I had a porcelain tile floor installed a year ago. 13x13 diagonal. I have noticed recently several bigger and small cracks in the grout where it is like breaking away from the tile. I spoke with someone who told me this should happen maybe in 1 or 2 places in a 10 year old floor but not in a 1 year old floor. I called the installer. They sent someone from service out and the service manager. The service guy said he wanted to wait to talk to the installer's before sticking his foot in his mouth but that I had good reason to have issue. The service manager calls me today and tells me that her service guy said only 10% of my floor is affected (I disagree) and the solution is to regrout with fusion grout? I've spoke with a few other ppl who have told me that this is most likely due to improper installation and that they can regrout it but it's like to just keep cracking. Any thoughts?
Cracked Grout
- Thread starter mac40
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JRC3
Well-known member
Slab or subfloor?
If it's a subfloor too many installers are just nailing the backer board down with a roof nailer and that is all. It is fine to nail but their should be a layer of thinset between the subfloor and backer board. I see it all the time. The problem is only going to get worse as the nails back out and the backer board gets loose. I've also seen too many people use screws but not enough screws as they are time consuming and get pretty manual especially larger jobs.
If it's a subfloor too many installers are just nailing the backer board down with a roof nailer and that is all. It is fine to nail but their should be a layer of thinset between the subfloor and backer board. I see it all the time. The problem is only going to get worse as the nails back out and the backer board gets loose. I've also seen too many people use screws but not enough screws as they are time consuming and get pretty manual especially larger jobs.
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i agree. see this too often.
kd3pc
Well-known member
mac
it is improper installation of the sub floor/backerboard. The grout is the last thing to be installed and the first to show - poor prep.
The only long term solution is to rip it up and make sure the sub floor is tight and that the backerboard is installed with the correct materials and is screwed adequately. Here is the issue, most installers are not going to spend the time and money on materials......when they can get by with NOT doing it.
Best of luck.
it is improper installation of the sub floor/backerboard. The grout is the last thing to be installed and the first to show - poor prep.
The only long term solution is to rip it up and make sure the sub floor is tight and that the backerboard is installed with the correct materials and is screwed adequately. Here is the issue, most installers are not going to spend the time and money on materials......when they can get by with NOT doing it.
Best of luck.
duneslider
Well-known member
It is either a subfloor/floor system that is inadequate for a tile installation, or poor prep/installation. It is easy to just say it is installer error. Partly because either way it is installer error. If your floor is inadequate to support a tile installation the installer should have known this and told you but you probably wouldn't have believed him anyway.
I would be interested in more details of the house structure, the floor framing, subfloor type, etc. I would also be interested in the method of tile installation.
Without all the details it is hard to really point fingers.
Tearing out all the grout and using fusion epoxy grout would solve the cracking problem but you may end up with tiles coming up in the future.
I would be interested in more details of the house structure, the floor framing, subfloor type, etc. I would also be interested in the method of tile installation.
Without all the details it is hard to really point fingers.
Tearing out all the grout and using fusion epoxy grout would solve the cracking problem but you may end up with tiles coming up in the future.
ddurrett896
Well-known member
Bottom line is the substrate wasn't laid correctly. Anything they do, aside from ripping up the tile and substrate, will continue to have problems.
Thanks everyone! It's a 13 year old home. Before we moved in 5 years ago we hired this company to come and lay a brazillian cherry floor in the entire downstairs. We had something break in our dishwasher and got what damage 5 years later so we used them again. This time to rip out the hw in the entry and kitchen and install the porcelain tile. They told me they used a 3/8 thin set with Ditra (if this makes sense to you, I know nothing about any of this). So do I have any right to ask them for either a my money back or b they reinstall the floor? We paid 11,000 for the floor plus 5000 for a heated floor underneath in the kitchen. I don't want to just let this go.
kd3pc
Well-known member
1 year old floor that is failing like this.....you have every right to have it replaced or money back...now add the price and the heat.... I would ask them once...and then be prepared to find an attorney. $15K for a floor...is reason enough to stay on them daily, until a correction is made - and one with a warranty.
ditra is a surface to help keep the integrity of the floor in place. It still has to be correctly installed and in the case of heat, use their heat wiring and products, again - installed correctly.
Best of luck
ditra is a surface to help keep the integrity of the floor in place. It still has to be correctly installed and in the case of heat, use their heat wiring and products, again - installed correctly.
Best of luck
JRC3
Well-known member
Not sure about Ditra, I was gonna mention that earlier but figured that it was probably a more tried and true method of install. I researched the floating systems before and figured to myself that it didn't look stable enough and soon dismissed it. Looks like I may have been correct to do so.
Ditra:
We all know how bouncy 24" spaced I joists are.
In my mind I just don't see how that system can hold up. In the old days, before modern post-war building, floors had a 2-3" mortar bed. We've since gone to backer board and now a piece of rolled down plastic???
To take it further I see they make a similar type system for a shower base and shower walls. When you know how a proper shower pan works you see the problem. I still see old lead liners holding up today when I tear them out. To me a tile job should be able to last at east 50 years.
Don't get me started on that red paint-on liner...
Can someone tell more about that Fusion grout?
Ditra:
We all know how bouncy 24" spaced I joists are.
In my mind I just don't see how that system can hold up. In the old days, before modern post-war building, floors had a 2-3" mortar bed. We've since gone to backer board and now a piece of rolled down plastic???
To take it further I see they make a similar type system for a shower base and shower walls. When you know how a proper shower pan works you see the problem. I still see old lead liners holding up today when I tear them out. To me a tile job should be able to last at east 50 years.
Don't get me started on that red paint-on liner...
Can someone tell more about that Fusion grout?
duneslider
Well-known member
The problem is not the Ditra, I would take Ditra over any other type method out there other than a full mortar bed but those are not common today.
You need to go deeper to find the problem. I would be interested to know the size and spacing of your floor joists and the unsupported length of the joists. The deflection standard for ceramic/porcelain flooring is L/360 (stone is L/720). This is especially difficult to calculate if you have engineered floor joists and in fact you are just better off calling the manufacturer and asking their engineer what your particular floor is rated for. If the framing is all dimensional lumber you can look up the tables yourself and figure it out if you are good at math. Most house floors today are built to L/360 but it isn't uncommon to see them built at L/280, which wouldn't not be sufficient for a tile floor.
I have no where near enough info to even begin to say whether you have a case to get money back or not. Or if that is even the true problem here. Still haven't seen pictures of the problem.
It is possible that they just mixed the grout too wet and you have weak grout, I have seen this a lot. It is possible the grout was bad, not common but possible. Its possible they(you) turned on the floor heat before the grout cured and that caused the grout to be weak.
I will say that you will have to provide the burden of proof in court to prove that the failure is THEIR fault. You will need an EXPERT evaluation of the floor. I know a good guy who does this for a living if you are interested but it isn't a free service.
I would love to see/have more details of your particular situation to see if we can come up with a cause for the issue.
You need to go deeper to find the problem. I would be interested to know the size and spacing of your floor joists and the unsupported length of the joists. The deflection standard for ceramic/porcelain flooring is L/360 (stone is L/720). This is especially difficult to calculate if you have engineered floor joists and in fact you are just better off calling the manufacturer and asking their engineer what your particular floor is rated for. If the framing is all dimensional lumber you can look up the tables yourself and figure it out if you are good at math. Most house floors today are built to L/360 but it isn't uncommon to see them built at L/280, which wouldn't not be sufficient for a tile floor.
I have no where near enough info to even begin to say whether you have a case to get money back or not. Or if that is even the true problem here. Still haven't seen pictures of the problem.
It is possible that they just mixed the grout too wet and you have weak grout, I have seen this a lot. It is possible the grout was bad, not common but possible. Its possible they(you) turned on the floor heat before the grout cured and that caused the grout to be weak.
I will say that you will have to provide the burden of proof in court to prove that the failure is THEIR fault. You will need an EXPERT evaluation of the floor. I know a good guy who does this for a living if you are interested but it isn't a free service.
I would love to see/have more details of your particular situation to see if we can come up with a cause for the issue.
duneslider
Well-known member
Don't want to derail the OP's thread but what do you want to know?
JRC3
Well-known member
I've/have multiple customers whose new home's subs installed the backer board improperly and am curious if the Fusion will help fix or fix long enough for them to kinda pas the buck.
Same with bad tile guys who allowed backer board and grout joints to fall right over each other...Layout is everything second to a good substrate. Layout for aesthetics and symmetry is next.
duneslider
Well-known member
Any of the grouts that are more flexible will hold up better if there is flex in the floor. Is it a suitable fix, I don't think so. It is just putting lipstick on a pig. It may or may not work but if it doesn't you have now spent more money trying to hide the real problem. You would be better off just getting some color matched caulk and smearing it over the areas, that would cost less, hide the cracks and still be a hack job. Removing grout is not an easy or fun adventure, I charged dearly for that task.
A tile joint over the top of a backerboard joint isn't a problem, if you are taping the joints like you should. If the joints are taped per manufacturers recommendations then yes it is a problem but that isn't your only problem. Most manufacturers don't want the plywood joints to line up with the backer board joints though and you shouldn't have 4 corners touching. Its kind of like saying you shouldn't paint over joints in drywall cause they will crack the paint, sure that is true if you didn't tape the joints but if the joints are taped it is one continuous plane and cracks don't happen unless there is some major disruption.
Got 8" X 40" tiles installed on my second floor. My contractor went tried and true old skewl with it (wooden subfloor).
First thing that was to make sure the existing subfloor was up to snuff (was built on 2013, California codes require a Minimum Deflection limit of L/360 which is sufficient for tiles), they put some more screws just to make sure.. Next was to install some "Fortifiber Aquabar B" moisture barrier, then steel - diamond mesh lath (stapled to the wooden subfloor, my assumption is that the wire mesh acts like rebars in concrete and gives the SLC better support). They then poured in some Self Leveling Underlayment (Mapei Novoplan 2) 1/2" thick. After letter the SLC cure for a day and ahlf, they applied some (NAC TAC II) primer, then stuck on Anti-Fracture Membrane (NAC ECB 75). They then installed the tiles ontop the Anti-Fracture membrane using a modified thinset (Mapie UltraFlex 2). Last step will be applying Bostik Urethane grout..
Find a good contractor would be my guess, got three quotes and all three were pretty much the same in price. First one wanted to use the procedure above, the second one wanted to use the hardibacker board procedure, and the third wanted to use Ditra. Considering the tiles I bought are quite lengthy, a flatter base made sense.
I'm thinking, the hardibacker board, and the Ditra follows the contours of the existing plywood subfloor, so the SLC stuff most likely gave me a better base.
First thing that was to make sure the existing subfloor was up to snuff (was built on 2013, California codes require a Minimum Deflection limit of L/360 which is sufficient for tiles), they put some more screws just to make sure.. Next was to install some "Fortifiber Aquabar B" moisture barrier, then steel - diamond mesh lath (stapled to the wooden subfloor, my assumption is that the wire mesh acts like rebars in concrete and gives the SLC better support). They then poured in some Self Leveling Underlayment (Mapei Novoplan 2) 1/2" thick. After letter the SLC cure for a day and ahlf, they applied some (NAC TAC II) primer, then stuck on Anti-Fracture Membrane (NAC ECB 75). They then installed the tiles ontop the Anti-Fracture membrane using a modified thinset (Mapie UltraFlex 2). Last step will be applying Bostik Urethane grout..
Find a good contractor would be my guess, got three quotes and all three were pretty much the same in price. First one wanted to use the procedure above, the second one wanted to use the hardibacker board procedure, and the third wanted to use Ditra. Considering the tiles I bought are quite lengthy, a flatter base made sense.
I'm thinking, the hardibacker board, and the Ditra follows the contours of the existing plywood subfloor, so the SLC stuff most likely gave me a better base.
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duneslider
Well-known member
Might want to check out Novoplan 2's installation instructions, particularly the surface preparation section. I don't think the method your contractor used is an approved method. I haven't used Novoplan much but I am pretty certain it requires a primer be used so it bonds to the wood subfloor. By putting the aqua bar down the SLC has nothing to bond to. The wire is sort of holding it together but that won''t give it enough structural strength to last. I could be wrong on this but if it were me I would call Mapei's technical support and see what they think about the work that has been done.
On the bright side, I always found these sort of installations a money maker when I was tearing them out because came up so easy!
Again, don't take my word for it, give Mapei a call and see what they say. SLC isn't something that I used everyday, I just seem to remember ALWAYS needing a primer.
SLC and anti-fracture membranes are exactly old-skewl either. That is all pretty "new" technology.
From the pics I took, the Novoplan isn't touching the wooden subfloor directly, I guess the Fortifiber acts like a tub and the diamond mesh lath (wire mesh) for strength (not sure if they put in any primer ontop the fortifiber before pouring in SLC). I'm in earthquake prone part of the country (Northern California), crossing my fingers this procedure works - I checked out his other work (second floor tiles), some of them are 5+ years going with no issues.
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duneslider
Well-known member
If you feel good about it
Pretty sure it isn't an approved method but if I was spending that much money I would certainly want to make sure the manufacturer approved of the method and a call to tech support can't take more than a few minutes...Like I said, I have never seen it done that way and it seems a little off to me. I guess I just like more assurance than crossed fingers.
so many people quick to blame installation. we will never know all of the details and steps put in place during installation but here are some things i can pass on.
if the grout is solid and it has seperated from one side of the tile or the other, something has settled. what it is we dont know, but grout doesnt stretch.
if its very powdery and just starting to dust off, then it was either bad grout or mixed too wet.
bad grout or grout mixed very wet will not crack unless their is settling with either the subfloor or the substrate put down before the tile. all precations can be taken. standard grout can and will crack if their is any settling issues wheather installation issue or otherwise.
i do new homes daily and cracked concrete slabs is the #1 cause of grout cracking. grind it out, fill it in. you cant replace a whole job because the foundation has settled.
we use tec power grout for a lot of custom applications to avoid issues. sometimes crack suppressent isnt 100%.
are the tiles hollow where the grout is cracking?
if the grout is solid and it has seperated from one side of the tile or the other, something has settled. what it is we dont know, but grout doesnt stretch.
if its very powdery and just starting to dust off, then it was either bad grout or mixed too wet.
bad grout or grout mixed very wet will not crack unless their is settling with either the subfloor or the substrate put down before the tile. all precations can be taken. standard grout can and will crack if their is any settling issues wheather installation issue or otherwise.
i do new homes daily and cracked concrete slabs is the #1 cause of grout cracking. grind it out, fill it in. you cant replace a whole job because the foundation has settled.
we use tec power grout for a lot of custom applications to avoid issues. sometimes crack suppressent isnt 100%.
are the tiles hollow where the grout is cracking?
If you feel good about it
Like I said, I have never seen it done that way and it seems a little off to me. I guess I just like more assurance than crossed fingers.
I'll contact Mapei tomorrow, I did contact Fortifiber and they sent me some PDF's. Looks like it's common / unbonded procedure for wooden sub floors and tiles.
Tile
Modified Thinset
Mortar Bed (SLC)
Diamond Mesh Lath
AquaBar B
Plywood
Mine was slightly different (below).
Tile
Modified Thinset
Anti Fracture Membrane
Primer
Mortar Bed (SLC)
Diamond Mesh Lath
AquaBar B
Plywood
Contractor said it was overkill.
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duneslider
Well-known member
I don't have the latest code and a couple of those referenced are newer than the latest one I have (2008). In the picture F141- requires a full mortar bed which is 1.25-2" thick. and F145-requires a minimum 3/4" mortar bed. At 1/2" it appears you are a bit shy. Its hard to say if that is okay or not, I would still consult mapei. Typically, mortar beds are not SLC and I don't know if that is a good thing or a bad thing. What you do have is a bit of a frankensystem going. I always tried to keep to one manufacturer's system so I could lean on them if there were ever a "warranty" situation.
The problem I see here is that the aqua bar is a cleavage membrane, so the point of that is to isolate the mortar from the substrate. So the lath was stapled down and the slc was poured over it essentially "floating" over the substrate. The reason for requiring the 3/4" thickness is to give the mortar bed enough strength to hold together (the wire helps this too). Someone smarter than I determined through testing that 3/4" is the magic number. Honestly, I just don't see the need for the whole aqua bar, lath, and slc. You could have just had the crack isolation membrane and been good to go and saved a bunch (SLC is expensive). And you would just have one company to deal with if a warranty came up.
RH141 is a radiant heat spec so that doesn't apply here.
Just remember that once the contractor is done, gone, and paid. Your chances of getting anything back goes down exponentially if anything does go wrong.
The problem I see here is that the aqua bar is a cleavage membrane, so the point of that is to isolate the mortar from the substrate. So the lath was stapled down and the slc was poured over it essentially "floating" over the substrate. The reason for requiring the 3/4" thickness is to give the mortar bed enough strength to hold together (the wire helps this too). Someone smarter than I determined through testing that 3/4" is the magic number. Honestly, I just don't see the need for the whole aqua bar, lath, and slc. You could have just had the crack isolation membrane and been good to go and saved a bunch (SLC is expensive). And you would just have one company to deal with if a warranty came up.
RH141 is a radiant heat spec so that doesn't apply here.
Just remember that once the contractor is done, gone, and paid. Your chances of getting anything back goes down exponentially if anything does go wrong.