Converting from oil to propane

[MUD DAWG]

Seems like the timeline to get rid of my oil furnace is almost here. My system is working very well still, cleaned and maintained professionally by the oil supplier every year. However, the tank is 14 years old, and insurance companies are really working hard on ridding everyone from oil. Natural gas would be first and best choice, but I'm 3 miles away from the gas line, and it's not gonna happen. So that leaves me with propane.

I'd really appreciate on some advice on how to go about this, to ensure a long lasting system, with minimum headaches, and be as cost efficient in the long run as possible.

1) Biggest question by far. Is what furnace to get? I've already gotten a quote from my current heating company, and they only sell and recommend York. Apparently they're still made in the US, and their heat exchangers are blown tubes vs welded ones from other makers. I'm getting a high efficiency furnace, and overly complicated computers and sensors worry me, but I'm not sure how much choice I have. I'd very much rather pay an extra $1,000 or so for a better quality unit that'll last longer.

2) I can get 1 big torpedo tank away from the house, or have 3 smaller vertical tanks against the house. My wife prefers the tanks against the house as they'll be out of sight. Is any tank setup better than the other? Costs are exactly the same.

3) Any point in buying the tanks? I know I can choose my supplier then, but I'm not sure how much of a difference in pricing I'll get.

4) Oil furnaces need yearly maintenance, what does propane require since it's cleaner burning?


Please let me know anything else I need to consider. Thanks very much.

 

[Firebrick43]

Buy one big tank, as big as possible. You save 10-15 cent a gallon in tank rent but biggest savings is you can will call fillings instead of having them maintain levels. They invariably fill the tank late winter/ early spring at high rates even if you can make it to summer. Just put money monthly into the savings account so you can pay the big bill when they do fill it.

I save thousands over a neighbor that rents. Crazy thing was when they moved from Chicago they gave away the owned tank that came with the house because they wanted buget billing.

As far as furnaces I have noticed the later 96-98 percent furnaces require more maintenance and have more issues than a 92-95 percent furnace. I person don't think they are worth it.

I have a 95% and have done nothing except blow out dust in the combustion chamber and wipe off a flame sensor a time or two(and air filters). Furnace is a 2001. Remember most brands actually sell the same equipment under two brand names with sometime wildly different pricing. Example Trane and American standard or York/ Coleman. Get several different quotes and references. I have seen some real hucksters in the hvac business upselling unneeded or undelivered equipment. Reminds me sometimes of use car or replacement window salemAn at times. Not that the majority are good decent people.

 

[Randy in Maine]

I could save 10 cents per gallon if I owned the tank.

If you are going to buy a tank, buy a 500 or 1000 gallon tank and bury it in the yard someplace with a riser that the truck can get to. Then just run the LP gas line to the house.

Not much maintenance to a propane unit. I assume that you are forced hot air so it is mostly keeping the air filters and ductwork clean. Mine is a condensing boiler so they come about every 3 years to clean the circuit board.

 

[tyme2par4]

You might want to look into the cost of propane. In my area, it will easily cost you twice as much, if not more than oil does to heat your house.

 

[Jackfre]

If the system is running well, I would make this season with the oil and plan for for Spring early summer change-over. Yes, buy the 1000 gal tank, underground preferably, and fill in May/June. Control the buys and propane is cost effective. Don't and you get whacked.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Why convert? Get a Roth oil tank and be done with it. Oil is cheaper and has more heat content per gallon. Propane is unregulated. They can raise your rates as much as they want, whenever they want.

Tommy

 

[Richard Cranium]

If you get an above ground, you can get a drop outlet and fill your own 5 gallon tanks off of it also. Buy your propane when it is cheap in the summer. Plus buy as big of tank as you can. The more propane you buy at once the cheaper per gal. it is.

 

[brewchief]

What do you want in features in a new furnace? Do you want or need a wifi thermostat? Does your house heat evenly now or are there warm and cold spots.

What furnace brands are available in your area and what is the support for each as far as parts?

A major part of the new furnace is the installing contractor, I would rather have a perfectly installed low line furnace then a hacked in top of the line unit.

I work for a contractor that installs Lennox equipment, at this time Lennox will offer a 10 year parts warranty to the original owner, as a dealer we will match the parts warranty with up to a ten year labor warranty as long as it is maintained every year, this way we make a few bucks doing maintenance and the customer knows how much it will cost them each year, no surprises.

 

[Streetbu]

Two years ago there was an accident and propane was as high as $5/gal for a time, during the coldest winter on record and for almost 2 months iirc. Fuel oil was high for a while when the war was in full swing but seems to have stabilized some. We fill our tank in either the end of April/beginning of May, or at the end of August. Then usually once more during the season as needed.

 

[Muzzy]

I had a Triangle Tube condensing boiler setup installed just in time for winter last year.

We have two 100 gal propane tanks up against the side of the house that get topped up roughly monthly, though they could go longer. I don't think they have ever filled more than 100 gal a trip, but last winter was mild. For reference, we heat about 2500 sqft.

My local propane company has been great in both price and service when compared with the experiences of my co-workers. YMMV.

 

[MUD DAWG]

Awesome info as always, thanks guys.

To answer a few questions. I'm not planning on the conversion until at least the spring, or possibly even a year from now. I'm just trying to get all the facts and figures first. I also know the installers will do a better job in nicer weather, than in the middle of winter with frozen hands and feet.

I have looked into just replacing the tank. By the time it's all said and done, it'll cost me $3,000 for a new quality tank (indoor) and outdoor will cost $4,400 , and I'll still have a 14 year old furnace. For about $4,500 I can convert to a brand new propane furnace. Doing the math and asking propane furnace owners in the area, it seems like fuel costs will be a wash.

Biggest issue with oil is insurance companies. Oil heating is a fast moving target with them. Every year they come up with new rules and requirements. Some companies will not cover an oil spill. I've never had any issues with oil so far, but I'm done dealing with insurance company BS.

That's a good point brought up about buying propane off season. I already do that with oil. However, I think even if I rent the tank, I can place myself on Will Call instead of automatic top ups.

Any suggestions on where to look for info on specific furnace brands I might be considering? I do agree that the installer is just as important as the furnace. York offers lifetime warranty on the heat exchanger, but I assume by the time you for labor and everything else, it'll probably cost a few bucks.

Thanks again.

 

[Junkman]

I am in the process of doing the exact same thing. I removed a Thermo Pride oil fired hot air furnace, and it is being replaced by a propane boiler, and 2 air handlers. So far, the boiler is installed, and the 1st floor air handler is installed and working. The home has never been more comfortable, and my electrical bill went from $300 a month down to $150, since there is only one blower motor on the system. If the plumber ever gets caught up, the second floor air handler will be plumbed, and the 1st and 2nd floors separated. The other nice thing is that we will have better control over both heating and cooling when everything is completed. I used to use 800 gallons of oil a season, and a 40 pound bag of pellets daily. Now, I don't have a pellet stove, nor the problem of storing and handling the pellets. For me, the propane is a win win situation.
Before you pick your propane supplier, check the pricing carefully. Also, try to get a contract price for the season.
You didn't mention domestic hot water heating, and that is another item to consider. If you go all propane, you can get a better price. The propane industry has a website.... oiltopropane.com , which will tell you about various monetary incentive offers that are available in your area from local propane dealers. There are Federal and sometimes State tax credits available for certain qualifying equipment. Same goes for installing energy efficient air conditioning units.

 

[Firebrick43]

Most companies around here won't do will call if you rent the tank and you obviously can't shop around. Also most want to be in control of you do a contract as well. That's why it's best if you can have at least most of winters fuel on hand. Then who cares if it goes to five dollars.

 

[MUD DAWG]

OK so you guys have convinced me to own and not rent the tank(s). So I'll have to factor that in as well. I have the cash, so budget billing and financing isn't a factor. Are propane tanks good for 10 years? Can they be re-certified?

I have a forced air furnace, and I don't see converting to a boiler being feasible. Is an annual professional cleaning required for propane furnaces like it is for oil? Or is it something a competent home owner can do?

As for converting the other appliances to propane, I'm not sure if it's worthwhile? The water heater, stove, and dryer are all electric. I'm sure the propane will save a little over electric, but the payback for conversion might be quite a while. I also like the fact that when my water heater developed a small leak, I replaced it myself and didn't require a plumber or gas technician to install it.

 

[larry4406]

Not sure where you live (update your profile) but I would consider a dual fuel propane furnace if you are dead set on going propane. Basically it is a heat pump which then kicks in the burner when the temperature demand change exceeds what the heat pump could do (ie, what the electric resistance heater would have done) or when the efficiency falls off during extreme cold events.

I had propane heat, water, cooktop, and dryer at my previous house. Fuel bills were horrible and propane pricing was out of site. I did not own the tank so could not fuel shop. If I ever were to use propane again, it would be with an owned tank, buried, and 500 to 1000 gallons.

The company I work for uses Lennox HVAC equipment in all of our homes. I have encountered extremely few issues with their products and the few I have were installation issues not manufacturing issues.

Here is a link to a Lennox dual fuel unit as an example
http://www.lennox.com/products/heating-cooling/packaged-units/lrp14df

 

[John_Michalak]

If it was me I would look into larry4406s recommended dual fuel furnace if you are set on propane. I had to replace my oil boiler last year and thought about all my different options. In CT on a price per btu basis oil is less expensive. In the 25 years they have tracked pricing oil has always been cheaper and some years significantly cheaper. I got a better efficiency oil unit and smart thermostats that saved me a lot last winter (oil was cheaper though)

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk

 

[MUD DAWG]

Sorry, I updated my info. I'm in Ontario, Canada. Fuel costs, right now it seems to be a wash around here. Of course no one can predict where either commodity will be a few years from now.

I'm definitely not set on propane, but I think my options are pretty limited. Geothermal and heat pumps don't add up. If you guys want some comic relief, google "Ontario electricity fiasco". Electricity prices have gone up 400%, and the money ***** we hired has finally come around and admitted her mistakes. It's a really dire and ugly situation for fixed income families, especially the ones with baseboard heaters. Many of them have fallen below the poverty lines because of electricity prices and now depend on government subsidies, which are pittance to begin with.

Needless to say, I'd much rather not add to my electricity load.

 

[Streetbu]

As far as the other appliances, I would not replace them yet. As the fail or wear out that's when you replace them with propane units.

 

[sean Buick 76]

Hi there, I would stay with Electric for the other things like water heater etc for now...

I live in Alberta and just did a propane setup in my second house as I needed something to keep the house heated when no one is there to stoke the wood fireplace. I have natural gas at the property line about 15 feet from the house however the fees and delays etc would have been a huge issue for me being I was in a time crunch to heat it before winter hit.

What I went with is a 250 pound tank, and I may buy another one if needed. I went with the small tank because two guys could load it into my pickup truck empty and the house is remote so delivery costs of a HUGE tank would have been high. I paid about $400 for my tank and they gave it a fresh 10 year certification and it is about 5 years old when I got it I would estimate. New was about $800, so I saved cash. The same company that I bought my tank from is the one that is filling it and because I own the tank I can just call them when it is getting low compared to if it was a rental then they will keep it topped up but more fees... I like the option of being able to move the tanks myself, vs needing a HUGE machine or crane to move the big tanks.

Look into Apollo Propane that is who I am dealing with and they are great.

If you do buy a furnace I suggest buying the natural gas conversion kit for it to keep it on hand so that in the future you or the new home owner would have the parts to do that... Easier than tracking down parts 10 years from now.

 

[Firebrick43]

Tanks above ground last along time. I know of several tanks with dates in the late 40's. Dads 1000 gallon tank (bought by grandpa) was set in 58. Keep the paint up and put a double layer of landscaping cloth/decorative rock and they last for decades. The only one that rust are the one ill supported and therefore sinking or are allowed to grow up weeds and grass keeping the bottom of the tank wet and therefore rusting out at the bottom, normally a pin hole.

I am leery of buried tanks for that reason and the fact if they do leak you won't know for much longer time.

 

[TTTTTT]

Located a few hours NE of Toronto, put in high efficiency propane furnace, stove, takeoff for BQ about 7 years ago. Right now we have a group deal from Sparlings (Superior also) at $.49 /L.locked in. Pretty cheap Only have a 1000l tank (250gal I guess) My neighbor just put a 3800L. (1000 gal) tank in with WIFI level notification, very cool. My tank rental is only $60/year which they usually wave. My neighbors is I think $150/ year for the big tank. Neighbor got free installation, credit of 650l. and other stuff for going with Superior. I'm not sure if you can own your own tank here or not.....Gov regulations but may be wrong on that. I heat with wood as much as possible so I maybe use need 1 or 2 fillups a year( small tank) My other neighbor who has absolutley everything (not frig) on propane even his 12K backup generator maybe spends $2000/year. That includes all heating of a 2500 sq ' house year round.

 

[MUD DAWG]

If you do buy a furnace I suggest buying the natural gas conversion kit for it to keep it on hand so that in the future you or the new home owner would have the parts to do that... Easier than tracking down parts 10 years from now.

A neighbor says he remembers the day his dad bought a propane furnace, and insisted on getting the NG conversion kit because he though NG was gonna be here. Well 25 years later, and still no NG unfortunately.


So far, I've been able to get one quote. It's obviously the busy season for heating guys, and I'm very glad I'm not forced to do this now. Interestingly, I called up 2 propane suppliers. 1 of them offered no discount of owned vs rented tank. And the other offered very little discount. So clearly I still have a lot of calling around and number crunching. One neighbor is in similar situation, and he thinks just replacing the oil tank is a good option, but I'm not so sure. Still lots to look into.

Thanks for all the info guys

 

[MUD DAWG]

From what I've been quoted so far, it seems like owning the propane tanks doesn't pay off. 3 of the 4 fuel suppliers I've called offer no discount for owned tanks at all. The rental fee is only $60/yr. And 2 of the companies I called will offer a contract locked in price in the summer time. Of course the devil is in the details, so I'll have to examine those closely.

Is a variable speed furnace that much better than a dual stage? I know it's better, but is it worth the extra cost?