Craftman 33gal problems.... been reading a lot

[fox_forma]

Well first I am glad I found these boards and there is a ton of usefull info all over. My main reason for stumbling across this forum is because of my craftsman 2hp 33gal compressor. I have been reading all the posts with people generally having the same issues as I am, however there is a small difference between the others and mine.

It seems most of the other peoples problems are the tank will fill then it will trip the breaker upon start up again. My problem is my tank will start up fine but trip the breaker once it reaches about 90psi. It cant fully fill up. I'm assuming there is more stress on the motor as the pressure increases in the tank?

On top of this, my house isn't to old but its old enough where my garage outlet isn't on a dedicated circuit. It is tied into the outside outlet, and the upstairs bathrooms as well. My next choice is to run a dedicated line, which I would have no problem doing, but the layout of my house makes it almost impossible to do it easily. The box is in the far corner of my basement and my garage is on the complete opposite side. Now that wouldn't be to bad except my basement only goes about half way across under my house (no crawl space either) and under the other side of my house is basically a concrete slab. I have an attic but then again, that doesn't go all the way over to my garage either. Last option is a PVC run underground but once again, I have a deck out back, no way to get around or under that easily and out front we have our walkway.

This compressor is brand new, I haven't even been able to really use it cause of this problem. The breaker it is on now is a 15amp and I believe its 14g wire. Do I have any other options to actually make it so a compressor is able to be used in my garage?

 

[Junkman]

Outside and bathroom circuits are supposed to be on ground fault interruption circuits, so you have one more additional problem that you were not aware of. It needs to be changed to a GFI breaker........ failure to do so, could cost you a loved ones life.

 

[TNToy]

Outside and bathroom circuits are supposed to be on ground fault interruption circuits, so you have one more additional problem that you were not aware of. It needs to be changed to a GFI breaker........ failure to do so, could cost you a loved ones life.

Eventually you're going to learn that building codes elsewhere (especially in the south) are a good bit more lax than you're used to.

I know that when I think about the homes my parents have had in suburban Chicago, and their current one in NH... it almost makes me cry to see the standards homes are (not) held to down here.

I don't have a single GFI outlet, and you've already seen the nightmare I call a main panel.

They only started spec'ing GFI down here in the late 90's, I believe. Even now, I see virtually zero homes around here that have it.

 

[Deafautotech]

i had one 33gal and 5 hp oilless and always break breaker fuse when motor stop running at 110psi because that breaker have using by inside of house as computer, lights, other computer. so i had to shut down all computers and turn off lights and printer. then compressor will run and stop and run again when psi go below of specific. so i have problem with breaker and think about have electrican man to upgrade breaker from 120V to 220V....... not sure about it.

 

[Junkman]

I never said that it was mandatory, but why wouldn't anyone want to protect their family with a device that costs so little, and does so much. I am not talking about a service upgrade, but a single circuit breaker replacement. Today, they have arc fault breakers, however, the need for them in my home is minimal, so I wouldn't even consider them. When I installed the jetted bathtub about 14 years ago, the GFI wasn't required, since it was a 220 volt circuit. I installed one even though I didn't have to. I would hate to be in that tub when the motor short circuited, so $60 was a cheap investment even though the code didn't require it. If anyone chooses to forgo any safety item, that is their choice in life. Just like smoking has been proven to cause lung cancer, but some people still choose to start smoking. There are lots of choices in life. You just hope that you make the right ones to live to a ripe old age....

 

[fox_forma]

Outside and bathroom circuits are supposed to be on ground fault interruption circuits, so you have one more additional problem that you were not aware of. It needs to be changed to a GFI breaker........ failure to do so, could cost you a loved ones life.

Since I don't know much about electrical stuff, the breaker that is for this circuit in the basement has a TEST button on it. If you press it trips the breaker automatically then you need to reset it. I'm guessing thats the GFI breaker? I know some of the newer houses have the actual tester at the outlet as well.

I remember about a year ago I had to use my neighbors compressor to fill up my truck tire after a screw cause a slow leak and I didn't have any problems then so I didn't think it was a problem. I don't know what kind he had though and they have since moved.

As for the other circuits as well, the bathroom outlets dont have anything plugged in anyhow, maybe at times during the day something will get plugged in but at any other time nothing is in use. Its only the outlets that run on this breaker as well, the lights still work.

Thanks so far guys

 

[wilbilt]

Yes, that's a GFCI breaker. Your outside, bathroom, and garage are all apparently running on that breaker.

GFIs are more susceptible to "nuisance tripping". It would be good to put the compressor on it's own circuit if possible.

 

[fox_forma]

Yes, that's a GFCI breaker. Your outside, bathroom, and garage are all apparently running on that breaker.

GFIs are more susceptible to "nuisance tripping". It would be good to put the compressor on it's own circuit if possible.

My buddy said the same thing about it nuisance tripping. I would love to run a dedicated line just for the compressor. That way I could run a few extra lines just in case I need to hook up something else but with my situation it is just a huge project to do. And with it being winter the ground is frozen so that makes matters worse unfortunately. What exactly is a nuisance trip anyway? Could it be just that type of breaker brand or anything, I'm sure almost every breaker in the box is 15-20yrs old now

 

[bmwpower]

You're going to have to run another circuit. Check the nameplate on the motor... that motor more than likely is pulling 15A - too much for that circuit. It's no wonder it's tripping. I had to not only run my 33 gallon Craftsman on a dedicated 20A circuit, but I had to up the breaker to 30A since it was STILL tripping.

Roll the thing in the basement and run a test 20 A circuit. See how it operates.

 

[wilbilt]

Someone else could probably explain GFI operation better than me, but they basically shut off the circuit if there is any current leakage to ground (a "ground fault") in the connected appliance or equipment.

The fault current required to trip the GFI is very small, and the GFI trips almost instantaneously (to avoid anyone getting zapped). Loads that draw a lot of continuous current seem to cause the GFI to see some fault current, hence the trip.

A normal breaker tends to be more lenient toward high current, and acts like a slow-blow fuse. It will allow high current for a certain amount of time before tripping.

It could be that the GFI breaker is old, but I wouldn't be surprised if you still had similar problems after replacing it. If it was me, I would find a way to put the compressor on a dedicated 20A circuit, or at least get it off the GFI.

Are there any other circuits running in the walls nearby?

 

[fox_forma]

BMWPOWER: How exactly would I run a test with the compressor downstairs in the basement on a 20A breaker?

WIlbilt: No there really isn't any other circuits nearby that would work for this situation. I guess I will have to get up in the garage attic and try to see where everything is going to. Hopefully I can map out a route for a new line but I doubt that will happen.

The compressor does pull 15amps I guess. I just find it odd that some people have no issues with this same compressor and others have the exact issue myself and many others have complained about. I doubt every single person who uses this compressor has a dedicated line ran with a 20-30amp breaker on it. According to the manual a 120v 15amp line should be fine so I'm stumped. Maybe I need to look at a different compressor that doesn't require as much voltage/amps or whatever it is popping the breaker.

Also I tried to hook up the compressor through a serge protector. I guess thats what its considered but that has a 15amp default breaker type thing inside of it. Why doesn't that shut down before the breaker in the basement? Is that GFI that easy to trip

 

[wilbilt]

A GFI breaker can trip two ways. One way is due to overcurrent, just like a regular breaker. When that happens, you have to reset the breaker handle to restore power.

If the GFCI itself trips due to a ground fault (or a supposed one), it shuts off and you have to push the "reset" button. This trip has nothing to do with amperage draw. I assume this is what's happening in your case.

 

[fox_forma]

oh ok, all i have to do is flip the breaker back over when it trips and I'm not hitting the reset button so that rules out ground fault. Got ya

Shouldnt the 15amp trip in the surge protector as well?

 

[wilbilt]

I would think so. Maybe the breaker is weak.

It would be interesting to know how much current the compressor is drawing when the breaker trips.

 

[bmwpower]

BMWPOWER: How exactly would I run a test with the compressor downstairs in the basement on a 20A breaker?

If you're not sure a new circuit is going to fix things...

You'd need to install a temp receptacle box, run #12 romex from the panel to the new box, yada yada. Then install a new 20A breaker and hook everything up...basically install everything just like you were running a new circuit.

Although this won't be the exact same thing as running a 20A circuit out to the garage, it should give you an idea of how it will run.

I think you will find you're going to need to run a new circuit.

 

[fox_forma]

I would think so. Maybe the breaker is weak.

It would be interesting to know how much current the compressor is drawing when the breaker trips.

is there a way to test this somehow? I just thought it was odd that the compressor would run up to about 90psi in the tank then the breaker would trip. It seems majority of people tripping the breaker was upon start-up with this same unit and I don't have that issue as far as I can tell since I can never complete a full cycle

 

[wilbilt]

If you can borrow a clamp-on ammeter, you can watch the current as it's running.

The current will rise as the air pressure builds up and the load increases on the motor. It should max out just about the time the compressor shuts off.

 

[fox_forma]

thanks i will look into ASAP and see if I can get some info on whats going on. I take it you couldn't use a DMM for this task?

 

[wilbilt]

thanks i will look into ASAP and see if I can get some info on whats going on. I take it you couldn't use a DMM for this task?

If the meter can measure AC current in the 20-30 amp range, it could be inserted inline to measure the current. It's easier (and less change of getting zapped) to use a clamp-on.

Also keep in mind all of the current will be passing through the meter. Although most meters are fused, there is a chance it would go up in smoke if the current surges (like when the motor starts). I don't think I'd try it with my Fluke 23.

 

[bobbyd]

I had to not only run my 33 gallon Craftsman on a dedicated 20A circuit, but I had to up the breaker to 30A since it was STILL tripping.

What size wire are you using for the dedicated compressor circuit? You did up the wire size when you swapped out for the 30A breaker, right? If you were popping the 20A breaker one of two things was happening. A) you had a weak breaker or B) you were indeed pulling more than 20A. I've seen the posts of your garage so I know it's new and would probably rule out the weak breaker. This leaves a likely problem of greater than 20A current draw. Although intermittent, you run the risk of overloading the wire if it is still the original 12ga required by the 20A circuit.

Now, I too have a 33gal oilless Craftsman compressor on a dedicated 20A circuit. However, I have never tripped the breaker either during operation or motor start. For those that are having problems during start-up, check the shutdown pressure relief valve on the compressor. If not operating properly, the compressor experiences a high compression force on start putting unnecessary strain (and current draw) on the motor.

One last thing to consider Fox, how far is it from the receptacle you are using to the panel it is fed from. Without getting to deep into electrical circuit theroy (of which I know little anyway), you will experience voltage drop as the run gets longer. As voltage drops, the current required increases. As the pressure in your tank builds the required power to turn the compressor increases (obvious I know). Once you get to 90psi the power required by the motor in conjunction with low voltage due to long runs may be pushing your current draw beyond the limit of the breaker and even beyond the starting current of the motor, hence the reason your breaker trips at 90psi rather than at start up as some others do.

Long winded I know.

 

[bmwpower]

What size wire are you using for the dedicated compressor circuit? You did up the wire size when you swapped out for the 30A breaker, right? If you were popping the 20A breaker one of two things was happening. A) you had a weak breaker or B) you were indeed pulling more than 20A. I've seen the posts of your garage so I know it's new and would probably rule out the weak breaker. This leaves a likely problem of greater than 20A current draw. Although intermittent, you run the risk of overloading the wire if it is still the original 12ga required by the 20A circuit.

Now, I too have a 33gal oilless Craftsman compressor on a dedicated 20A circuit. However, I have never tripped the breaker either during operation or motor start. For those that are having problems during start-up, check the shutdown pressure relief valve on the compressor. If not operating properly, the compressor experiences a high compression force on start putting unnecessary strain (and current draw) on the motor.

I'm using #12 Romex. Breaker was new. You don't need to up the wire size for a dedicated motor circuit. You're allowed to up the breaker per code to avoid nuisance tripping.

Do you know how to check the relief valve? My compressor bleeds off air as it shuts down from hitting the set pressure, so I'm not sure if this is the problem or not.

 

[toolman]

Fox-forma gfci’s are also known to trip under a surge (load). It only needs to see a 5ma difference on neutral side to trip. First make sure you have nothing else running at the same time on that circuit. Before running a new circuit I would disconnect the gfci breaker in the main panel and install a regular breaker and test to see if it still trips. If it doesn’t leave the regular breaker in and install separate gfci plugs in your bathroom, outside, etc.

 

[fox_forma]

Fox-forma gfci’s are also known to trip under a surge (load). It only needs to see a 5ma difference on neutral side to trip. First make sure you have nothing else running at the same time on that circuit. Before running a new circuit I would disconnect the gfci breaker in the main panel and install a regular breaker and test to see if it still trips. If it doesn’t leave the regular breaker in and install separate gfci plugs in your bathroom, outside, etc.

That sounds like a reasonable idea to test. My buddy I work with is going to school to be an electrician and I was talking to him about my issue with the compressor so first things first, he his going to grab me his clamp on ammeter, which I figured would be a good place to start.

When you say install install GFCI plugs in my bathroom etc, thats just the outlet ones correct? Is the wiring already present to do this from the original run. All the bathrooms would be easy but the one outside one would prob be an issue, but then again nothing really gets ran off that one and my compressor isn't always on so I'm sure if something were plugged in, it wouldnt interfere with the time frame

 

[fox_forma]

BMWPOWER: How exactly do you check the valve, I don't have the manual with me at this moment.

 

[wilbilt]

My compressor bleeds off air as it shuts down from hitting the set pressure, so I'm not sure if this is the problem or not.

It's supposed to do that...bleed off head pressure, so that when the motor starts when you draw down the pressure, it is not starting against a head full of compressed air. That would likely lock up the motor and trip the breaker for sure.

"Head pressure unloaders" can be of several types. On smaller compressors, they are generally a valve on the pressure switch connected to the compressor head via a 1/4" line. When the compressor reaches pressure and the switch shuts off, it opens the valve to relieve the pressure.

Larger compressors generally use a centifugal unloader that vents head pressure until the motor reaches operating RPM.

Engine-driven compressors use another type that is tied in to a throttle control/governor.

 

[bobbyd]

You don't need to up the wire size for a dedicated motor circuit. You're allowed to up the breaker per code to avoid nuisance tripping.

Did not know that.

 

[bmwpower]

Did not know that.

Yea, I guess this is due to the fact that there are motors that pull a lot of amps for a brief period of time when starting. The subsequent running amps is much lower.

 

[toolman]

When you say install install GFCI plugs in my bathroom etc, thats just the outlet ones correct? Is the wiring already present to do this from the original run.

Yes just the outlets. Yes you would use the same wire that is used on that circuit. Just remove standard plug and install a gfci outlet. Just remember when you wire the gfci’s in you will not use the load side of the gfci’s. So the hot lead that leads to your next outlet you will have to wire nut to your hot lead before you connect it to the line side of the first gfci. Another words you will pigtail the hot to the line side of the gfci. Does this seem clear?

 

[fox_forma]

well i think I will make my buddy do all that stuff with changing out the outlet if the none gfci breaker works. We'll see what happens but the way things are going I'm most likely going to have to run a new line somehow.

 

[fox_forma]

I have a quick question again. I went to sears to ask about the compressor problems just to see if they had any recent insight on the matter. While I was talking to the person about my issue two separate customers commented saying they have the same compressor and have had no problems at all running on a 15amp breaker, and theirs weren't a dedicated line either. But they dont have the GFCI type breaker I had. So I decided to grab a regular 15A breaker and while looking at it and the 20A breaker, on the back of them they each have writing which looks like this....

50/60 HZ A nom I/AIR
#14-#8 AWG AL/CU
(2.5-6mm*2) 60/75 C

#14-#10 AWG CU
(2.5-6mm*2) 60/75 C
36 lb-in/pulg/po (4 n x m)

This was on each breaker just like that. Can anyone explain what exactly this means? Looking at the AWG, does that mean the 20A can be used with a 14AWG wire? Just a little confused about it all.

To run a full dedicated line from the box will be a good amount of $$$ and also defeats the purpose of a compressor that will be used every once in a while.
Thanks

 

[toolman]

I have a quick question again. I went to sears to ask about the compressor problems just to see if they had any recent insight on the matter. While I was talking to the person about my issue two separate customers commented saying they have the same compressor and have had no problems at all running on a 15amp breaker, and theirs weren't a dedicated line either. But they dont have the GFCI type breaker I had. So I decided to grab a regular 15A breaker and while looking at it and the 20A breaker, on the back of them they each have writing which looks like this....

50/60 HZ A nom I/AIR
#14-#8 AWG AL/CU
(2.5-6mm*2) 60/75 C

#14-#10 AWG CU
(2.5-6mm*2) 60/75 C
36 lb-in/pulg/po (4 n x m)

This was on each breaker just like that. Can anyone explain what exactly this means? Looking at the AWG, does that mean the 20A can be used with a 14AWG wire? Just a little confused about it all.

To run a full dedicated line from the box will be a good amount of $$$ and also defeats the purpose of a compressor that will be used every once in a while.
Thanks

50/60 hertz is the frequency of electricity. 60hertz is standard
AL (aluminum wire) CU (copper wire) this is what kind of wire allowed to be used with the breaker. One breaker with an AL/CU can use either copper or aluminum wire, while the one listed with CU only can be used with copper wire.

 

[fox_forma]

so if the 20A and 15A have the same thing written on them like above what does that mean? I'm under the impression 20A must be used with nothing larger than 12awg. Why does it say 14awg-8 on the breaker?

 

[bmwpower]

so if the 20A and 15A have the same thing written on them like above what does that mean? I'm under the impression 20A must be used with nothing larger than 12awg. Why does it say 14awg-8 on the breaker?

#14-#8 is the size wire the terminals will accept. You will sometimes need to wire things with larger wire due to voltage drop over a distance. The larger the wire, the less voltage drop over a distance. That's why the terminals fit larger wire. As for why it takes smaller wire... In certain cases, you're allowed to up size the breaker for dedicated motor circuits to avoid nusiance tripping.

 

[fox_forma]

ok that makes sense, just had me a little confused. Thanks

 

[fox_forma]

well i was able to borrow my neighbors compressor down the street to see if his would work. He has the black oiled series 25gal hot dog craftsman one. Plugged it in, and no problems with the breaker. So looks like I am going to return the 33gal upright for that one. Hopefully my luck will be ok and that one will work fine. I don't see why not since my neighbors was ok but theres always that chance.

I noticed on his it says the MAX RPM is only like 700 or something like that. I believe the red craftsman i have is 3450RPM or maybe its 2450RPM, could the slower RPMS be the difference possibly? Oh and the black hot dog one is 50x quieter so the red upright is def going back.

 

[wilbilt]

Yes just the outlets. Yes you would use the same wire that is used on that circuit. Just remove standard plug and install a gfci outlet. Just remember when you wire the gfci’s in you will not use the load side of the gfci’s. So the hot lead that leads to your next outlet you will have to wire nut to your hot lead before you connect it to the line side of the first gfci. Another words you will pigtail the hot to the line side of the gfci. Does this seem clear?

Toolman, since all his outlets running off the GFCI breaker are on the same circuit, couldn't he just put a GFCI outlet on the first one and then connect the others to the "load" side of the outlet? It seems like he has only 3 or 4 total on that circuit.

 

[fox_forma]

From what I can figure out, as long as I'm not missing another outlet somewhere it runs from the box in the basement to the outside outlet, then up to the bathrooms, then down to the garage. No where else as far as i can tell

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Your red upright is probably causing a GFCI trip. The GFCI breaker doesn't have a seperate reset for GFCI trips, it just has a test button and the on/tripped/off lever, correct? You have no way to know if the trip is Ground fault related or overload related, except that by trying the other compressor, you have pretty well proved the breaker is not tripping due to an overload, possibly. Something could be happening in the motor that is causing the 4-6 miliamp current differential. In other words, the current going out of the breaker is not the same as the current coming back thru the neutral, and if it is more than 4 to 6 miliamps different the sensor trips the breakers lever. The test button fakes a 4-6 ma differential to test the breaker.

I prefer the individual GFCI receptacles, it seems you have less problems with them.

In any case, you have 14 gauge wire and a 15 amp breaker. If you use the compressor much at all, you really need a heavier circuit. Running a circuit at the max on rare ocassion is OK, doing it frequently is bad. It will weaken the breaker, and of course, cause heating of the wire, and at connections, could become a problem if you have a not so good connection somewhere.

Charles

 

[fox_forma]

Correct it just has a test button on it. I really would prefer to run a whole new line or two to my garage but like I said there just isnt an easy way of doing it with the layout of my house plus the cost of it. I have to go up into the attic again because I think I found a route to go up and over to the garage and if thats the case then I will be fine but I'm sure it wont work out since nothing else has been lately. Only if the garage side of the house wasn't on a concrete slab and I had a basement over there, or my main attic went all the way over to the garage side, but no none of this would be sensible.

 

[wilbilt]

From what I can figure out, as long as I'm not missing another outlet somewhere it runs from the box in the basement to the outside outlet, then up to the bathrooms, then down to the garage. No where else as far as i can tell

If the garage is at the end of the run, you would need to install the individual GFCI outlets at each location (except the garage) if using the existing wiring.