit appropriate for the scope of work. If there is no trust, then I don't do the work. Pretty simple, and it works.
 

back2class

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Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
2,723
It seems to me that we often are our own worst enemy. The hacks of the world exist because most home(garage)owners are looking for the cheapest price and are willing to roll the dice for a good deal.

How many of us are willing to pay a premium for a properly capitalized firm, with adequate insurance, properly classified employees, etc.
QUOTE]

Very few real skilled craftsman work for such a firm mentioned above. What you get with a big outfit most of the time is one spoiled brat son of the old guy who built the biz and a bunch of illegals without a clue, or some subcrontract deal with a hack you would never hire to begin with. Basicaly look for a articulate guy who has been in the area for a decade or so with a small crew of two or three. For residential that is where you will find the best quality work and fair prices. Worst is a huge operation that will have so much overhead that the job will be four times the proper cost...and still be done by illegals.

I think a small percent of homeowners go with the chepest person, but most can see the red flags. If a guy shows up in an old grand am that is used as a work truck, that a huge one...lol.
 

Frank The Plumber

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Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Messages
2,644
Location
Chicago.
A sure sign is that when you drive by the donut shop you see your contractor filling his truck with day laborers......and it's ten o'clock so any good ones are already gone none the less.

When you ask the guy doing your electric how it's going he just smiles at you and nods.

When you ask the guy dry walling your upstairs how it's going he runs out of the house dropping half of your wife's jewelry as he leaps your fence.

You notice the guys cooking in your yard and your kid can't find her Guinea Pig.
 

darkk

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Joined
Dec 24, 2009
Messages
3,361
Location
Willimantic, Ct.
In my state, oral contracts are considered legal. If there are plans and he has deviated from them, stop and make him do it right. Here the building inspector would stop work if the footings are not to code/plans. I definately would not continue until the footing issue is resolved.
 

blkhonda1991

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Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
608
Location
Connecticut
Some things about construction:

There's a big difference between design and construction. In design, everything is perfect. In construction everything has degrees of fit and finish.

Owners should never be allowed to see the process of construction. It's like watching sausage being made. You don't want to know how. Just enjoy the finished product.
If the owner is a professional of any kind, this goes triple.

Rough carpentry is rough. In fact, as a project progresses, each layer tends to cover and minimize the roughness of the prior work. That's what much of the trim and finish carpentry does. A modern design is much more difficult to build as the tolerances are much closer because there is no trim to hide variations.

Our best jobs were where the owners went to Florida for the duration.

Of course its not perfect but it isnt that rough that anything should be 4 inches off from what the plans show unless its an existing condition buried in a wall.
 

rockchucker

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Joined
Mar 27, 2010
Messages
1,764
Location
Seattle WA
This BS of giving these guys half the money up front is wrong.
This BS of guys advising that if you work for someone that you should get half the money up front is wrong.
If you are legitimate and a contractor of good record and do business with respectable people you should not be requesting nor receiving any earnest money up front.

Regardless of whether or not it is 50%, which from what I have experienced over my years it usually is about that, there is an exchange of money from the Customer to the Contractor BEFORE the job begins. This is usually right after the Contracts are signed. Maybe it is agreed upon 25%, maybe 35%. The point is, unless you are very small and just doing a few thousand dollars worth of work total I can see it not having to be paid out until the job is finished. I have plenty of capital to invest in other peoples projects but you bet your *** I am asking for 50% or less depending on the job before getting started. Especially if it is over 20-25k worth of work. If the Homeowner decides to **** me then all of my capital is gone and I have to go through the proper channels to get my money back which could take YEARS! These are the times where my Capital is gone and I can't start other projects because I trusted someone and pissed away all of my money into his project. Happens all of the time where Homeowners skip the bill and Contractor skips town. It goes both ways.

I was merely commenting on how Frank was saying that ANY type of payout before work starts is wrong...That is just not what I have experienced in my 15 years and my Father's 30 years of Contracting.

Different strokes for different folks. I still ask for some part of payment before I start working.
 

amuffly

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Jan 25, 2010
Messages
61
Location
Wichita, KS
We hardly get paid up front unless we are worried about the customers credit. We have jobs from $100-$1,000,000 + and we get paid when the work is done. Sorry but I would never pay a contractor up front! All they have to do is pack up and leave and it is your word against his if you can even find him again.
 

Old Moparz

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Joined
Jan 21, 2005
Messages
1,171
Location
Newburgh, NY 12550
Some things about construction:

There's a big difference between design and construction. In design, everything is perfect. In construction everything has degrees of fit and finish.

Owners should never be allowed to see the process of construction. It's like watching sausage being made. You don't want to know how. Just enjoy the finished product.
If the owner is a professional of any kind, this goes triple.

Rough carpentry is rough. In fact, as a project progresses, each layer tends to cover and minimize the roughness of the prior work. That's what much of the trim and finish carpentry does. A modern design is much more difficult to build as the tolerances are much closer because there is no trim to hide variations.

Our best jobs were where the owners went to Florida for the duration.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but when you post something like "Our best jobs were where the owners went to Florida for the duration" it gives me the impression that corners were cut. It's been my experience that when contractors are left to supervise themselves, they don't. This doesn't mean that all contractors can't be trusted, only that the ones who need to be kept in check shouldn't be given free reigns to run the entire project without the one paying the bills there to see & check on the progress.
 

ConCretin

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Joined
Jan 20, 2011
Messages
3,378
Location
Central Maine
Very few real skilled craftsman work for such a firm mentioned above. What you get with a big outfit most of the time is one spoiled brat son of the old guy who built the biz and a bunch of illegals without a clue, or some subcrontract deal with a hack you would never hire to begin with. Basicaly look for a articulate guy who has been in the area for a decade or so with a small crew of two or three. For residential that is where you will find the best quality work and fair prices. Worst is a huge operation that will have so much overhead that the job will be four times the proper cost...and still be done by illegals.

I think a small percent of homeowners go with the chepest person, but most can see the red flags. If a guy shows up in an old grand am that is used as a work truck, that a huge one...lol.

You'll note I didn't say big firm, I said well capitalized, insured and with properly classified employees.

Though I think your characterization of larger firms is a bit harsh, I don't disagree with you that the best quality and value often results when the owner is on the job every day.

If homeowners are so savvy when it comes to seeing red flags, I wonder who is keeping all the hacks in business.
 

Steves32

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Joined
Feb 12, 2011
Messages
845
Sorry but I would never pay a contractor up front! All they have to do is pack up and leave and it is your word against his if you can even find him again.

And this is EXACTLY why there are laws pertaining to deposits & payments.
 

Zeke

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Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
17,176
Location
Long Beach CA, the sewer by the sea.
Sorry if this sounds harsh, but when you post something like "Our best jobs were where the owners went to Florida for the duration" it gives me the impression that corners were cut. It's been my experience that when contractors are left to supervise themselves, they don't. This doesn't mean that all contractors can't be trusted, only that the ones who need to be kept in check shouldn't be given free reigns to run the entire project without the one paying the bills there to see & check on the progress.

Not necessarily. So many homeowners innocently interfere with the work and workers that top performance is not a matter of professional pride. I'll tell you this: if I'm working in a remodel inside and the kids come home, fire up the TV and start watching MTV **** at full volume, I'm gonna cut some corners just to get the fck outta there.

More than once I have walked across the street and sat down on someone's lawn just to clear my head. If they come out to ask, I tell them straight out.

A contractor is a guest in the home. He should treat the situation that way and be treated as such. Not always the case either or both ways.

I don't know what this has to do with the hack job posted.
 

chickenhauler

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Joined
May 31, 2011
Messages
473
Location
Pennsylvania
I just looked at the pics, and if it was me, I'd have him set new forms to the correct dimensions, and pour them over the existing footer. That way you don't have to mess around trying to joggle the 4" or so that your breezeway is off, and it'll bring it up to the correct height.
 
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