Copper pro press for airlines?

[Grant Gunderson]

X-posting this from my shop thread for more eyeballs / advice in regards to airlines. I’m building out a new ski / bike shop. I used copper years ago in my first home shop when it was relatively cheap and it worked great.

I used Black Iron in the current home shop and it was quite a bit more work as I had to cut thread and ream a ton of sections. Worked great for about 8 years then the last two I’ve been getting a ton of rust in it. It’s very humid here and I’ll be very close to the bay with the new shop.

I’ll be installing a 5hp screw compressor for the commercial shop space with an air dryer (open to suggestions on compressors too. Looking at screw for both noise and air volume for the machines). This will be in a dedicated purpose build compressor closet. A few of my ski tuning and suspension bleeding machines that it will feed are very expensive, so clean air is a must.

@zmotorsports recommended. AirCom, but I don’t see a ton of AirCom dealers online and no local compressor shop, so might go with rapidair fastpipe. The question is to do their compression of press fittings? Either are stupid expensive. At $45 or so per tee etc, those add up quickly!

That brings me back to copper. Has anyone used copper with pro press fittings for air instead of soldering them? It makes copper look pretty attractive both in price and ease to install, as the fittings are an ⅛ of the cost. The cost to rent the pro press tool is about the cost of a single Rapidair fitting. In regards to other plumbing tools I’m fully setup with everything but a pro press crimper. I’m fully capable of sweating the fittings, but it’s a time ****. Plus Im not supper keen on doing it around 100 year old dry timber beams either.

I’d also like to get back up and running asap as I have a ton of customers waiting on me to complete the move / buildout, but I want to do this right so it’s reliable.


Shop space is 2500sqf with exposed timber roof so pretty easy to run straight lines. In the past I’ve hung pipe using unistrut. I plan on doing the same as we will need to run a bunch of electrical conduit anyways.

I’ll also say I look at shop layouts as an evolution rather than a fixed setup. I’m fully expecting once we are bs j up and running for a few months I’ll move work stations / machines around to optimize workflow so flexibility is adding drops is ideal. That’s a major drawback to black iron.

Thinking 1” main loop around the shop with ¾ drops for each machine / work station.

 

[yatg]

rated 200psi for compressed air, according to this chart.

 

[ADKAmateur]

Price it out - I can't imagine running copper of any size would be cheaper that a rapidair kit or one of the knockoffs. If you buy the kit it has a lot of fittings in it so you may not need to buy too many more?

 

[Grant Gunderson]

Price it out - I can't imagine running copper of any size would be cheaper that a rapidair kit or one of the knockoffs. If you buy the kit it has a lot of fittings in it so you may not need to buy too many more?

If I go with L 1” copper is 40 cents a foot cheaper than rapid air fastpipe. The bigger difference is the fittings are around $5 vs $40 a tee. Plus every hardware store in town carries it and the pro press fittings. No one locally sticks rapidair.

My thoughts are run L up high in 1” where it’s safe from getting bumped etc then use ¾” m for the drops.

Still need to draw out the system to calculate actual costs but my suspicion is those rapidair fittings will quickly add up.

 

[ADKAmateur]

Wow. Thx - never thought copper would be cheaper. Suprising. I know people also use PEX. That could be even cheaper? It has a max pressure rating of 160 psi.

 

[Cruzan80]

I know you have some air hog machines, that need clean air. The other part of that equation is do they need high PSI, high CFM, or both? The max pressure rating of the lines may or may not be a factor, depending of this.

Also, I would make sure to look at "traps" to catch any water post-dryer that may eventually fall out in the lines. You have mentioned you are in a very humid place, and wouldn't want gravity to end up putting water into the drops.

 

[rlitman]

...My thoughts are run L up high in 1” where it’s safe from getting bumped etc then use ¾” m for the drops...

Huh? L is heavier walled than M. Also, with only a 5HP compressor (or even 15HP), maybe someone can correct me, but I don't see any use for drops over 1/2". The 1" loop may make sense for pressure loss due to length issues. At my last company, we had an air distribution system running two 10 HP compressors in parallel, each with a 120 gallon tank, a main line I recall was 1-1/4" copper running hundreds of feet (at least 400'+), and still only 1/2" drops.

As for ProPress, I just used (borrowed from work) the M12 press system recently and was very impressed. Heck, even the $100 manual hydraulic press tools can beat out soldering for time, and from everything I've seen, press copper makes solder obsolete in every way.

 

[PoorUB]

If I go with L 1” copper is 40 cents a foot cheaper than rapid air fastpipe. The bigger difference is the fittings are around $5 vs $40 a tee. Plus every hardware store in town carries it and the pro press fittings. No one locally sticks rapidair.

My thoughts are run L up high in 1” where it’s safe from getting bumped etc then use ¾” m for the drops.

Still need to draw out the system to calculate actual costs but my suspicion is those rapidair fittings will quickly add up.

This has probably been beat already, but 1" pipe? 1" will move a lot of air, heck, 3/4" will move a lot of air!
Do you really need 1" pipe?

 

[Grant Gunderson]

This has probably been beat already, but 1" pipe? 1" will move a lot of air, heck, 3/4" will move a lot of air!
Do you really need 1" pipe?

One of my machines alone requires 14.1cfm at 105 psi. Want to make sure I have overhead left for the other machines / workstations / future machines, etc.

 

[carlaisle]

What are your air needs? You didn't give dimensions on your shop space other than square feet, but from a glance it looks to be under 40' wide. 1" pipe is good for 175CFM at 175psi on a 80' run and will still supply 43CFM at a quarter mile.

Propress is awesome for speed and hot work, less so for durability. It fails much sooner when subjected to routine vibration/movement. This may be a consideration in your shop environment. I would use a spray bottle of water on the old wood where needed and sweat it all, but that's just me.

Black pipe is the cheap way out, but definitely more work. With proper water control before the air enters your piping system you should not have any rust issues. Since you describe your area as humid, that would entail an aftercooler sufficent to bring the air leaving the compressor back down to ambient temperature, a condensate separator, and then a refrigerated dryer in that order. That will keep 99%+ of the moisture from even entering your air system. If you need to eliminate all of it, your final stage will be a desicant dryer, either for the entire system or applied at point of use.

Pex also works fine for air distribution and has the added benefits of being rust proof and the fastest and cheapest to install. Just be mindful of your pressure needs and its operating range.

 

[andyvh1959]

How about heavy truck air brake tubing? Truck air brake systems use nylon reinforced air brake tubing rated to 150 max psi working pressure and are rated to 600 psi burst pressure. Air brake tubing and a wide variety of compression or push to connect fittings are widely available. All air brake fittings are rated for 150 psi and 600 psi burst. Heavy truck air brakes are subjected to tough duty, exposure, sun/ozone, road salt, temperatures from -40F to 150F, constant vibrations when in transport.

Its very easy to work with, alloows for long runs, bends easily to minimize the need for elbows in some routing. Multiple colors and sizes. You can cut the tubing with a fine tooth hacksaw but better to use a tubing shears which are easy and cheap to find. Air brake tubing does require a thermal break from the compressor to allow the air to cool enough for the temperature rating or the tubing. Push to connect fittings are very common, easy to use and virtually fool proof. Or just use standard air brake tubing compression fittings.

 

[mike93lx]

Throwing it out there... I bought the vevor propress tool for about $600 and it included 1/2, 3/4 and 1" dies.

It worked great for the one project I had (30ish crimps?)

I don't like buying these cheap tools, but the cost difference to Milwaukee and Ridgid is eye watering, plus I couldn't find a rental

 

[PoorUB]

How about heavy truck air brake tubing?

1" air brake tubing?

 

[mike93lx]

I can't imagine 3/4" being inadequate.

Check out supplyhouse.com for fittings if you go the press route

 

[Dig Doug]

Not sure if your familiar with this type of hardware, it can be used w/ electrical pipe and plumbing lines

using these parts install goes fairly quick

Here are a few pipe hanging hardware pieces that can make the install process much easier any plumbing supply houses have these readily available. Make a list and have it priced out 20ft long pipe is easier to manage
install process
drive in your Sammy’s and make the 3/8 all thread all before install use a 3/8 nut to secure everything in place
run your hardware throw up the pipe in the hardware, start on one end install your unions and inline tees as you run the loop !

 

[Dig Doug]

I would run the loop on the outside framed wall above the sub purlins, to it get up & out of the way
tee up & off the loop w/ 1 inch pipe to get it over to the wall, then convert to 3/4 or 1/2 depending on needs for the drop

NOTE - you might need an air compressor permit from the city, they might have opinions on materials that get used

This isn’t a home garage business anymore.

also need to pay attention to the water discharge / purge
potentially - oil water mixture needs to be filtered prior to dumping into a drain line / floor sink w/ a air gap

 

[KenC]

Another questioning the need for 1" main line. I would consider using 1" from the compressor vertically. Then 3/4" in a full loop, serving each drop from both sides. My highest usage 'tool' is my HVLP spray gun that uses up to 15CFM according to Devilbiss. And I've never starved it with a 3/4" line. Same is true with my die grinders, also air hogs but don't get used for long periods without a break, unlike the spray gun.

I've not used a pro-press but have seen them in action. And really don't think it is appreciably faster than sweating. I did mine all at once, cut, clean, flux then fit all together. Then sweat all at once, went quickly. Probably no more than an hour for 50' with 6 drops.

But I hear your concern with old dry wood and open flame. I actually hung mine down a few inches with temp wire hangers and moved it up to the permanent hangers once finished.

 

[mike93lx]

Another questioning the need for 1" main line. I would consider using 1" from the compressor vertically. Then 3/4" in a full loop, serving each drop from both sides. My highest usage 'tool' is my HVLP spray gun that uses up to 15CFM according to Devilbiss. And I've never starved it with a 3/4" line. Same is true with my die grinders, also air hogs but don't get used for long periods without a break, unlike the spray gun.

I've not used a pro-press but have seen them in action. And really don't think it is appreciably faster than sweating. I did mine all at once, cut, clean, flux then fit all together. Then sweat all at once, went quickly. Probably no more than an hour for 50' with 6 drops.

But I hear your concern with old dry wood and open flame. I actually hung mine down a few inches with temp wire hangers and moved it up to the permanent hangers once finished.

Propress is a lot faster. Quick clean, debur, place fitting and press. No flux, no wiping, no heat shielding, no cooling, no drying lines(I know, not applicable here) . And you can much more easily fit up and adjust lines than sweat fittings

The press action takes a couple seconds and it's also much easier to be consistent and avoid leaks.

If it wasn't so good, there wouldn't be one on nearly every plumbing truck

 

[jhelrey]

Propress is a lot faster. Quick clean, debur, place fitting and press. No flux, no wiping, no heat shielding, no cooling, no drying lines(I know, not applicable here) . And you can much more easily fit up and adjust lines than sweat fittings

The press action takes a couple seconds and it's also much easier to be consistent and avoid leaks.

If it wasn't so good, there wouldn't be one on nearly every plumbing truck

And in a commercial building, no need to disable the smokes on the floor where the work is occurring.

 

[MrFreeze]

I used ProPress for my shop air lines in 2019. It's been great so far. A contractor friend lent me the hydraulic tool. Once I had it fitted, it took me about 5 minutes to make all the joints. I ran a 3/4" copper main and 1/2" drops. Here are some pics for reference.








Good luck with your project,
MrFreeze

 

[Grant Gunderson]

Not sure if your familiar with this type of hardware, it can be used w/ electrical pipe and plumbing lines

using these parts install goes fairly quick

Here are a few pipe hanging hardware pieces that can make the install process much easier any plumbing supply houses have these readily available. Make a list and have it priced out 20ft long pipe is easier to manage
install process
drive in your Sammy’s and make the 3/8 all thread all before install use a 3/8 nut to secure everything in place
run your hardware throw up the pipe in the hardware, start on one end install your unions and inline tees as you run the loop !

Thanks. I haven’t seen those wood screw to threaded rod anchors before. That’s gotta be a lot cheaper then using unistrut for each hanger.

I would run the loop on the outside framed wall above the sub purlins, to it get up & out of the way
tee up & off the loop w/ 1 inch pipe to get it over to the wall, then convert to 3/4 or 1/2 depending on needs for the drop

NOTE - you might need an air compressor permit from the city, they might have opinions on materials that get used

This isn’t a home garage business anymore.

also need to pay attention to the water discharge / purge
potentially - oil water mixture needs to be filtered prior to dumping into a drain line / floor sink w/ a air gap

Those upside down U feeders are exactly how I did my last garage. I realize the idea is that the condensation stays in the main line and drains back to the drain leg. Problem is if you don’t regularly drain it soon as you turn on the system the air pushes the moisture into the drops.

Does anyone make a good automatic drain valve? Ie one that will drain the system nightly?

Also who makes quality pressure reduction valves? I’ll need to drop the working pressure down for a few of the machines too.

I used ProPress for my shop air lines in 2019. It's been great so far. A contractor friend lent me the hydraulic tool. Once I had it fitted, it took me about 5 minutes to make all the joints. I ran a 3/4" copper main and 1/2" drops. Here are some pics for reference.








Good luck with your project,
MrFreeze

That looks slick. Good to hear someone with first hand experience with using the propress fittings for air.


I spent all day playing Tetris with all of the tooling cabinets. That was a hell of a workout. Hopefully I’ll have the basic workstations configured in a day or two and can start drawing up where I need the electrical/ air lines ran.

 

[Dig Doug]

any pressure regulator will work
It will drop the pressure down to what ever you need, you might want to use a 3 stage filter regulator

 

[Grant Gunderson]

any pressure regulator will work
It will drop the pressure down to what ever you need, you might want to use a 3 stage filter regulator

I’ve used cheap ones from the big box hardware stores that won’t hold the pressure they are set at for more than a year. So looking for something a bit better made. Milton?

 

[Dig Doug]

You might want to set up a 3 stage filter and pressure regulator at the machine along with a automatic blow off valve or drain bowls prior to use mine is like the IR $184 from depot

make sure to use a drop leg

 

[Dig Doug]

I’ve used cheap ones from the big box hardware stores that won’t hold the pressure they are set at for more than a year. So looking for something a bit better made. Milton?

this is a semi rabbit hole
pressure is one thing
volume is another CFM

need to figure What CFM you need pressure was 45 psi if I remember correctly

IE 3/8, 1/2 or 3/4 port on the regulator

2 options

make contact w/ local air compressor company to service your new compressor & dryer see what they offer
Or local tool supplier not a big box store - wood working shop, tool depot, speciality store etc

buy
on line

pick a brand I’ve used IR before

Milton -

https://miltonindustries.com/collections/frls-regulators?srsltid=AfmBOooyGVLJdUXA3Nv39G_gifSQ3ct7l1lMnkqBdTbZtj5TbFgTWjaZ

 

[Dig Doug]

Fastenal

has regulators

https://www.fastenal.com/product/Pneumatics/Air Preparation?query=Air pressure regulators&categoryId=603524&sortBy=Best Match

 

[Grant Gunderson]

Thanks. We have a fastenall in town an amazing local hardware store called Hardware sells that has damn near everything, and Grizzly’s hq and show room. but no dedicated compressor shop that I know of.

Tons of industrial supply shops for hydraulics and that cater to the refineries, too.

It’s strange to me as growing up in eastern Wa we had two compressor shops in town do to all of the agricultural and multiple plumbing supply shops.

 

[andyvh1959]

1" air brake tubing?

Well yes, 1" air brake tubing is not too common, black 3/4" air brake tubing may be the largest common size. But it is 3/4" OD just like copper, PEX, and other "tubing" sized products, sized by OD.

 

[KenC]

Propress is a lot faster. Quick clean, debur, place fitting and press. No flux, no wiping, no heat shielding, no cooling, no drying lines(I know, not applicable here) . And you can much more easily fit up and adjust lines than sweat fittings

The press action takes a couple seconds and it's also much easier to be consistent and avoid leaks.

If it wasn't so good, there wouldn't be one on nearly every plumbing truck

Oh, without a doubt, but, I was speaking in the context of a one time use. Saving a few minutes would come at a huge per minute cost.

Best of all, In a pro situation the helper can do it without concern for quality of work or fire watch.

 

[mike93lx]

Saving a few minutes would come at a huge per minute cost.

Do you know where you are??

We don't justify tools here. We just get them