Copper airline questions....

[Sworks120]

I am in the process of designing my copper, Type L, air line system for my garage. I am using 3/4" as the main line running along the ceiling line approximately 6" below to allow for take-offs on the top. There will be 4 drops in 1/2" line and 1 that will go to the hose reel on the ceiling. Copper lines are being secured with superstrut and vibration clamps.

So here are the questions:
1. I am placing regulator/filter units at each drop, should I go 1/2" or go to the 3/8"? Will there be much difference?

2. Should I have an additional regulator between the compressor and the distribution lines? This would essentially be a main regulator. Should it be 3/4" to match the main line?

3. For those with ceiling mounted hose reels, did you mount a regulator at the ceiling as well? what about a ball-valve for draining?

I have found lots of great info but just want those points clarified. Thanks for the help.

 

[John in OH]

I am in the process of designing my copper, Type L, air line system for my garage. I am using 3/4" as the main line running along the ceiling line approximately 6" below to allow for take-offs on the top. There will be 4 drops in 1/2" line and 1 that will go to the hose reel on the ceiling. Copper lines are being secured with superstrut and vibration clamps.

So here are the questions:
1. I am placing regulator/filter units at each drop, should I go 1/2" or go to the 3/8"? Will there be much difference?

Really depends on the length of the drop run. Personally, I'd stay with 1/2". Make sure you provide a ball-valve at each drop for drainage.

2. Should I have an additional regulator between the compressor and the distribution lines? This would essentially be a main regulator. Should it be 3/4" to match the main line?

If you have a GOOD filter/regulator with gauge at each drop there is no real need for a main regulator. Alternate configuration would be to use a main regulator and eliminate the local regulators, or local filter/regulators at only selected drops.

Sizing a main regulator depends on the flow specs published by the regulator manufacturer. A regulator should be selected based on its design capabilities, not pipe size. But for a short answer, stay with 3/4".

3. For those with ceiling mounted hose reels, did you mount a regulator at the ceiling as well? what about a ball-valve for draining?

If you don't have a main regulator, then a local regulator would be desirable. Of course, if you are going to use this hose reel only to pump up tires then it doesn't matter.

For a ceiling reel, I would probably run the drop from the header to the filter/ regulator and blow-down valve (both at or near an accessible point) and then directly up to the reel.

 

[larry_g]

So here are the questions:
1. I am placing regulator/filter units at each drop, should I go 1/2" or go to the 3/8"? Will there be much difference?

2. Should I have an additional regulator between the compressor and the distribution lines? This would essentially be a main regulator. Should it be 3/4" to match the main line?

.

Do not confuse the flow rate of the regulator with the pipe size. Make sure that the regulator will flow your needs. Many manufactures have the same regulator with different size entry and exit ports. It sounds like you plan on having a few regulators in the building. I would suggest that you reserch the flow rates of the regulators you need and then standardize on one specific regulator so that you can stock one rebuild kit that would handle all of your regulators.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[Falcon67]

Mine was (will be) black iron but:

1 - no, but I ran all 1/2 because it's a good all around size. Note - I did put a "dedicated" reg/water trap on the port by the mill, but the rest of my drops were just a "ball valve - T to quick connect - drop leg - ball valve" assembly. I then made up both a reg/oiler and a reg/water separator with a quick connect ****** and quick connect on the other end. I moved those around the shop as required. Saved a few $ doing that.

2 - I used a 3/4 ball valve at the compressor with full line pressure in the system.\

3 - yes, hose real needs a shutoff, reg and a drip line IMHO. You might get away without the drip line if the reel is way down the line.

 

[Sworks120]

Mine was (will be) black iron but:

1 - no, but I ran all 1/2 because it's a good all around size. Note - I did put a "dedicated" reg/water trap on the port by the mill, but the rest of my drops were just a "ball valve - T to quick connect - drop leg - ball valve" assembly. I then made up both a reg/oiler and a reg/water separator with a quick connect ****** and quick connect on the other end. I moved those around the shop as required. Saved a few $ doing that.

2 - I used a 3/4 ball valve at the compressor with full line pressure in the system.\

3 - yes, hose real needs a shutoff, reg and a drip line IMHO. You might get away without the drip line if the reel is way down the line.

If I am understanding correctly, you placed a valve to pressurize each drop, plus a valve to blow out each drop? This in addition to a "system" valve?

 

[pro machine Engineering]

In my opinion it would be cheaper to go with black steel pipe. Not sure how big your shop is but 1/2 copper pipe is going to have trouble keeping up because of the restricted size of the pipe. especially if you have others over and you are running several tools at once. I ran 1 1/2 black pipe all around my shop its 30 x 40 in a closed loop system I run the air into a regulator and a refrigerated air dryer right out of the compressor. If I run a tool that needs the pressure cut down I put an inline control beween the airline and the tool

 

[mad57]

I have done pretty much your idea and it works perfect...i ran black iron from my out side compressor shed under ground and into my shop, converted over to copper because of the irregular shapes and blems in the black iron, ran 3/4 copper with a shut off as soon as it entered the shop into shop has a drop leg off the t below the shut of valve with simple gas valve, than up to ceiling over garage doors (7) between each door theres a 1/2 drop into a regulator which has a bottom drain valve, out the side of reg it goes to hose reel wall mounted via flex hose, i did add a centered shut off valve on the 3/4 ceiling run so if im not using the other half of garage lines or if there was a leak i could isolate them. up and running for about a yr works great and drains water great, i drain my main comp at the first day of each week as well as my reg valves and NEVER have water issues. good luck.

 

[Sworks120]

This is a small shop, aka 2-car garage. My plan is to get this installed and next summer work on a small addition on the one side of my garage to build a compressor shed for a nice 60g Quincy that I found. For the time being it will be ran off of my existing compressor but I plan to design it so that the line to the new compressor will be easy to add later.

I am debating on having a filter/regulator at each of the 4 (possibly 5) drops as it will add up. I have been looking at this in either the 3/8" or 1/2" model. Was also looking at a non-filtered option for certain locations to save a few $.

 

[mad57]

hf has the blue reg for $25 on sale

 

[Falcon67]

If I am understanding correctly, you placed a valve to pressurize each drop, plus a valve to blow out each drop? This in addition to a "system" valve?

Yes, so I can keep unused connections turned off.

 

[Carl B]

1/2" copper tubing I looked at the other day - was something like $3.50 a foot - 90 degree elbows were like $3.00 each - - - - I was SHOCKED!! Home Depot had very few copper fittings left for sale - and even less copper tubing... Just VERY EXPENSIVE at this point.

 

[rodm1]

1/2" copper tubing I looked at the other day - was something like $3.50 a foot - 90 degree elbows were like $3.00 each - - - - I was SHOCKED!! Home Depot had very few copper fittings left for sale - and even less copper tubing... Just VERY EXPENSIVE at this point.

They are way over price there check another supplier. For some reason there copper fitting are way over priced in some types and sized. Not saying that is bad but look around you might be surprised.

 

[A_Pmech]

In the interest of keeping this thread on-topic, I have deleted the 8 posts referencing PVC air plumbing. The topic has been beaten to death here more times than any of us can count and it always spirals down into a flame fest revolving around who is an idiot. This is a thread about copper air plumbing, let's keep it that way. Any further posts on the subject of PVC air plumbing in this thread will be deleted.

OSHA's position on PVC piping is clear, it is prohibited for compressed gas use. After reading OSHA's position letter below there really is nothing left to argue:

February 14, 1989

Mr. Jack Cannova Tempe
Industrial
412 W. Dryon Street
Tempe, Arizona 85283

Dear Mr. Cannova:

In response to your recent inquiry concerning our regulatory position on the use of plastic pipe for compressed air systems, I trust this letter will clear up any confusion over the issue.

It is our position that PVC pipe shall not be used as a means of transporting compressed air. This position follows the manufacturer's own statements that PVC is unsuitable for compressed air systems. We do allow the use of certain ABS materials that are specifically designed for compressed air systems. One such product is "Duraplus" air line piping system ABS pipe. However, as in any such system, the manufacturer's specifications on acceptable pressure and temperature considerations must be followed.

In closing, misapplication of a product, such as using PVC for compressed air systems, may result in citations and penalties being issued dependent upon the specific conditions.

I appreciate your concern and inquiry into this potential safety hazard.

Sincerely,

SAM A. ROGERS
Bureau Chief

From this link:

http://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19880520.html

 

[mikeyr]

I dont understand why the need for making this more complicated than it needs to be. Why the drop to 1/2" ?

I went 3/4" copper all the way, everywhere. Same size fittings everywhere, same size pipe everywhere. Why make it complicated with 1/2" drops ?

My lines have full compressor pressure all the way, I regulate it at each drop (that made it expensive, buying 7 regulators and 5 water separators and the copper was not cheap to begin with) but my last shop had the regulator at the compressor and it was a pain to always have to walk to the back of the garage, this is much nicer.

What is reasoning for going to 1/2" on the drops ?

 

[A_Pmech]

On the subject of Copper air plumbing, there are a few resources I can recommend:

The Copper Tube Handbook

Contains information on the various types of copper tube, pressure ratings and methods of making connections. It is worth noting that tin/lead solder is not sufficient to make high pressure connections for compressed gas service in larger sizes of copper tube.

I can also recommend these flow and pressure drop tables from Engineering Toolbox. WARNING: Tables from the link are in SAE or Metric units. Make sure you're using the right set of tables!

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/compressed-air-pipe-pressure-d_36.html

 

[csp]

I dont understand why the need for making this more complicated than it needs to be. Why the drop to 1/2"?

I can't answer for the OP, but it's the same as any other plumbing system. Main trunks are larger than drops. That and cost.

For example, we have 1.5" gas line coming into our house. We sure don't have 1.5" line throughout the entire system, including branches going to appliances.

On the opposite side of your question, if you don't need 3/4" lines on every drop, why spend the money on 3/4"? The procedure to install a different size fitting is the same.

If that little difference equates to complication I'd love to have something that simple complicating my life!

 

[Falcon67]

On the one I set up, I used 3/4 for a ways just to let the air expand and hopefully cool and drop out some of the water. When I put the system back up in the new shop, I will instead use a water separator at the compressor and just run 1/2" black pipe everywhere to the drops. The volume in a 1/2 system in a small shop like mine is plenty for any of the tools I run, including spray guns. Just one guy using one outlet. In a production shop, for sure 3/4" or 1" feed loop with 1/2" drops.

The chart link posted by Pmech says it well - If I had a tool using 20cfm (none that big here) @ 100 PSIG at the end of 100' of 1/2" pipe, I'd have a 1~2ish PSI drop. Eh.

I used the 3/4" pipe that was in the old system to stick the wireless temp/wind sensor for the weather station about 15' up in the air.

 

[Sworks120]

My reason for the change in size was mainly cost related...12ft of 3/4" copper is $48 here, I believe 1/2" was around $24. By the time I bought the copper, fittings and ball valves, san the adapters to mate quick connects or the Superstrut for mounting purposes I was $200. By the time I purchase regulators/filters, etc. this little project will be pushing $1000.

Thanks for those links, I have already read though the charts and found some good info. I guess my biggest concerns were around downsizing from 1/2" to a 3/8" at the regulator but that seems to be a non-issue. I have to order my regulators yet but should be starting this project this week.

 

[Nighttrain]

Please post pictures as you go. I plan on doing copper this winter in my shop.

 

[Motofixxer]

I have 3/4" copper visible in some pics, feel free to browse.

 

[mikeyr]

ok, cost is a good reason to drop to 1/2" I thought there was some other reason that I was not aware of.

When I plumbed my shop 20 years ago and again my new shop this year, I did not think to look at the price difference for 1/2" I went with 3/4" all the way just because it was easy to grab bags of 3/4" fittings and know I would have what I needed.

 

[Ramblur]

This is how I did my shop about 5 yrs. ago and it has worked great. I used a 3/4" reg/filter from McMaster Car about 20'(pipewise) from the compressor for the whole system. I thought if I needed I would use a smaller regulator with quick-disconnects at the individual drops but I haven't had too. My mains
angle slightly back to the comp and then to the far end and have ball valves
so I could blow them down. 1/2" drops come off the top and also have a drip leg and ball valve to drain them. Truthfully though moisture has not been a problem even here in the swamp. I'm a happy camper!

I just looked back thru my posts,3/4" type L was $16and change for 10'.

 

[A**holes Garage]

I was thinking of copper but I'm a terrible when it comes to soldering / brazing. Looks good and is solid when it's done though.

I ended up going with RapidAir / AirNet aluminum tubing with compression fittings, etc.

http://www.rapidairproducts.com/airnet.asp

 

[Sworks120]

Ramblur, your design is one of the ones that I have modelled mine after, especially your takeoffs from your 3/4" main. I hope to get a chance to start cutting the super strut tomorrow for each of the mounting locations. I figure there will be about 5' of vertical pipe for each drop, having a support directly above and below the "T" going to the regulator/quick connect and another half way up the wall should support each drop well enough. The walls are 16" OC so for the horizontal runs I thought every 32" or even 48" would provide plenty of support. I sprayed the super strut that I am using to mount the reel to the ceiling in tremclad tonight so it will be ready to go up tomorrow.

With the location for the compressor, do I really need to worry about how close it is to the first regulator/quick connect considering the entire distribution system will be pressurized? total length should be around 50- 60 feet.

 

[akdiesel]

Ramblur, nice set up and finish work. Looks very professional.

Sworks120, as for the price stated on the copper tubing, have you looked at all the other options? RapidAir was mentioned but there are other choices as well that are not that far off from the copper prices and in some cases may be even cheaper.
I am talking about stainless steel. I ran 3/4" ss tubing for my air line system through out my 60x40 shop. I used .035 wall tubing that is plenty rated for the psi it will ever see. I also installed a knock out tank just after the main air compressor tank. This is for two reasons.
#1 is to knock out the water from the heated air when it cools going into another tank aka Joule-Thomson effect.
#2 is to reduce the amount of fittings and bends in the tubing so I simply came off the bottom of my main 3/4" distribution line for my drops.
To help in the cost of my system I gathered lots of Swagelok and Parker fittings off of Ebay. This is the most expensive part of the system but for longevity, ease of installation, and the fact that I like stainless and work with it regularly I am glad I went this route.
On a side note adding an additional drop or fixing a leak is alot easier than copper, black pipe, or even that other 3 letter bad word.

 

[rmuell01]

I was thinking of copper but I'm a terrible when it comes to soldering / brazing. Looks good and is solid when it's done though.

I ended up going with RapidAir / AirNet aluminum tubing with compression fittings, etc.

http://www.rapidairproducts.com/airnet.asp

Do you have pics of your setup? especially of the drops?
thanks

Rob

 

[A**holes Garage]

Do you have pics of your setup? especially of the drops?
thanks

Rob

I just ordered it Monday and won't be installing until December.

Mine is pretty basic, about 60' of pipe, up and over a single car bay and down the middle of the garage suspended from the ceiling. It has (3) total drops including the compressor hook up.

Two drops are aluminum and are clamped to walls, one hose drop will come off a "T" and connect to a rack mounted hose reel.

 

[PT Doc]

This is how I did my shop about 5 yrs. ago and it has worked great. I used a 3/4" reg/filter from McMaster Car about 20'(pipewise) from the compressor for the whole system. I thought if I needed I would use a smaller regulator with quick-disconnects at the individual drops but I haven't had too. My mains
angle slightly back to the comp and then to the far end and have ball valves
so I could blow them down. 1/2" drops come off the top and also have a drip leg and ball valve to drain them. Truthfully though moisture has not been a problem even here in the swamp. I'm a happy camper!

I just looked back thru my posts,3/4" type L was $16and change for 10'.

Ramblur,

How is the fit between the metal filter bowl and the body on the Norgren filter? Is it nice and tight or is there a bit of wiggle and play between the 2? Looks like Norgren makes the Speedaire regulators/filters and the Speedaire f/r unit I saw was looser than I would have thought it should be. Thanks

 

[jam022316]

Not to highjack this thread, apologies in advance, but where do you guys get your copper piping air compressor connectors? I have never been able to find them in the big box stores.

 

[csp]

What "copper piping air compressor connector" would you be referring to?

Sorry but that description is a bit too vague to know what you mean.

All of the copper parts you're seeing in this thread are common plumbing fittings.

 

[jam022316]

What "copper piping air compressor connector" would you be referring to?

Sorry but that description is a bit too vague to know what you mean.

All of the copper parts you're seeing in this thread are common plumbing fittings.

lol. No prob. I mean air compressor female (or male) type connectos that have a copper end that you can solder in to copper. I know that's not a very technical description. Most compressor ends I find have threads on them. I don't understand how you would connect them to copper.

 

[GreyOwl]

Just one example.

http://www.homedepot.com/Plumbing-P...Id=10051&catalogId=10053&superSkuId=202904880

Then a 2-3 foot flex hydraulic hose between the two.
similar to this

http://www.tractorsupply.com/agricu...draulic-hose-assembly-3-4-in-x-36-in--1810270

Charles

 

[jam022316]

Just one example.

http://www.homedepot.com/Plumbing-P...Id=10051&catalogId=10053&superSkuId=202904880

Then a 2-3 foot flex hydraulic hose between the two.
similar to this

http://www.tractorsupply.com/agricu...draulic-hose-assembly-3-4-in-x-36-in--1810270

Charles

Awesome that solves my problem! Thank you! I was always looking for the wrong thing I didn't realize that's how you connected. I just always assumed they made some sort of fitting. thx!!

 

[holdover]

"1/2" copper tubing I looked at the other day - was something like $3.50 a foot - 90 degree elbows were like $3.00 each - - - - I was SHOCKED!! Home Depot had very few copper fittings left for sale - and even less copper tubing... Just VERY EXPENSIVE at this point. "

Was in Lowes in Roanoke VA today and checked prices... Type L 1/2" copper is 18.99 per 10" stick. Most 1/2 fittings go for about 1.00, but cheaper if you buy the contractor pack of 10. 3/4" type L was about 30.00 for 10', fittings were about twice the price of 1/2". I am sure you can do better price wise at a plumbing supply place.

 

[mc1984ss]

I have a question about copper airlines that is related to this topic but different from the original post. What do you plan on using to flux and solder your airlines? I have read numeroud discussions about this and there seem to be 100 different ideas. Some people say you should use the stuff made for air conditioning lines and others say just the everyday plumbing stuff. I have my copper airlines mocked up in my garage and it is already to solder. I just need to know what to use and find the time. Also I posted a link below that you may have already seen. It is a pretty good diagram and gives anyone a good idea to start planning a layout.

http://www.tptools.com/StaticText/airline-piping-diagram.pdf

 

[vonhef]

"1/2" copper tubing I looked at the other day - was something like $3.50 a foot - 90 degree elbows were like $3.00 each - - - - I was SHOCKED!! Home Depot had very few copper fittings left for sale - and even less copper tubing... Just VERY EXPENSIVE at this point. "

Was in Lowes in Roanoke VA today and checked prices... Type L 1/2" copper is 18.99 per 10" stick. Most 1/2 fittings go for about 1.00, but cheaper if you buy the contractor pack of 10. 3/4" type L was about 30.00 for 10', fittings were about twice the price of 1/2". I am sure you can do better price wise at a plumbing supply place.

Thats why I used 1/2 stainless steel tubing with Parker compression fittings. The stainless tubing was around 1.65 per foot... but the Parker fittings can be very expensive. Fortunatly I had access to used ones and only needed to purchase the ferrels for them.


Link to Parker fittings:
http://www.parker.com/portal/site/PARKER/menuitem.7100150cebe5bbc2d6806710237ad1ca/?vgnextoid=f5c9b5bbec622110VgnVCM10000032a71dacRCRD&vgnextfmt=default&vgnextdiv=687516&vgnextcatid=2740151&vgnextcat=DOUBLE%20FERRULE%20COMPRESSION%20FITTINGS

 

[djjsr]

Pretty much any solder you can get at a hardware store will be adequate for soldering copper in a normal compressed air system. Very high pressures, as in some refrigeration systems, require brazing.

Copper.org has real good information about the different copper alloys, soldering, brazing and just about anything you would ever need to know about copper.

Some soldering information is here ...........

http://www.copper.org/applications/plumbing/techref/cth/cth_5join_sod.html

 

[Ramblur]

Ramblur,

How is the fit between the metal filter bowl and the body on the Norgren filter? Is it nice and tight or is there a bit of wiggle and play between the 2? Looks like Norgren makes the Speedaire regulators/filters and the Speedaire f/r unit I saw was looser than I would have thought it should be. Thanks

Rock solid fit here.


BTW, I used 95-5 and prior to this project I'd only ever soldered pipe once before so its really
not that hard to pick up. Just keep in mind that the flux and solder flow toward the heat.

 

[R6 Racer]

I have a question about copper airlines that is related to this topic but different from the original post. What do you plan on using to flux and solder your airlines? I have read numeroud discussions about this and there seem to be 100 different ideas. Some people say you should use the stuff made for air conditioning lines and others say just the everyday plumbing stuff. I have my copper airlines mocked up in my garage and it is already to solder. I just need to know what to use and find the time. Also I posted a link below that you may have already seen. It is a pretty good diagram and gives anyone a good idea to start planning a layout.

http://www.tptools.com/StaticText/airline-piping-diagram.pdf

I asked that question here a while ago...
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=t95484

I went with the Stay-Brite
http://www.weldfabulous.com/Filler-...e/Stay-Brite-8-18-Silver-Solder-p4543269.html

Steve

 

[Bruce4310TX]

One thing you need to look at is you should have a minimum of 50 ft of copper line on main line this is needed to help the water vapor drop out of suspension or you will get water past your filter and into your tools or paint gun.