Conversion from standing pilot to electronic

[oldcpecdr]

Hey all

I have a 35,000 btu LP Empire Direct Vent wall furnace in the shop that has been working well for ten years. Last two years I have had more and more trouble with the standing pilot light going out.

I changed the thermocouple several times, installed a new pilot light assy, have changed the gas valve, and tried various shrouds around the direct vent exit at the exterior wall. I dissasembled the heater completely to check for a rusty heat exchanger or any other sheet metal part that might be leaking air, it is in brand new condition with NO rust anywhere. If I light up the pilot light it works perfectly, I have both increased and decreased the pilot flame and it goes out at either end of the flame setting after working perfectly for 24- 48 hours. I borrowed a manometer to check pressures and it seems fine. Checked with a full propane tank. (100 gallons)

SO.... since it works perfectly when it actually lights I thought it might work to change the standing pilot light to an electronic one. Honeywell markets a kit that includes everything for what I thought was fairly priced at about 240.00 and I am sure I could install it safely in an hour or two.


https://www.supplyhouse.com/Honeywell-Y8610U4001-Intermittent-Pilot-Control-Conversion-Kit


BUT , there is always a but, the description on the Honeywell unit says do NOT use on a direct vent system, anyone know why ? I keep looking at the kit and my heater and don't see any reason it wont work. Any ideas ?

Money well spent if I don't have to light the pilot manually every other day.

On the other hand I would rather not KAPOW my shop !!!!

Mike B

 

[Jackfre]

I have competed against Empire for years on their DV's with the Rinnai's I sold. Your call with model and serial number in hand should only be made to Empire tech. I understand your desire to keep this unit going, but trying to adapt a pilot system where they tell you specifically to not do so is not a good idea at all. Talk to Empire. They have seen it all!

 

[LS6 Tommy]

My guess is the kit can't be used on direct vented systems because they do not use a pilot. They use a hot surface ignitor because a pilot will never light with a draft inducer blower.

Tommy

 

[oldcpecdr]

Jackfre-I’ll call Empire and Honeywell

Tommy- direct vent out the side of the garage...no power vent
And it has standing pilot light now that is supposed to be on
24-7 the only fan is to distribute heat

 

[arrowhead]

I converted a furnace a long time ago and almost blew up the place. I believe the problem was a constant pilot light provides a heat source so you always have a draft up the flue. If you go with an electronic, there is no heat when it's off. So when the pilot and main burner try to start, there's not enough draft and the gas just kind of floats around until boom it lights up. This may or may not be useful for your situation, but it's something to think about.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

I'd be in the "call the heater manufacturer and explain your problem" camp.

I bet they get this complaint a lot and should know how to run it down.

Phil

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Jackfre-I’ll call Empire and Honeywell

Tommy- direct vent out the side of the garage...no power vent
And it has standing pilot light now that is supposed to be on
24-7 the only fan is to distribute heat

OK, that's where my confusion was. What you have is not a direct vent unit. It's a direct exhaust unit. Direct vent and power vent both have combustion blowers. Direct vent units use a blower to draw in outside air for combustion. Power vent units use space air for combustion and use a blower to force the exhaust out. Direct exhaust units use outside or space air for combustion and the exhaust gases exit through the wall or roof without the aid of a blower.

Tommy

 

[ljhhontx]

My thought is if it worked at one time and now doesn't what is the real cause? You changed almost all components. Does it have a fan or is it radiant only? If it is radiant only it has a thermopile not thermocouple and the tstat or wiring could be bad causing loss of voltage that holds valve open to pilot. Seems easier to diagnose and repair original program than to spend the money and retrofit.

 

[66cj225]

If you have a problem with the standing pilot, why would a different ignition system help? Fix the gas/air problem. First thing that doesn't add up is something made of steel on Cape Cod that hasn't rusted?? Compressed air out the exhaust, blow out the air intake, blow out the gas line, replace the regulator. The like new unit at 10 years old is half way through its life.

 

[fitter30]

Since we don't have the model# heres a link for manuals. Hows the vent cap look? If you blow out the pilot burner off the thermocouple should be able to hear the gas valve clik off at 30 seconds or more.
http://empirezoneheat.com/support/manuals/

 

[oldcpecdr]

Thank you for the ideas !!!

1. I have the manual

2. I have done all the mechanical things suggested

3. There really is no rust or corrosion inside, I have taken this apart right down to the chassis on the wall including removing the heat exchanger and physically examining it. A very good friend passed from CO poisoning because of a bad heat exchanger in his vacation cabin .. I have no desire to go that way.

But a couple of posters got me thinking.... what has changed to make the pilot not stay lit... It occurred to me driving along today that the one change I hadn't thought about was my new trailer parked alongside the wall where the Exhaust vent is. I had an extra tall enclosed trailer built for some tall equipment that I demo to customers.... I am thinking now that the new parking spot that I had paved and the tall trailer might be creating a wind tunnel effect..the trailer is higher than the vent .. this weekend I will move the trailer and relight the pilot and see what happens... sure am going to feel like a dumb *** if that works and it took a year and a half to figure it out... I'll report after the weekend,

Mike B

 

[Jackfre]

�� Sometimes it is hard to “get out of the box”. I bet you are right.

 

[Bretny]

I have an old standing pilot unit heater in my garage. Some times I would come into the heater out and the fan blowing like mad. Turns out the ribbon burner that connects all the main burners to each other was pretty clogged. Gas would build up then catch and blow everything out. Cleaned the ribbon burners and it's been good all last year. Just something to think about.

 

[oldcpecdr]

I wish it was just a clog or some dirt... When I tried to fix this last year i had it down to sheet metal parts and a bracket hanging on the wall... no rust no dirt, everything cleaned and mostly replaced.

Moving the trailer tomorrow to the other side of the building, I am hoping that is the problem...

Mike B

 

[oldcpecdr]

Took me a week later to move the trailer than i thought, but lit her up Friday night and heat has been fine all weekend.... I am submitting my request for dumbazz of the year....at least I have lots of new parts now !!!!!

Sure was cozy out there today....who would have thought a new trailer parking spot would put the heat out.


Thanks to all for making me think this problem through,

Mike B

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=958982&stc=1&d=1577079862

 

[LS6 Tommy]

I'm glad you got it sorted.

Tommy

 

[oldcpecdr]

Of course now I have lost my trailer parking spot..... think I can elbow the vent and exit out a little higher than the trailer ?

Mike B