Contractor suggests mini splits, now I'm unsure

[davejo]

We bought a place last Fall with an unfinished garage and apartment structure. Framing and rough electrical and plumbing is as far as the previous owner got. We have blueprints that show a ducted a/c heat pump system to be installed.

We hired a contractor to help us turn the building into an in-law suite and he suggested minisplits over the traditional hvac system. Cost, efficiency, ease of installation benefits.

Lowes quoted us $9850 for a Lennox 30K outdoor unit with two 9K and one 18K indoor units. Regional independent hvac company quoted $9771 For Mitsubishi hyper heat 30K outdoor with one 18K and one 9K indoor.

These are about $5K over our budget so I started reading this forum to get some DIY ideas. Now i'm second guessing the idea that minisplits are the best solution. We are waiting for two more minisplit quotes so in the mean time I'm thinking maybe I should learn how to do ductwork.....

Any advice towards addressing my budget problem via DIY will be appreciated while I continue my research.

 

[turbowoodworker]

I am not an HVAC Guy so take my recommendations with a grain of salt. The following answers that you're going to get here are going to suggest that you do this yourself.They will talk about how easy the DIY is and in fact there are lots of threads about DIY Mini splits.

Not being an HVAC guy and not wanting to mess with warranty, sizing, etc. etc. I chose to have a professional supply and install two Mitsubishi units. I'm very happy with those units. My quotes were very similar to your's and I obtained 3 quotes and found that all 3 were within about 5% of each other.

I'm very happy with the results and have no regrets on the ability of my units to provide both heating and cooling, and humidity control.

 

[Jinks]

At the price you're quoting you could buy 16 of some of the DIY mini splits quoted in other threads on this forum. Three years ago I debated a DIY install with a licensed installer doing the start up. Couldn't find an installer willing to do it, so I paid for a complete professional install for a Mitsubishi Mr. Slim. The three clowns that showed up let slip that it was their first mini split install. So much for "professional". I had to loan them some tools, & would have done a neater line run on my own. The unit works & I'm happy with Mitsubishi, but if I ever have a problem I'll use one of the DIY units at a cost that would allow me to replace them whenever needed.

 

[shillamus]

I have DIY'd ductless split systems... there is significant tooling needed to do it yourself properly.

Blueridge's are by far the most competitive ductless splits on the market. You can purchase the material and then get quotes to install it.... you might save on a markup

Here is a link to a Blueridge system that might meet your needs.. it is about $1800.. You should not pay more than 2000$ to install it.

http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduct.cfm?productID=453073671

 

[mpire]

Keep in mind that the hardest part of the Mini-split install is running the proper electrical wire. Once you have the 220v breaker and the power wire run, the rest is pretty simple.

Drill a 3" hole in the wall, hang indoor bracket and then unit, run tubing, setup condenser unit, then connect everything and pull a vacuum. Then open the valve and let the refrigerant out. That's pretty much the whole thing.

You can buy or make a slab to set the outside unit on. I have done several units now and its all pretty straight forward with basic hand tools.

What I don't get is that its pretty much the same price to buy a multi-evaporator unit or to buy multiple small units with separate compressors. That doesn't add up in my head.

Here are two 9+9+18 LG Units for $3800

https://www.acwholesalers.com/Ductless-Mini-Split-Air-Conditioner-Tri-Zone-Heat-Pump/cat1035.ac?mainCat=cat22185&subCat=cat1037&trail=1004%3ALG%3A5210%3A9+%2B+9+%2B+18

 

[mpire]

LG compressors:

36000 BTU compressor is $2200
18000 BTU compressor is $950
9000 BTU Compressor is $688

So its cheaper to get multiple smaller compressors for the same capacity vs one large compressor.

(Indoor units are the same.)

Anyone know why? Wouldn't you want multiples?

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Run like hell from box door hvac install deals,all they're doing is subbing it out to the cheapest guy they can get to do it and jacking up the price from him.
If you go with a regular forced air system remember the garage and apt will need separate systems to operate safely .

 

[theoldwizard1]

Mitsubishi Hyper Heat is definitely the "Cadillac" of the mini-split systems !

Many mini-split systems loose efficiency below about 30F and will not provide heat at all below 20F. You have to learn to understand the specs in order to become an "informed consumer" !

 

[KenC]

I installed an LG 12000btu heat pump about a year ago. Delivered to my door with everything (other that mounting pad) to install. $990 bucks. I installed the wiiring, line set etc. Called a local heat and air company to pull a vacuum, charge the lines/indoor unit with N2, leak check, then revac and open the service valves. $135 service call.

I would have started it up myself, but a micron gauge costs more than the service call.

It works great! If I were doing a bigger area, I think 2 smaller units are both cheaper and provides some insurance against a total heat/air outage at an inopportune time.

 

[dsimatt]

Friday I stopped in and got a ball park quote on a Mitsubishi unit, one 18k btu head with hyper heat and one 12k head with normal heat with the 30k btu outside unit and the guy said it would be around 6 grand installed which I didn't think was the worst.

I've got a 1300sgft ranch with hot water heat so basically if I want good ac in my place then its mini splits or get ready to really spend the money to at ducting which would be a cluster in my basement.

After thinking about what others posted its tempting to just go big like a single 30k unit in my main area and see how that works and add in 2 smaller ones to the bedrooms later if needed.

 

[justinjoyal]

OP:

If the installation is what can be considered "usual" as per piping lenght, units location, etc, those quotes you got are absolutely ridiculous IMO.

 

[tab2]

OP:

If the installation is what can be considered "usual" as per piping lenght, units location, etc, those quotes you got are absolutely ridiculous IMO.

https://www.acwholesalers.com/Mitsubishi-Air-Conditioners/MXZ-3C30NAHZ-MSZFH09NA-MSZFH18NA-27000-BTU-18-SEER-h2i-Ductless-Heat-Pump/53861.ac?catId=cat1034&mainCat=cat22185&subCat=cat1037&trail=1004:Mitsubishi:5206:9%20+%2018


I don't agree with this, the material "cost" is easily $5,000 after you add in the units plus everything else you need: compressor mounting, line sets, line set covers, disconnect, 14/3 t-stat wire, 12/2 for line voltage, and a breaker if you need it.

60% material "cost" labor, overhead, profit from a legitimate business, I don't think that's too crazy to get to $10k. Would I pay that, no, but I can see how the pricing gets there.

 

[nh_yota]

If you go with a regular forced air system remember the garage and apt will need separate systems to operate safely .

This is key. Garages by code can't share common ductwork with the living spaces.

 

[justinjoyal]

https://www.acwholesalers.com/Mitsu...Cat=cat1037&trail=1004:Mitsubishi:5206:9 + 18





I don't agree with this, the material "cost" is easily $5,000 after you add in the units plus everything else you need: compressor mounting, line sets, line set covers, disconnect, 14/3 t-stat wire, 12/2 for line voltage, and a breaker if you need it.



60% material "cost" labor, overhead, profit from a legitimate business, I don't think that's too crazy to get to $10k. Would I pay that, no, but I can see how the pricing gets there.

I sell and install 'em... But i guess I wouldn't know, right?

 

[tab2]

I sell and install 'em... But i guess I wouldn't know, right?

I'm in the commercial world, we always get an extra 0 on every number.

 

[bzinsky]

I don't agree with this, the material "cost" is easily $5,000 after you add in the units plus everything else you need: compressor mounting, line sets, line set covers, disconnect, 14/3 t-stat wire, 12/2 for line voltage, and a breaker if you need it.

60% material "cost" labor, overhead, profit from a legitimate business, I don't think that's too crazy to get to $10k. Would I pay that, no, but I can see how the pricing gets there.

I've installed 23 units now, purchased the materials all on my own, all done by code, and while there is a significant list of materials you need to buy, I can confirm $9xxx is a ridiculous price.

 

[davejo]

Great helpful input so far, thanks to all. Here is the structure in question:

36 by 26 footprint. 2 car bays on ground floor and middle floor, 23w x 26d. 13w x 26 deep "galley" area next to the garages on ground floor and middle floor (340 sf each).

14w x 26 bedroom space on top floor with another 5w x 26 closet space in the kneewall area.

The quotes were for addressing the top floor space and the middle floor "galley" space which will be kitchenette, half bath and a shower stall. Nothing yet for the ground floor "galley" or garage spaces. Staircases live in the galley spaces.

Questions to follow as I work through this.

 

[Hornman]

You have a 3" downspout on all four corners of the building, but they are plumbed into the soffits. Even with my fertile imagination I cannot come up with a guess about what is happening there. Explain please.

 

[shillamus]

Is there existing ductwork?

Looks like you can run through the garage if not.. ducting to the second floor would require a chase

Is the space open inside? Ductless splits do keep separate bedrooms cool but we blow them into a large central area...

If upstairs is a smaller footprint a 9K upstairs and an 18K downstairs would work. I would envision them mounted on that exterior wall to keep the linesets shorter and the lifts lower.. which would add installation cost

Tough call... I have never done the wall mounting of exterior units... does look like you can do downstairs on grade out front.

can you take a picture of the floor plan and post it?

 

[theoldwizard1]

If you do NOT have ductwork installed, you will save a lot using a mini-split system.

I don't know how cold it gets there, but my biggest concern would be heat on anything other than a Mitsubishi Hyper Heat.

 

[justinjoyal]

Fujitsu make multizone units rated for -15F.

 

[dsimatt]

I've installed 23 units now, purchased the materials all on my own, all done by code, and while there is a significant list of materials you need to buy, I can confirm $9xxx is a ridiculous price.

I've seriously thought about buying a big single unit online and DIYing it myself but honestly I don't really have the slightest clue on whats needed and how to set it up, also I don't have a lot of the needed tools and it wouldn't pay for just installing one. The other thing is sure if it was a $500 system then i'd give it a go and see what happens but if I'm paying $3k+ then I want it installed properly, operating at peak efficiency and also a warranty to protect my investment.

Another thing is service down the line if there is issues because how do you deal with something that there's no dealer support in your area so around here there's only a couple brands that actually have dealer support.

 

[davejo]

Areas to be hvac'ed are the spaces to the right and up above the two garage doors

Kitchenette, bathroom, stairway up to bedroom above garage

bedroom upstairs

The gutters are built into the soffits

 

[pharper]

I installed my own Mitsubishi Mr. Slim system and had a profession do the turn up for $200. It saved me about 40% over all of quotes I had for a pro to do the entire job. It's fairly simple if you feel comfortable with a little electrical. The only special tool I had to buy was a 3" hole saw.

I even wrote a blog post about the process. Pretty straight forward: mini-split install.

 

[Radix2]

Yes, please explain the soffit/gutter system you have built - with some pictures. Looks interesting !

 

[bzinsky]

I've seriously thought about buying a big single unit online and DIYing it myself but honestly I don't really have the slightest clue on whats needed and how to set it up, also I don't have a lot of the needed tools and it wouldn't pay for just installing one. The other thing is sure if it was a $500 system then i'd give it a go and see what happens but if I'm paying $3k+ then I want it installed properly, operating at peak efficiency and also a warranty to protect my investment.

Another thing is service down the line if there is issues because how do you deal with something that there's no dealer support in your area so around here there's only a couple brands that actually have dealer support.

I would not recommend DIY unless you are one of those people that needs to DIY everything. I'd just get several estimates. I know they are painful, but it's time well spent.

 

[dsimatt]

I would not recommend DIY unless you are one of those people that needs to DIY everything. I'd just get several estimates. I know they are painful, but it's time well spent.

Nope there are a lot of things that I want to try myself or I have people that can help me save money on the job but in this case I don't know anyone and i'm not going to risk screwing up a pretty expensive item trying to save a few bucks.

 

[davejo]

Decision finally made, DIY.

How important would "hyper heat" capability be? I'm in the Shenandoah Valley, VA

In the mitsubishi 36K range, hyper heat adds about $1500 partly because the need for a "branch box"

 

[dsimatt]

How cold does it get down there by you, if you only see lows of 40s then I would think the regular ones would work and you could buy a couple space heaters for the freak cold snaps.

 

[davejo]

we are climate zone 4 here. It might get into the single digits F a couple of days per winter. I don't remember any sub zero days in the last 15 years.

I had a calculation done by ecomfort and they call for two 9K indoor units

in comparison the hvac guys suggested 18k plus 9k, not sure which one for which zone, though...

 

[toyotadriver]

You could also wire in a couple wall electric heaters as supplemental heat. If you have gas or can install propane you could install a vented propane or gas stove for both looks as well as supplemental heat.

 

[justinjoyal]

If you don't get temps below 0 F, you will be perfectly fine with a regular, non-hyperheat system.

 

[truckman5000]

look for energy co. or state rebate offers when buying. Here you can get 1125$ rebate per system. As im a mechanical co. oi have a bunch of ductless in my home as they were "free" after rebate. Good luck and feel free to pm me any ?s

 

[davejo]

No turning back now. I sprang for the hyper heat to cover my bases. Time will tell if its worth it to save about $4000 as a do it yourselfer.

To reset the comparison. Lowes contractor quoted $9771 for a Mitsubishi 30K hyper heat with a 9k and a 18K indoor units installed.

I just paid $5340 for the 30k hyper heat with two 15K inside units with all the linesets, cables. I still have to run power from the breaker box to the outside unit and build a mounting pad. I have about 10 hours of internet research plus the valuable advice you all have given so far. I'm feeling very confident in getting this thing up and running and have learned a lot, in theory.

I'll keep a tally going if anyone is interested

 

[justinjoyal]

Edited.

 

[fastjohnny]

No turning back now. I sprang for the hyper heat to cover my bases. Time will tell if its worth it to save about $4000 as a do it yourselfer.

To reset the comparison. Lowes contractor quoted $9771 for a Mitsubishi 30K hyper heat with a 9k and a 18K indoor units installed.

I just paid $5340 for the 30k hyper heat with two 15K inside units with all the linesets, cables. I still have to run power from the breaker box to the outside unit and build a mounting pad. I have about 10 hours of internet research plus the valuable advice you all have given so far. I'm feeling very confident in getting this thing up and running and have learned a lot, in theory.

I'll keep a tally going if anyone is interested

What is the SEER on the 30k hyper heat? I went with separate units as the individual SEER was much higher than on the multi units. IIRC SEER of 30 on the 9k units

 

[hermannea]

I did the same thing as KenC about 3-4 months ago. Mine are Mitsubishi slim 9000btu units, put in two by myself and had zero issues. Sold my gauges and vacuum so i paid $99 to have it pressurized with nitrogen for 30 min, evacuated a little due to me cutting my line set shorter. They are great and efficient, no complaints. Don't remember what i paid but it was less than $2500

 

[BearsFan315]

Blueridge are Gree rebranded

talked with alpine today, Gree makes both the PTAC and mini Split systems, Gree manuals are available and such.

 

[davejo]

Inside units are pretty much done. Still need to install outside unit. Pretty steep learning curve but learning, I am.

I think the seer is 17

 

[tab2]

I DIY'ed my Mitsubishi dual zone with a pro to test with nitrogen, pull a vacuum and then release the refrigerant. He offered me a job when he saw my work up to that point!

You'll be fine, just take your time and be diligent. Definitely use the flare nuts from the unit and not ones from the line set. They are much better quality, I could really feel the difference in my hands. What flaring tool are you using and how Re they coming out?