copper airlines- installation soon

[byrdman]

I'm about ready to start running 3/4" schedule "L" copper airlines in my shop. Even though there's a million posts on this topic across several forums, I still have questions. Hope you guys can help. Attached is a basic diagram of what I'm planning. You're kinda seeing through the front wall into the shop. The dark band at the bottom represents two courses of concrete block. The compressor will be outside(not pictured). The shop is 35" wide, 28" deep with 10' ceilings.

-The main line from the compressor will enter the building in the middle of the back wall. This means I would need to "split" the feed 3 ways in order to run lines to the other 3 walls. Is it a problem to split the main source 3 ways, as opposed to making one long run that feeds all drops? I'm worried about pressure drop if two air tools get used simultaneously.

-Most diagrams I've seen say to angle the main feed slightly to control water in the lines. That seems easier said than done. To angle the main feed line and keep the drops vertical, everything's going to need a bend. What do you use to bend the tubing so it doesn't kink?

-Most diagrams I've seen feature a a shutoff valve before each drop, but I'm thinking of going with one shutoff for the whole system. Anybody see any issues there? It's a little less convenient to depressurize the whole system instead of just one drop, but I figure there's also fewer joints to leak.

-What crafty ways have you come up with to mount the tubing to the wall? All I see at the hardware store is designed to mount electrical conduit. That would work, but I'm curious as to what others may have done.

THANKS y'all for any tips/suggestions/watchoutfor's! Help me out, and I promise to post lots of pictures of my installation! (assuming of course, the install doesn't turn out like complete garbage!)

 

[Wile1Coyote]

Couple of thoughts Byrdman

1 if you are going to do a four way intersection there and I understand why you want to. I would place shutoff valves in each run so that you can 'power down' the sections you aren't using, I am worried about pressure drop as well, realistically if you get the whole thing pressured up and it is tight you should be fine but I can see issues with air leaking at all of those extra joints and fittings, I would keep it contained if possible.

2 from your drawing it makes it look like you plan on having fittings at the bottom of your runs, you shouldn't because of water. extend the run a foot or so past the connection point and place a drain petcock at that point so you can empty the water out of your systems. This will give you drier air to your tools. I'm guessing you know this and the drawing just doesn't show it but wanted to be sure. I would do this BIG time as well right at your entry point, bring the air into the center of that first vertical and the water should condense right away and fall straight down, leave an extra large section below the inlet so more water can collect there.

3. For the blast cabinet specifically you may want to add an air drier inline. Wet sand isn't fun.

4. As far as hold downs visit your local woodworking store where they have a better selection of hardware. You should find something both asthetically pleasing and inexpensive there. I go to woodcraft near me for that kind of stuff but not sure if you have one of those or not.

5. You may want to put a pressure gauge at the end of each run so you know what the pressure is at that point and not what it is at the tank, an inline gauge near the tool does the same thing of course but I find it to be a pain to have the extra weight of the gauge near the tool. Just my .02.

6. Over all remember to keep the runs away from heat if you can. Cold pipe will trap the water and keep it off of whatever you are working on.

Not sure about bending the pipe, that is going to be really tough given the wall thickness you will want so the thing doesn't explode on ya. You might try to find some 15 degree angle connectors so you can give the thing a slight upward slope without having to bend the pipe. In your case though seeing as your first run is vertical I am not sure that the sloping is really going to help you much.

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with. GL

Wile1

 

[Ken Greene]

one thing that was recomended to us at work when we had a compressor engineering firm look at our air system was to make a loop around the whole space. thast right not a dead end. they said it improved the capabilites for the air supply. We did it and it does keep up better then before we made the loop.

 

[OH-MAN]

one thing that was recomended to us at work when we had a compressor engineering firm look at our air system was to make a loop around the whole space. thast right not a dead end. they said it improved the capabilites for the air supply. We did it and it does keep up better then before we made the loop.

Very good advise! loop the ends together.
They make two hole copper straps if the pipe is tight to the wall. If you want to move it off a bit get some uni strut and the correct clamps.

 

[Lost Pup]

Quick Thoughts:

Place air/water separator and filter at inlet to garage.
Do the Loop as suggested, 2 way air will help when more than one tool is operating.
Noticed the Blast Cabinet was furthest from the air supply source so size the main line to serve the max CFM @psi at any this point of service in the garage.
We place the main line below the takoffs and bleeds are below the mains. We place legs on the bleeds to allow water a place to collect thus clearing the main. Set the main line level arounfd the perimeter. Daily the systems is bled down with all bleeds on the main opened. Bleeds are ball valves with a screened filter end directed downward.
All air takeoffs have ball valves as well.
We also hooked up a few dedicated devices with ball valves as well. A tire fill air hose chuck with gauge and 25 foot of hose. It rests on a cresent shaped wall holder that was for garden hose.
Near the workbench we attached a handled air blower chuck with a 4 foot length of hose. Great for keeping the workbench clear.
Curious about the cooper lines but we always use black iron threaded pipe for air.

 

[OI812]

I'm about ready to start running 3/4" schedule "L" copper airlines in my shop. Even though there's a million posts on this topic across several forums, I still have questions. Hope you guys can help. Attached is a basic diagram of what I'm planning. You're kinda seeing through the front wall into the shop. The dark band at the bottom represents two courses of concrete block. The compressor will be outside(not pictured). The shop is 35" wide, 28" deep with 10' ceilings.

-The main line from the compressor will enter the building in the middle of the back wall. This means I would need to "split" the feed 3 ways in order to run lines to the other 3 walls. Is it a problem to split the main source 3 ways, as opposed to making one long run that feeds all drops? I'm worried about pressure drop if two air tools get used simultaneously.

Here is my .02. Not sure if you will be able to find that fitting. In 14 years I haven't seen one, but that's not to say there isn't one. Don't worry about pressure drop on that small of a system. I've worked on systems with MILES of pipe and haven't seen that much of a problem. Pressure drop is more of a concern with fluid moving through pipe.

-Most diagrams I've seen say to angle the main feed slightly to control water in the lines. That seems easier said than done. To angle the main feed line and keep the drops vertical, everything's going to need a bend. What do you use to bend the tubing so it doesn't kink?

Why do you want to bend the tubing? Well if you want to bend it, you half to make it soft. So get a really large torch and heat the pipe to cherry red. This takes the temper out of it. Let it cool all on its own, don't wet it down. Carefully bend the angle you want. You can do it the easy way and just sweat in a fitting or two.

-Most diagrams I've seen feature a a shutoff valve before each drop, but I'm thinking of going with one shutoff for the whole system. Anybody see any issues there? It's a little less convenient to depressurize the whole system instead of just one drop, but I figure there's also fewer joints to leak.

One valve would be fine, your not running 20,000 feet. Valves are nice, but at 5 to 7 dollars a ball valve, is it worth it? Heck it only takes 30 seconds if that to drain the system. Chances are your solder joints will be fine, for leaks it will be the packings on the valves.

-What crafty ways have you come up with to mount the tubing to the wall? All I see at the hardware store is designed to mount electrical conduit. That would work, but I'm curious as to what others may have done.

You can use unistrut, and if you use that then I would get what they call a "cusha-clamp". It's a unistrut clamp with a plastic insert. A better and cheaper idea IMO is what they call a "copper van clad" hanger. It has a bell on the bottom with two, two hole straps on the top. I have seen them at Home Depot. They work good, because you run a screw through the center into wood and put the pipe over top. It keeps the pipe about 1" off the wall. They are a slick little unit. I was trying to find them on the internet and couldn't. I will see if I can find out who manufactures them.

THANKS y'all for any tips/suggestions/watchoutfor's! Help me out, and I promise to post lots of pictures of my installation! (assuming of course, the install doesn't turn out like complete garbage!)

Don't forget to put pads under the feet of the compressor before you mount it down. Vibration thing. Also you a flexible braded hose rated for air at the compressor to prevent vibration into the air system.

 

[byrdman]

great responses, thanks!

from your drawing it makes it look like you plan on having fittings at the bottom of your runs, you shouldn't because of water. extend the run a foot or so past the connection point and place a drain petcock at that point so you can empty the water out of your systems. This will give you drier air to your tools. I'm guessing you know this and the drawing just doesn't show it but wanted to be sure. I would do this BIG time as well right at your entry point, bring the air into the center of that first vertical and the water should condense right away and fall straight down, leave an extra large section below the inlet so more water can collect there.

Good points here. The fittings at the end are for drainage, the takeoff point is the little horizontal stub about a foot from the bottom. I drew ball valves for drains, I guess I should have drawn petcocks. Excellent point about doing the drain drop at my entry point, I will do that. I've got filter/regulators ordered that I'll be placing at each take off.

I haven't found a 4-way fitting yet either. I'll have to get crafty with a couple of T's.

Ken, OH-MAN, lost pup- thanks for the insight on the loop design. I hope I won't have to go that route as the loop design would interfere with other layout ideas I had in mind. However, I can see where the loop could moderate pressure problems, so I'll keep that in mind if I have problems later.

Why do you want to bend the tubing?

If the main line on top is sloped for drainage, and the drops connect at 90° angles, the drops will not be vertical on the wall unless there a bend somewhere. Maybe I should just leave it a little crooked?

You can use unistrut, and if you use that then I would get what they call a "cusha-clamp". It's a unistrut clamp with a plastic insert. A better and cheaper idea IMO is what they call a "copper van clad"

What's unistrut? Thanks for any "copper van clad" info you can dig up too!

 

[OI812]

Unistrut..... go to this link Unistrut Systems

and go to mechanical applications. There are some good pictures there.

When you come off your line to go down the wall, you should have a tee and a 90, this will allow you to get the line veritical. Tee and 90 will allow you to get just about any angle you want. Still working on copper van clads.

 

[red caddy]

Byrdman, the pitch back toward the entry point dosn't need to be severe, 1/16in per foot of run is enough, 1/8 per foot is a little better, but on a long run, starts to look funny. a common conduit bender will easily bend the 2 or 3 deg.'s you will need to make the drops look straight, just make all the bends the same distance from the top line for a good appearance. I prefer to make all the taps from the top of the main line, with a "T",a return bend, and 2- 45's, and plumb / square the drop with a slight "roll" of the top 45 deg. elbow. this makes a good looking installation, and reduces the condensate carryover to the drop, and only adds a little to the total cost for the extra fittings. hope this helps, C-YA RED

 

[rcroob]

Saw this in another post...very helpfull
http://www.tptools.com/statictext/airline-piping-diagram.pdf

 

[byrdman]

Byrdman, the pitch back toward the entry point dosn't need to be severe, 1/16in per foot of run is enough, 1/8 per foot is a little better, but on a long run, starts to look funny. a common conduit bender will easily bend the 2 or 3 deg.'s you will need to make the drops look straight, just make all the bends the same distance from the top line for a good appearance. I prefer to make all the taps from the top of the main line, with a "T",a return bend, and 2- 45's, and plumb / square the drop with a slight "roll" of the top 45 deg. elbow. this makes a good looking installation, and reduces the condensate carryover to the drop, and only adds a little to the total cost for the extra fittings. hope this helps, C-YA RED

Like this, right?

There's another reason to take the taps from the top. I had about decided against doing that, but may reconsider now. Thanks for the tip.

rcroob: that is a helpful diagram, thank you. I had seen that before but had never really paid attention to item "Y", the safety release valve. I don't see that feature mentioned very often. How many of you folks out there have installed the release valve feature?

 

[OI812]

There is already a safety relief valve on the compressor. No need to add a second one. The only times I have added them was when I put a system in that had two different pressures.

 

[red caddy]

Byrdman, Egg-zactly right. Once your supply run is mounted, and the angle found, you can prefab each tap with a simple fixture, and sweat the return bend to a pre-installed stub in the "T", goes pretty fast, but the " bend in place" method will git 'er done. Paul

 

[OHEKK]

RCROOB... Thanks for that info!

I've had an air system using plastic and more recently one with the copper.

My next system will definately be with the black pipe!

Thank
Tom

 

[Darren M.]

Reviving this old thread to ask why....

(WOW!!! The search works!!! )

RCROOB... Thanks for that info!

I've had an air system using plastic and more recently one with the copper.

My next system will definately be with the black pipe!

Thank
Tom

(Yes the search works but after 45 minutes I'm not looking for the answer of this so....)
Why black pipe vs. copper?

I'm in the middle of this decision right now. I like the idea of threads vs. brazing but I'm looking for a more definitive answer...
Anyone?

 

[fireman]

Why black pipe vs. copper?

I'm in the middle of this decision right now. I like the idea of threads vs. brazing but I'm looking for a more definitive answer...
Anyone?

Threaded joints are a major source of leaks (except for natural gas because it's less than 5 PSI). I ran type L copper (rated at 200 PSI) in my shop (total of about 100' in 3 branches with a shut-off and a drain valve in each one). I've never had a leak and the install was simple. If you use threaded pipe, you better have a pipe threader or plan on 100 trips to the hardware store.

 

[Darren M.]

Good point. I hadn't thought of that. So, general rule of thumb.... Greater than ** psi braze/copper otherwise threads are ok? (Sorry, I'm quite ignorant in this area.)

 

[fireman]

Good point. I hadn't thought of that. So, general rule of thumb.... Greater than ** psi braze/copper otherwise threads are ok? (Sorry, I'm quite ignorant in this area.)

Threaded pipe is just as good (if not better) for high pressures. Just harder to make it leak free.

 

[ChevyRestorer/C3]

When Sweating joints is there a better solder to use or do you just use what the plumbers use. Will the lead solder stand the 120-150 PSI without failing? Just curious as what to use. Thanks

 

[Charles (in GA)]

When Sweating joints is there a better solder to use or do you just use what the plumbers use. Will the lead solder stand the 120-150 PSI without failing? Just curious as what to use. Thanks

Extracting this information from a table in the Copper Tube Handbook............

At 150 degrees F, for tubes up to one inch, the maximinum working pressure of joints made with ................. is ....................... psi

Alloy Sn50, 50-50, Tin-Lead solder is150 psi.
Alloy Sb5, 95-5, tin-antomy solder is 625 psi
Alloy E .................................... is 475 psi
Alloy HB .................................. is 710 psi

reference, The Copper Tube Handbook, by the Copper Devolopment Association.

http://www.copper.org/resources/pub_list/pdf/copper_tube_handbook.pdf

http://www.copper.org/applications/plumbing/techref/cth/cth_main.htm

Charles