Correct way to run wires to load center

[DerStig]

I have been reading up on this and I am very confused about the correct way to run various types of cables/wires to a load center. To clarify:

- This is a surface mount load center
- It is mounted in an unfinished basement, in compliance with the NEC 6 ft rule.

With that in mind, how do you route NM cable from the ceiling cavity into the panel? To clarify further:

- Can the NM cable, as is, be stapled on the plywood within 12” of the load center but be unprotected?
- Can the NM cable sleeved via schedule 40 PVC, or liquid tight non metallic conduit, or EMT assuming 60% conduit fill requirement is met?
- Given the NEC rule which prohibits sleeving of conduit less than 18” length, how can you sleeve the cables if there isnt 18” of available space? My house is old and the ceiling is 88 inches high. There are other obstacles such as natural gas lines or radon pipes which makes it not possible to have 18” or more conduit.

Lastly, what happens if the cables are not routed to the top of the panel but rather being routed to the knock outs on the side of the panel? All these rules in NEC have clauses that limit them to the “top” of a surface mount panel. There is nothing about side.

For example, say I want to run a 6-3 NM cable to my panel and there are no KOs available at the top. I have to run the cable the entire length of the panel and use one of the KOs at the bottom. Does that run have to be sleeved in conduit?

But hang on, NEC considers schedule 40 pvc, liquid tight non metallic conduit all NOT allowed to be subject to physical damage, so does that mean these conduits are no go and it must be EMT? then why would anyone want to use those as form of conduit?

It looks like as stupid as this might sound, NEC considers NM cable and PVC and liquid tight all equal as far as protection. So you have no choice but to use EMT? But even with EMT, you hit this 18” rule which makes even that impossible.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Can the NM cable, as is, be stapled on the plywood within 12” of the load center but be unprotected?

Yes. But I do believe the plywood backer needs to run up to the top plate.

I have not seen this before (IANAE), but this guy nailed a long narrow piece plywood to the bottom of the floor joist and then used cable "hangers" to run the wire.

Lastly, what happens if the cables are not routed to the top of the panel but rather being routed to the knock outs on the side of the panel?

If there is a KO there, use it !

 

[Terry D]

What 5 ft rule are you talking about.

At least around here, we just take the cables from the floor joist cavity straight in the panel, no sleeving. I have heard from someone on here that the codes in his area does not allow and exposed romex at all in a unfinished basement. Check your local codes.

They make romex connectors that are rated for 2 wires. You can get mor wire un the top of the panel that way.

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[pattenp]

Can you point to the NEC requirement that a sleeve be no shorter than 18"? I must have missed that one. Plus sleeves are not subject to any set fill requirement.

Also the protection requirement are somewhat open ended to interpretation. Such as NM requires protection where necessary. Key word "necessary".

Edit: It just dawned on me you are referring about the length of a raceway connected to the panel as having a minimum 18" length. That's not considered as a sleeve.

 

[DerStig]

What 5 ft rule are you talking about.

At least around here, we just take the cables from the floor joist cavity straight in the panel, no sleeving. I have heard from someone on here that the codes in his area does not allow and exposed romex at all in a unfinished basement. Check your local codes.

They make romex connectors that are rated for 2 wires. You can get mor wire un the top of the panel that way.

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On one hand you are saying “we take cables straight to panel no sleeving” then you are saying “we are not allowed exposed NM in unfinished basement”. The two statements contradict each other.

There is no 5 ft rule, there is a 6 ft rule which deals with the top most breaker in a load center to be no more than 6 ft 7 inches above the ground.

 

[DerStig]

Can you point to the NEC requirement that a sleeve be no shorter than 18"? I must have missed that one. Plus sleeves are not subject to any set fill requirement.

Also the protection requirement are somewhat open ended to interpretation. Such as NM requires protection where necessary. Key word "necessary".

Sure - 312.5 (C)

312.5 Cabinets, Cutout Boxes, and Meter Socket Enclosures. Conductors entering enclosures within the scope of this article shall be protected from abrasion and shall comply with 312.5(A) through (C).

(C) Cables. Where cable is used, each cable shall be secured to the cabinet, cutout box, or meter socket enclosure. Exception: Cables with entirely nonmetallic sheaths shall be permitted to enter the top of a surface-mounted enclosure through one or more nonflexible raceways not less than 450 mm (18 in.) and not more than 3.0 m (10 ft) in length, provided all of the following conditions are met:

(a) Each cable is fastened within 300 mm (12 in.), measured along the sheath, of the outer end of the raceway

(b) The raceway extends directly above the enclosure and does not penetrate a structural ceiling.

(c) A fitting is provided on each end of the raceway to protect the cable(s) from abrasion and the fittings remain accessible after installation.

(d) The raceway is sealed or plugged at the outer end using approved means so as to prevent access to the enclosure through the raceway.

(e) The cable sheath is continuous through the raceway and extends into the enclosure beyond the fitting not less than 6 mm (1⁄4 in.).

(f) The raceway is fastened at its outer end and at other points in accordance with the applicable article.

(g) Where installed as conduit or tubing, the cable fill does not exceed the amount that would be permitted for complete conduit or tubing systems by Table 1 of Chapter 9 of this Code and all applicable notes thereto. Informational Note: See Table 1 in Chapter 9, including Note 9, for allowable cable fill in circular raceways. See 310.15(B)(3)(a) for required ampacity reductions for multiple cables installed in a common raceway.

 

[pattenp]

I guess you missed my edit in my post. My connection was slow to post the edit.

 

[DerStig]

I guess you missed my edit in my post. My connection was slow to post the edit.

Sorry I did not see it yes. But now that I have, I am even more confused. What is considered a sleeve then? For my purposes of protecting the NM cable, is that a sleeve?

 

[ycgoat]

So the exception in 310.5 allows multiple NM cables to enter through a conduit but this is not a requirement as long as you enter the panel correctly


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[ycgoat]

I do not see anything prohibiting entering the side, bottom, or even back of the enclosure as long as the bending radius is not exceeded.


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[Terry D]

On one hand you are saying “we take cables straight to panel no sleeving” then you are saying “we are not allowed exposed NM in unfinished basement”. The two statements contradict each other.

There is no 5 ft rule, there is a 6 ft rule which deals with the top most breaker in a load center to be no more than 6 ft 7 inches above the ground.

I meant 6 ft, typo. Im saying in my area, we dont have to protect the romex going through the joists and going down in the panel. Its all exposed. It was mentioned on another thread that in some areas, no exposed romex is allowed at all in a unfinished basement. You need to check your local codes first

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[ycgoat]

If you are concerned the cables are exposed to physical damage you can cover the chase with dry wall or plywood.


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[pattenp]

A sleeve is a section of conduit that is not connected to an enclosure/box on either end. The section of conduit just needs bushings on both ends to prevent chaffing of the cable jacket.

 

[Ilikeike]

A sleeve is a section of conduit that is not connected to an enclosure/box on either end. The section of conduit just needs bushings on both ends to prevent chaffing of the cable jacket.

That's how I see them go through firewalls aslo, just a chase ****** or sleeve with bushings on the ends.

 

[DerStig]

Why would anyone put a cable through a conduit only to leave both ends not connected to any enclosure?

I’m going to take a few pictures later today to show what my panel looks like. One thing thats important to mention is, no one flagged anything here this is me being OCD and trying to make my panel look neat.

Although that doesnt mean there are no code violations here. I am basically being proactive.

 

[ycgoat]

There are practical reasons to use sleeves and its not just for NM cable, but you should not have worry about sleeves in a normal stick frame house.


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[Terry D]

I don't believe Article 312 refers to load centers. It is for CT cabinets, Utility cutout boxes and meter enclosures. If you are talking about putting conduit stub ups on top of your panel extended up in the joist cavity, I don't think there is a minimum length. They would be connected to the panel with the proper fitting and be open on the top with a bushing if needed

 

[sberry]

I always put a place or means above or beside the box to staple. Sometimes I tack a couple 3 staples up before inspections and laying on a table next to it is a box of staples, a bag of connectors and a couple gfci. Its simply psychological.

 

[u2slow]

Why would anyone put a cable through a conduit only to leave both ends not connected to any enclosure?

That's what makes it a 'sleeve'... so that you're allowed to run NM cable through it. Connect the conduit to boxes, and pull in individual conductors; not cable.

In my area, metallic sleeves aren't common, because they need to be bonded/grounded too. (i.e. connect an EGC). Wooden or framed/drywall chases are more the norm.

 

[sberry]

I did one a while back, I over did it in GJ fashion but it made it so it couldn't be overloaded. It didn't take any more cable runs cause I used 3 conductor but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, they had left a couple 3/4 up to the attic. 2 200 panels where 1 would have done, poorly wired kitchen, panels flush on an outside wall.
The pipes were helpful, this whole thing was a ********, very tall building, needed to be done and needed to be economical. I could have saved a little drywall, some routing in hindsight by changing the route. As relatively normal it looked nice, worked great,,, but could have been done differently in hindsight. Would have brought a little more drywall work down to ground level, someone else did it so its not a deal.
The sleeves were better than nothing, the whole thing was cable. I used multi wire, I would do it in a couple less maybe next time but there was a lot of stuff, pipe fill was a factor, they bought 10 of these cooking trays and 1440 watts a piece, had coffee pots and **** all over the building trying to find different circuits, a whole box of cords and 3 ways, trip breakers and dam near forgot a hot for a week.
It was a terrible location terrible attic, most of the real work up there and I did commit the sin of stripping jacket and passing thru a jbox, I understand not sposed to do it but the alternatives were a bigger sin. I grounded there and taped the hots together as a pair and pushed them each circuit. I wasn't going to cut splice all that **** in a terrible location, I don't stock rolls of solid.
Even using power strips cant overload any, there are enough available and no 3 ways in the place cant be done. I used 2 poles, might confuse a handyman a little but the upside is they cant trip it. Never need to modify for more.
Moral of the story,,,,, it certainly is a good idea of some means to get new wire to the panel and common surface installations in drywall are absolutely dumb and been done for decades. My neighbor had 9 ft and only thing goes overhead was lights, put a foot strip of finished plywood sideways and one over the panel vert to the ceiling.
Only changes he made were to outlets local to the panel,,, but its there.
I was in another the guy needed a welder outlet, says, I only got 110 in the garage. Wants to run a cord from a dryer in the basement, turns out there is a 100A panel 20 spaces, 1 used in the garage, local was easy but it was a nice place, went to the trouble then put in **** and drywalled it all up.
With plastic pipe should plug it with some duct seal if you do this.