Copper pipe isn’t invincible

[haptiq]

All the copper vs pex arguments deserve a little evidence now and then. The shop I work at was built in 1964 with most of the plumbing under the slab or inside wall cavities that are dern near inaccessible. My neighbor happened to be a young laborer on the job back then and gives me insight into how they built these old Amocos. Anyways we noticed a 6000 water bill one quarter and immediately started tracing lines and drilling holes to see what was wet. Copper pipe to outside spigot is leaking bad. Today we busted up the concrete to try and tunnel under to fix it.
Is 53 years all you get from copper? Would buried pex last longer?
My vote is probably for both.

 

[Bruce 993 SEA]

Copper pipe to outside spigot is leaking bad

Frozen pipe? Copper will burst from expansion of water as it freezes...

Let us know what caused it.

Cheers

 

[TomC750]

Copper installed in an office floor local to me only lasted a few years before it started leaking. Copper is not used in concrete anymore, as it is known to corrode.

 

[Shawn S]

I have seen that when it's encased in concrete. We managed one condo complex, 1 started leaking about 5 years ago, and we had 2 more condos spring leaks within months. These places were built in the late 70's.

 

[EOC_Jason]

I remember neighbor across the street copper piping in house started leaking I can only assume it was corrosion... I think the house was about 40 years old...

 

[Jackfre]

Well, pex may last longer, but please report back once we see it lasting that long. My Grandson will look for your report. He’s six.

 

[BucksCtyMike]

Google William Levitt. Hes a builder from the 1950 who built 1000's of houses in NY/NJ/PA. He built entire communities in suburbia.

All had radiant heat cooper piped concrete slabs.

About 0% of them are functioning today. Concrete with a high sulfur content is usually the problem.


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[brownbagg]

concrete will eat copper

 

[Rory Bellows]

Maybe nowadays they put the copper in some pvc pipe through concrete. I don't really know. With a $6,000 water bill I would be busting the concrete real quick or turning off the water at the street. Good job finding the leak.

 

[strutaeng]

$6,000 water Bill? Is that right? You don't mean $600?

I had numerous water leaks at my old house. I had to fix and mt city has a deal where if you show them repair receipts, they will deduct %50 of you water bill.

I did this once. But seriously, if my water bill was $6,000, Id be filling for bankruptcy!

 

[ard]

6000 gallon perhaps?

(No dollar sign in OP...)

 

[Musicinabottle]

Well, pex may last longer, but please report back once we see it lasting that long. My Grandson will look for your report. He’s six.

Exactly! Besides, 50 plus years is a long damn time. I think most anything will start bucking after that long.

 

[Tuxy]

copper reacts with the lime in the concrete. we wrap copper with denso tape when its underground or in concrete. but I usually put it inside a pvc drain pipe with some insulation around it. that way if the ground moves at all its not likely to cause a **** up, and rework isn't fun when its in concrete.

the pex v copper argument is pretty ******** at the best of times. pex is good for some things and copper is good for other. I have installed both in the past, in New Zealand for instance there are about 10 or more versions of pex. some are alot better than others and some are fantastic but if you install them wrong they will destroy your house.

Im reminded of the issue I'm deciding on at the moment, a new ute. I have herd so many horror story's about the new ford rangers however its the most sold ute in the country at the moment so of course there will be more horror story's than any other makers.

you can install pex correctly and get 50 years no problem. however I have demoed copper from a building that was 125 years old and it was still water tight.

its a case of what you want it to do and for how long you want it to last. pex is almost never used from the work I have done on commercial work

 

[haptiq]

Frozen pipe? Copper will burst from expansion of water as it freezes...

Let us know what caused it.

Cheers

Fairly certain its corroded, the leak is either in or under the interior slab and our frost depth per code is like 4 inches. So far this winter I think there was one morning when the mud froze over about a 1/4” lol. We see frozen pipes occasionally in unheated uninsulated walls or exposed pipe outside.

$6,000 water Bill? Is that right? You don't mean $600?

I had numerous water leaks at my old house. I had to fix and mt city has a deal where if you show them repair receipts, they will deduct %50 of you water bill.

I did this once. But seriously, if my water bill was $6,000, Id be filling for bankruptcy!

It was $5,7xx. This is quarterly. Before the leak (or before it got worse) the bill was in the mid 1000 range. I am not the owner nor do I live in the same district but from what I understand, stormwater tax is somehow tied into the water usage. Either way, the leak is about like leaving a sink on full blast 24/7 for a few months. Once we caught it, we started turning the meter off unless we need water.

 

[haptiq]

Forgot to add, I ran pex with copper crimp rings underground to my garage at home. I guess I’ll report back in 50 years if it makes it.

 

[Randy in Maine]

Copper reacts with the concrete and will leak. A problem when someone runs a #2 oil feed line to the heating system using copper in the concrete basement floor. Many leaks.

Sleeving it in something at least helps a lot.

 

[rlitman]

Fairly certain its corroded, the leak is either in or under the interior slab and our frost depth per code is like 4 inches. So far this winter I think there was one morning when the mud froze over about a 1/4” lol. We see frozen pipes occasionally in unheated uninsulated walls or exposed pipe outside.









It was $5,7xx. This is quarterly. Before the leak (or before it got worse) the bill was in the mid 1000 range. I am not the owner nor do I live in the same district but from what I understand, stormwater tax is somehow tied into the water usage. Either way, the leak is about like leaving a sink on full blast 24/7 for a few months. Once we caught it, we started turning the meter off unless we need water.

Yikes. If the corrosion was caused by the water chemistry, the water company may be on the hook for repairs.

 

[kwschumm]

Copper reacts with the concrete and will leak. A problem when someone runs a #2 oil feed line to the heating system using copper in the concrete basement floor. Many leaks.

Sleeving it in something at least helps a lot.

In Phoenix copper was usually used in the slab foundations and they are failing right and left. Houses there were built this way for decades.

 

[dutchgray]

Copper reacts with the concrete and will leak. A problem when someone runs a #2 oil feed line to the heating system using copper in the concrete basement floor. Many leaks.

Sleeving it in something at least helps a lot.

Our oil line here is a coil of soft copper, plastic coated.
My whole house has its plumbing in the screed floor, all copper except the gas which is iron, its 1970's so I am expecting it to start failing sometime soon, will replumb on the surface when it does, still running the original boiler to.

 

[coljar]

A few years ago, I started running everything that goes in the ground or under concrete, except gas lines, in conduit. I probably won't live long enough to benefit from it, but I hope someday someone will be able to say, "I don't know who this guy was, but he must of been a forward thinker".

 

[strutaeng]

If your frost depth is shallow, can you jyst re-rout new lines overhead? Just leave them exposed and use a cutoff valve with drain for when it freezes.

Basically, just abandon the underground pipes. The only underground piece will be the stubout.

 

[haptiq]

If your frost depth is shallow, can you jyst re-rout new lines overhead? Just leave them exposed and use a cutoff valve with drain for when it freezes.



Basically, just abandon the underground pipes. The only underground piece will be the stubout.

We considered doing that. The decision stands that the next sign of a leak and we abandon all underground lines.

 

[Showkey]

In Phoenix copper was usually used in the slab foundations and they are failing right and left. Houses there were built this way for decades.

Florida same story..........leaks from concrete and sand ( acidic) causing corrosion. Common retro fit is PEX from the attic down. Specialist advertise one day conversions with minimum drywall disruption.

If I was doing PEX install I would not have hidden fittings in sand or concrete.

 

[strutaeng]

We considered doing that. The decision stands that the next sign of a leak and we abandon all underground lines.

I had the same issue at my old house built in 1960. I had leaks under the slab every year. I abandoned the copper and rerouted everything with pex through the attic. I had to do some cutting a patching gypsum board, but not too bad.

I never figured out what was the cause, but my neighbors also had similar issues.

 

[johnnyradiant]

50 years is a good time to call it. In a house you can get branches last longer depending on use but regularly used lines....

I look after an 82 unit building where copper has lasted 10 years on main lines. After replacing most of it twice it's time to seriously upsize and switch it all to Pex. My first recirc line lasted 8 yrs we upsized one size and went with K. Yippee, it lasted about 12 yrs. Switched the recir line to PEX and it is still going strong after 15, at a fraction of the cost.
Life has to do with the water quality, the volume of water you are moving, and the physical install of pipe and what it is contact with.

My mom's house has some copper still holding water in that is over 60 yrs old.

Years ago there was a developer of a subdivision that was putting copper pipe in the slab. He hadn't finished the subdivision before the first house were already dealing with failed pipe.

Copper can last a couple years or a lota years. Let some sun on some pex and watch it fail in the 1-2 yrs range. Expose some pex to other elements and you can jeopardize it's life too. Don't sleeve pex where it should have a sleeve and watch it fail prematurely.

A crimping or expanding tool is less likely to burn a whole apartment complex down. Another reason why pex is great in a repipe. Very few good professionals burn buildings down (they take care and precautions), but there are torch wielders out there that do light up the area they are working in rather than just sweating their joints.