Copper Pipe Help

[JohnHenrys48]

This is sort of an emergency.

The water line that feeds my property sprung a leak last night... Needless to say, I was up to my knees in muddy water for 6 hours last night and still don't have the problem fixed.

The line is 1 inch soft copper. This copper comes "rolled" and therefore is not round but rather oval shaped. I tried my best to "round out" the ends but to no avail.

I ended up temporarily sealing the leak with poly tube and hose clamps.

My question is... How the heck to you repair this type of pipe if I can't get the standard couplings to fit ?

Any advice will be appreciated.

thanks,

Leaky Jim

Side note: The leak is located in the barn turnout...i.e. no close power supply. I ended up at HD and bought 200 feet of heavy extension cord and one of those halogen work lights. I have to say, that light is great. I'll look up the model later, but it's the 600 watt, dual bulb version that sits low on the ground. It has two power settings and provides great light...with the added benefit of keeping you warm when used in close proximity...and you're soaking wet... LOL

 

[bmwpower]

I'm not plumber, so I'm not sure I can help, but I've never seen soft copper used as a supply. I can't imagine the burst pressure on that type of pipe is that great. I have, from what I remember while at work, a thick black poly tube good for 300 psi supplying my house and garage.

My guess would be you need to cut off the pipe where it's leaking and splice in a new piece. On the end of my poly pipe after entering the residence is a connector of sorts that changes to a hard copper pipe connection. You might need something like this.

I would go to a plumbing supply place ASAP. That will probably be your best bet.

All else fails, call a plumber.

Good luck!

 

[W-Cummins]

Cut it, flare the ends and use a coupling, or by swaging the end of one side and solder it back togher. I assume that if you do the swaging operation you will need to make an extention piece and have 2 joints. The coupling will also give you more length and allow you to replace the broken part.

William...

 

[JohnHenrys48]

Thanks for the replys.

I'd like to "round" up the ends and sweat a coupling in there... I called a local plumbing supply per your suggestions and they recommended a "sizing tool"...they don't carry it though... If I can get the ends back to round I'd be home free...

I live in AZ and I think it's pretty standard to use a run of rolled (soft) copper from the main to the house, and actually is required to run it under the slab (no joints).

 

[JohnHenrys48]

Hey, I just thought...maybe that "sizing tool" is similar to the muffler/tail pipe expansion tools... If I could find one that's < 1inch... Dang... Nothing's easy is it....

 

[6t7gto]

John,
when we installed the 2" water line to our car wash, the copper pipe was in the same oblong condition.
there is a tool that you insert in the copper pipe and make it round. it also flares the pipe for our connectors.
you smack it in with a hammer.

but....i borrowed it from the city water department guys when they tied us in at the street.

call a good sized plumbing supply house, they should be able to put you on the right track.

david

 

[mjribeiro]

You maybe able to make a sizing tool that will round out soft copper. I'm thinking of running a bolt with washers through a round piece of rubber, like a shock bushing. Tighten down on the bolt, and the rubber will expand, maybe rounding out the soft copper.

 

[JohnHenrys48]

Thanks for all the replys.

I was able to find the mysterious "sizing tool" at a local commercial plumbing place.

I can't supply a picture right now, but it's a two piece tool. One piece fits over the copper tube, and the other is a semi-tapered piece that drives into the copper tube... Bad description I know... basically the outside piece forms the outside radius and the inside forces open the tube.

And you do smack it with a hammer...

I'll send an update when/if I get this resolved.

thanks again,

Jim

 

[W-Cummins]

I mentioned what they are called in the other message. here is a link to some of them...

imperial makes nice ones. I also like/have the ridgid flaring tool listed it's better than the other style that imperial sells but as you can see it's more than the whole other kit

William...

 

[May Pop]

If you cant find the proper size fittings get a larger size that slips over your tubing. then weld the joints with sil-flo. Its like braze. It will fill a large gap unlike solder.

 

[Satatic]

Around here all we ever use is compression fittings on the 1"type K. When we splice underground we use compression.

 

[JohnHenrys48]

Well...The third attempt did the trick.

First off, I screwed up and assumed the line was 1 inch...It's actually 1 1/4.

So, consequently, that sizing tool I bought didn't help at all. I'll try to get a picture of it up later, for reference.

Anyway, I ended up using a 1 1/4 dowel rod to "round" out the pipe. Didn't quite get it the first time, there ended up being a drip. So...cut that section out and do it again...

Thought I had it the second time, but as I was adding just a little more solder to the joint on the soft copper side the whole thing "pinged" and I saw it move...sure enough, there ended up being a pin whole leak around that joint.

So after some head scratching and several choice words....I realized that it's almost impossible to make a straight joint on an existing line. First, the pipe had a slight curve in it, so fitting a section of hard copper ended up leaving it angled...and a straight coupler just didn't fit right.

Then the light bulb came on...I made a "loop" using 4 elbows and sections of straight pipe. This allowed me to produce any angle I wanted...and I was able to get good solder flow on all the joints.

I'll try to snap a picture before I back fill the hole.

As you can see, I'm not a plumber by any means, but I have sweated copper with success...at least I thought I could up until this point... Those 1 1/4 inch pipes have a lot of mass in them and to get the whole thing warmed up was a chore. The cold, wet soil around the area would **** all the heat out of the pipe.

Satatic, I wonder if that's the reason to used the compression fittings underground on soft copper ? That, and the non-roundness of the soft copper.

The local supply place did not have a 1 1/4 "bolt" on compression fitting. They seem to be going to something that's call a "Pro-Press" fitting, which requires a pretty expensive tool to use...

Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks for all the advice. I'll try to put some pictures up of that sizing tool and the end result of the splice...

thanks,

Jim

 

[Windshield]

Hi
I'm a new guy, and a Plumber. When I run into egg shaped, out of round copper tube I use a cresent wrench and turn it around it until a fitting will fit. Been in the trade for 26 years and have never used a sizing tool.
Paul

 

[cc_rider]

I never fail to learn something new around here...

- Adding a 'loop' to the line was a stroke of genius; it allows you to make little adjustments with no hassle. Such a loop is often used to allow for thermal expansion and contraction; cars have similar features on brake lines, etc. I'm gonna re-plumb my house soon, so I'll keep that little trick in mind.

- Rounding out the pipe with a wrench sounds like the way to go; I'm gonna try that next time I run into the problem.

- Annealed (soft) copper is fine for supply lines, although such a large size is unusual these days; seen the price of copper lately? (!!!)
Soft copper comes in 'M' and 'L' grades just like the hard stuff; the difference is the wall thickness. I think 'L' is the thicker one. They are color-coded as well; 'M' is marked in red, 'L' in blue. I'm not a plumber so I don't know which codes allow which grades/thicknesses; one of those 'Code Reference' handbooks might be helpful for such info...

c.

 

[JohnHenrys48]

Thanks for all the replies guys. I'm slow on the pictures...T-day (week) with relatives took most of my time plus other honey-do's...

I ended back filling before getting any pictures, but I will try to snap one of that sizing tool just for reference...

This site is great...

thanks again.

Jim

 

[Charles (in GA)]

May I suggest the Copper Tube Handbook, by the Copper Development Association as a good reference.

http://www.copper.org/resources/pub_list/pdf/copper_tube_handbook.pdf

Warning: 6.38 MB file, needs broadband or DSL to download in a reasonable time.

Charles

 

[Willy Victor]

Don't use propane to sweat copper, use Mapp gas it burns much hotter.

Willy

 

[Clik]

Last I knew solder wasn't code for underground use. Had to be brazed. Compression fittings were a no-no also. I always used a flarring tool and flare couplings.

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

Last I knew solder wasn't code for underground use. Had to be brazed. Compression fittings were a no-no also. I always used a flarring tool and flare couplings.

A little late with this advice.

 

[ctgoodman]

Hey I've been there on another forum. Was in a search and thought I could lend some insight and never payed any attention to the post dates and before you knew it I had resurrected a 5 year old thread.. Now this one has to be some kind of record though ~8 years..

 

[Simeon]

Wonder if JohnHenry is still on the site and can tell us how the joint has lasted. Some real world experience, as it were.