Craftsman 540 Pc set

[nikonica]

*One of the unique things about Dual 80 is that the ratchet mechanism is stronger than the square drive. Technically the drive will shear off before the gears strip. This is new and really does make breaker bars obsolete.

I can help you break a Dual 80 if you think it's not possible.

Just kidding! You seem to put a lot of thought into your posts which is commendable, even if not everyone agrees.

 

[defektes]

SKs execution may be fantastic. I believe you guys that this is a quality item. But here's where I'm coming from:

If you are just starting out working on cars with hand tools, I think you are better off starting with longer handled ratchets to help you remove stuck hardware from your likely older vehicles.

Today, you can get ratchets as strong as breakers. And that's a big advantage for reasons I won't go into. But the ratchets that are as strong as breakers*, aren't cheap. They tend to be the truck tool models.

The opportunity for guys starting out is that they can buy these great ratchets beat up on ebay cheap. Old farts like me like pristine chrome and specific colors of specific handles (mine are yellow hard handles for example). We don't bid on the clapped out stuff. The new ratchets (unlike the SK linked) have 100% replaceable guts. That means you can get new guts for $10 or free if customer service is feeling generous and you have a low priced tool (easily under $50) that functions just like one costing over $100.

Because the ratcheting mechansims are typically the same for all models in a given drive size, shorter ratchets have the exact same torque capability as the long models. But you don't need that strength because you probably can't produce it anyway. So that's an opportunity to save some cash on the shorter stuff and buy a lower quality tool.

Okay, one last thing about the SK ratchet. The teeth are broached into the handle and are not replaceable. Only the pawl mechanism is replaceable. All round head ratchets that I know about, including Snap On, are the same. So these are less of a good buy second hand. Its possible the bodies are worn out and can't be fixed. If you can get warranty service for a second hand model, great. (but that's kind of a creep thing to do, buying used and asking for new, if you ask me). Newbies and people on a tight budget should stick with a used model that has 100% replaceable design.

P.S. thrilled that SK includes the larger sized 1/2" sockets. Very happy to be corrected on that important point. Someone should contact Amazon.com to correct them. I feel much better about that 1/2" set now. I would prefer they skipped some of the worthless sizes (20, 23mm) and offer a 27. But Snap On doesn't offer the 27mm in their basic chrome set either. Its 12-24mm inclusive.

*One of the unique things about Dual 80 is that the ratchet mechanism is stronger than the square drive. Technically the drive will shear off before the gears strip. This is new and really does make breaker bars obsolete. There may be other ratchets on the market today that have similar strength. But I don't think any single pawl ratchets are this strong.

In the old days, when I used breakers, I used 12pt sockets so I could put the breaker handle where it would fit and be comfortable for me. This was one reason why we had 12pt sockets and why box wrenches today are 12pt. That also means, 12 pt heads excepted, we no longer need 12pt sockets like we used to.

Last word: Not advocating brands here. Happy guys have their favorites. Tools are very personal. Not trying to talk anyone into anything. I'm just trying to share why I made the recommendations I did. Has nothing to do with brand loyalty (i.e, Snap on kool aid), rather, 25years engineering, car repair, and manufacturing experience.

Good points, I will argue however that the SK head is designed stronger than the pawls to prevent wear and breakage. But, does not mean it cannot happen. SK will swap it out regardless of purchaser as long as it was not abused.

You are correct that 12 pt sockets were for back in the day when T handles and breakers were very common and used much more frequently.

Another thing the OP can look into if he wants fine tooth (The Snap Ons listed are excellent products and will serve him very well.) is every tool set should be supplemented with a very long 1/2 ratchet. If you already stated this, I apologize.

You can probably score a NOS SK 1/2 Tuff flex that is 18'' long for about 30 bucks like I did. They pop up frequently on Amazon. These ratchets are not as strong as the Snap on or the old SK design but silky smooth and a pleasure to work with.

OP: I have had first hand experience with the HF stubbies I would not suggest them. My company has a ton in the community box and even when new they like to skip gears, tried lubing them still to no effect. I'd spend a little more on a different brand than HF to save your knuckles.

 

[Kenskip1]

This may be one of the best bangs for the buck out their. Hope this helps, Ken

http://www.jbtoolsales.com/gearwrench-83091-tep-set-career-builder-starter#oid=1002_1

 

[PJNJ]

I have on more than one occasion read the claims that pear head ratchets are inherently stronger than round head ratchets but no one has posted any links to tests proving that. I did a quick search and only found a few tests including this -

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/additional-how-to/1310-ratchet-handles-torture-test/

I know the ratchets were not top brands but the amount of torque for even the worst, the used Craftsman rp, was pretty impressive. And the round head ratchets did pretty well - the top ratchet was a pear head at 890 ft. lbs. vs. 828 ft. lbs. of the round head and they were both cheap brands as the others in the test as it was a junkyard tools test.

And in this test the round heads (regular and roto) also performed very well -

http://sonic.net/~alexz/Ratchet shootout.pdf

Perhaps the round head ratchet design is still in use because it works and is more than strong enough. And I don't see a wear test in my quick search. Maybe someone else would have some tests or facts on that.

 

[n8n]

Thanks for some really enlightening posts...

Unfortunately my two long ratchets are a Williams S-53 and a SK whatever the long version of their round head is... I'll keep using them until they're well and truly slap wore out, because I have them.

What is your opinion on the new Williams flippy lever long handle 1/2" ratchet? My understanding is that it is essentially a Snap-On but the older coarse tooth design. Worth a pickup, or hold out for a Dual 80? Dual 80 guts fit in it or no go?

For what it's worth, the last truly busted ratchet I had in my hands was a Williams S-52 - it is a round head design and relies on teeth in the body, but the failure mode was that both pawls and the pins that they pivot on were all shattered. I'm willing to wager that had a rebuild kit been available for that ratchet, I'd still be using it.

 

[lordy123]

Thanks for some really enlightening posts...

X2!

Do you know if what design koken is using for their new wrenches by chance?

 

[6MocoA]

*One of the unique things about Dual 80 is that the ratchet mechanism is stronger than the square drive. Technically the drive will shear off before the gears strip.

Adam,

I love reading the posts you've made in this thread and agree with nearly everything you've said. Also, you experience and expertise far surpasses mine. But I would like to take exception to what you wrote up here - at least from my experience.

A year or two ago, I picked up an FHLF80 (the 15 in flex head 3/8 drive) used. Wanting to put it to the test to see just how strong it was, I put it on a 21mm wheel nut torqued to 85 ft/lb on my Tacoma. A few good strong pulls caused the teeth inside to give up - the ratchet would totally spin without engaging the pawls. I emailed SO customer service and they graciously sent out a free rebuild kit. Ratchet works fine now but Ive never put it up against a lug nut again.

My point is that even the Dual 80's will strip if they are old and used.

 

[6MocoA]

When new, all Dual 80's will achieve in excess of 250 ftlbs. Try yours again. Make sure it's not over greased. Pull as hard as you can. You should not be able to break it. Its important that you do this to generate confidence in your tools. You need to know where their limits are.

Will do.

 

[Super Sport]

*One of the unique things about Dual 80 is that the ratchet mechanism is stronger than the square drive. Technically the drive will shear off before the gears strip. This is new and really does make breaker bars obsolete. There may be other ratchets on the market today that have similar strength. But I don't think any single pawl ratchets are this strong.

You've provided some great info in this thread Adam! But I have to point this one out. Dual 80 may be stronger than older ratchet designs, but I think the square drive end is the weakest point in many ratchets. I used to work at Sears, and you wouldn't believe how many ratchets came back with the drive end sheared off. The gears in the ratchet were rarely a failure point.

 

[n8n]

You've provided some great info in this thread Adam! But I have to point this one out. Dual 80 may be stronger than older ratchet designs, but I think the square drive end is the weakest point in many ratchets. I used to work at Sears, and you wouldn't believe how many ratchets came back with the drive end sheared off. The gears in the ratchet were rarely a failure point.

You may have just helped prove his point, most C'man ratchets are the flippy lever type, not round heads. The older ones do seem to have been rather stout in contrast to the latest RP ones which seem to be primarily made of poop, fail, and pressed cheese food product. The biggest complaint about the older ones seems to be ergonomics and coarse teeth not strength.

 

[n8n]

You cannot replace S936 guts with S80 guts to make a Dual 80 out of an older model.

If you follow me, I'm trying to go about this the other way. What do you need? Quick story:I was recently swapping front rotors on my 2009 Land Rover LR3. The caliper bolts are M14(?) with 21mm 12pt heads torqued to 300Nm (220ftlbs) and I couldn't get my gun on them for stupid reasons I won't go into.

The Williams 1/2" ratchet is 15" long. That would mean I would need to apply 176 pounds to a ratchet inside a wheel well. I had a Snap On SHLF80A (aka Mr. Big). At 26" long and with a flex head, I was able to generate the 100lbs needed to break those puppies free. So you tell me which ratchet you want?

If you can get a Williams version of an S936 that's 2'+ long for cheap I'd go for it. The S936 is plenty strong in 1/2" drive. I trust Williams. I would gladly take a euro ratchet, Facom, Koken, etc. Does HF make one of these? What are the specs for it? Hate to ask, but would you believe a Chinese tool company's spec sheet? And do you think they actually deliver product that meets it? Personally, I've had negative experiences. You want long, strong, fine teeth if possible, flex head if available, comfy grip preferable.

One advantage of the SHLF80A is the high effective tooth count. Those caliper bolts were tight all the way out. And I had very little space to ratchet.

Hopefully I'm answering the question you answered.

Makes sense, and now that I look into it, I see that the Williams S-52EHLA (rigid) and EHFA (flex) are significantly shorter than the SHLF80A that you mention, despite being ostensibly long handle ratchets (the EHFA is not advertised as same but is only 3/4" shorter than the EHLA). Unfortunately, the S-52EHFA is $50-60 new online whereas the SHLF80A seems to be trending at about $150-200 used on "a certain auction site" and list price on it is eye watering. (hence my question about interchangeability of mechanisms.)

Now to be fair, I do see your point. I have actually used a SHLF80A exactly once in my life, but it was in a situation where using anything else would have taken a significantly longer amount of time (replacing a motor mount on an old 4-cylinder Ford Ranger; rather than disassemble a bunch of stuff or bodging together several universals an extensions, I just lifted the truck, pulled the LF wheel, and went in through the wheel well without any significant amount of trouble at all. I could have used a breaker bar, but then I would have had lots of repositioning until the nut were loose enough to spin off by hand.)

But in the decision that I have to make now, which is, would this awesome ratchet make my life better enough that I should buy it? Probably not, as I already have ratchets and breaker bars (I would have said "plenty" but I have actually been giving away a lot of redundant tools lately.)

To someone starting out who has nothing, or to someone who's considering a career as a professional mechanic, your points are definitely worth thinking about. I'm also inclined now to keep my old round heads for places where space is limited but to think about going pear head (whether it be Snap-On, Williams, Proto, or other) for general use due to your very good point about the body being a working part of the round head wrench.

Just a personal PS: Remember, I started fixing cars 30 years ago because I was broke and needed to get to work and later college. I had no money and a few rusty taiwan tools (which were made of chewing gum but so was my Honda civic). I later bought craftsman tools which I used most of my adult life with mixed success.

I continued to fix cars so that I could become a better aerospace engineer. I wanted to be more in tune with the guys and gals who put my parts together and serviced them around the world. I think I've learned a lot. But in the past couple years, I've turned up the heat on my automotive work. The kids are getting to driving age. They will need up to date help and advice. I have a lot more to learn. Cars are different than they used to be.

My goal for My kids is to take them thru technical school with me and become certified auto mechanics. I think it's a helpful life skill and...there's a spiritual part about fixing stuff that's broken- cars, relationships, your house, the environment, its a positive thing to do. That's why I have so much respect for you pro auto techs and really all you guys. We need more fixers in this world. Anything I can do to help you I will.

Really hope this thread's been helpful and encourages you to make something in your world better, whether it's your tool collection, your ride, or anything else.

You sound a lot like myself, albeit that I am guessing that I'm about 10 years younger than you. I'm at the point now where a) I finally have enough tools to do most basic jobs without having to borrow much (although it seems that every time I do a new job i still end up borrowing or buying at least one small tool...) and b) there are younger people in my life now who are beginning this journey on their own, and things are way different than when I was in their position (most notably, I wouldn't buy a new C'man mechanic's set today whereas that's exactly what you and I both did back in the day) and I want to make sure that I'm giving good advice for "tools that will last a lifetime."

I may not be able to contribute a whole lot but when one of the younger generation, years from today, pulls out the tools they got now I hope that they are still serving them well and that I'm remembered positively for helping to get him "the good stuff." I have to admit that that's exactly how I feel when I come across my grandfather's old 3/8" SK socket set. (yes, it's a round head, but *despite* the fact that it's probably 50 years old and a less than ideal configuration, it still works fine, although it's been retired for sentimental reasons.) So that combined with the fact that I'm a mechanical engineer by degree if not by avocation, I find discussions like this to be incredibly interesting and relevant. For years I never thought much about my ratchets as they were "just tools" but the more I use them the more I realize that there are real, meaningful differences between the different brands and designs and that a good tool really can make a difference in some situations. Not all or necessarily even many, but it only takes one bad experience at an important time to drive home the point that you might as well buy the good stuff to avoid regret.

 

[n8n]

After looking on the various web sites, I see now that the SLF80A is the same as the SHLF80A but with the "standard handle" (which I actually prefer) and is around $120ish on that certain auction site.

Also, I think I'd be tempted to get the SLX80A or SHLX80A (locking, standard or "comfort grip" handle respectively) but the SLX80A is also extravagant but not completely silly on "that certain auction site" unless someone could come up with an argument as to why I wouldn't want a locking flex as opposed to a regular flex... however I've never had ANY flex heads at all other than my SO torque wrench, so I haven't had the opportunity to really make an informed decision.

Leadeth me not into temptation...

 

[sberry]

This is for the new guy. You too can be a compulsive mental masturbator about a ratchet but it aint worth it. If you don't have one get a HF breaker bar to start with and one or 2 of their pro ratchets. When you wear it out in about 25 yrs it will be worth about as much in scrap as you paid for it, get another.

 

[sk farmer]

This is for the new guy. You too can be a compulsive mental masturbator about a ratchet but it aint worth it. If you don't have one get a HF breaker bar to start with and one or 2 of their pro ratchets. When you wear it out in about 25 yrs it will be worth about as much in scrap as you paid for it, get another.

well said and in one paragraph!

 

[defektes]

You cannot replace S936 guts with S80 guts to make a Dual 80 out of an older model.

If you follow me, I'm trying to go about this the other way. What do you need? Quick story:I was recently swapping front rotors on my 2009 Land Rover LR3. The caliper bolts are M14(?) with 21mm 12pt heads torqued to 300Nm (220ftlbs) and I couldn't get my gun on them for stupid reasons I won't go into.

The Williams 1/2" ratchet is 15" long. That would mean I would need to apply 176 pounds to a ratchet inside a wheel well. I had a Snap On SHLF80A (aka Mr. Big). At 26" long and with a flex head, I was able to generate the 100lbs needed to break those puppies free. So you tell me which ratchet you want?

If you can get a Williams version of an S936 that's 2'+ long for cheap I'd go for it. The S936 is plenty strong in 1/2" drive. I trust Williams. I would gladly take a euro ratchet, Facom, Koken, etc. Does HF make one of these? What are the specs for it? Hate to ask, but would you believe a Chinese tool company's spec sheet? And do you think they actually deliver product that meets it? Personally, I've had negative experiences. You want long, strong, fine teeth if possible, flex head if available, comfy grip preferable.

One advantage of the SHLF80A is the high effective tooth count. Those caliper bolts were tight all the way out. And I had very little space to ratchet.

Hopefully I'm answering the question you answered.

Just a personal PS: Remember, I started fixing cars 30 years ago because I was broke and needed to get to work and later college. I had no money and a few rusty taiwan tools (which were made of chewing gum but so was my Honda civic). I later bought craftsman tools which I used most of my adult life with mixed success.

I continued to fix cars so that I could become a better aerospace engineer. I wanted to be more in tune with the guys and gals who put my parts together and serviced them around the world. I think I've learned a lot. But in the past couple years, I've turned up the heat on my automotive work. The kids are getting to driving age. They will need up to date help and advice. I have a lot more to learn. Cars are different than they used to be.

My goal for My kids is to take them thru technical school with me and become certified auto mechanics. I think it's a helpful life skill and...there's a spiritual part about fixing stuff that's broken- cars, relationships, your house, the environment, its a positive thing to do. That's why I have so much respect for you pro auto techs and really all you guys. We need more fixers in this world. Anything I can do to help you I will.

Really hope this thread's been helpful and encourages you to make something in your world better, whether it's your tool collection, your ride, or anything else.

Adam, great points, lots of knowledge, not only for the new guy but me too.

 

[oldldh]

You too can be a compulsive mental masturbator about a ratchet but it aint worth it. If you don't have one get a HF breaker bar to start with and one or 2 of their pro ratchets. When you wear it out in about 25 yrs it will be worth about as much in scrap as you paid for it, get another.

Now there's some advice that makes sense!!!

I don't often give one for information...

But you deserve it...'

YA DUN GUD, BUBBA!!!

 

[Jacobson]

I have the 250 pc set. I think I paid $150 for it.
What a great price, and they work just fine.
Wow, they are $199 now.

http://www.craftsman.com/craftsman-...p-00931783000P?prdNo=1&blockNo=1&blockType=G1

 

[sberry]

Well since this is alive and well I might jump back in. My work isn't limited to farm equipment but as much automotive, small engines and pretty much anything that stands moves or is needed to sustain life.
I am a great estimator, way better than a calculator and a guy like Adam is way smarter than I am, capable of understanding, designing that would be impossible for myself. I agree totyally with the fact that this has made him a better engineer, it couldn't help it.
Since I live by estimation I need to have some kind of reference, I check my use of air gun against torque wrench and after a fair amount of work with torqued fasteners I am as good as a fool with a torque stick.
The calculator can figure out how the thing works but I do have another asset in this game and that's experience. Its a bit different than working on a few of my own cars or coming across the occasional tight bolt, which on cars only a few being a real challenge on occasion, mostly in suspension and lug nuts which are well served by a few cheap impact sockets for the most part.
I spent 10 yrs on the road, worked for 50 contractors and several shops, maybe more, not only my own experience which involves more than a few cars I had, but hundreds and thousands of my own hours as well as pushing men for somewhere in hundreds of thousands in oil, construction, auto/truck and ag.
I got another 20 in my shop on my own equipment and various contracting including master mechanics all use my tools in a pool, they have seen use way beyond what any single mechanic would be able to apply and,,, when we need something new or special I don't hesitate to get it.
I was going to get a few new things and my master said, nice but we went this far without, this is a master in auto and had/has or seen every tool they invented and a lot of tool trucks come and go. We live by the combination wrench and socket, the rest is a little juice or a special problem solver. People that have not fully learned these are constantly reaching for something else, that doesn't mean guys that use a ratchet don't know, but I have heard a whole career of "I cant"
The Sears has proved itself, not so much in quality but in affordability to get started quickly and it lasted and,,, the new is as good or better really.
My take is for the guy entering that is looking for a new too set as is the OP, you can play the game forever about whats the best etc and sort thru what you need but Sears really does a pretty good job of this.
Its cheap enough pieces can be upgraded, replaced etc, this is a really good place to get off to a start and get a few tools you need under your belt and some of the best mechanics I know still use the originals they bought when we were sprouts.

 

[PJNJ]

This advice does nothing to help a guy trying to swap a timing belt on a Honda civic. If you are working on farm equipment like SBerry, maybe you can get away with breakers and cheap tools. Generally his advice, which may have been my own some years ago, to build skill and forget fancy or expensive tools, frankly hasn't kept pace with modern automotive technology.

Modern cars have less clearance, and higher torques. I can explain why some other time if anyone is interested. And its a trend that won't reverse. My Land Rover has the Jag 2.7 diesel engine. It has belts on both ends of the engine. The dealership use Snap On high performance 0 degree ratchet wrenches ($50 each) and they thread them down the narrow cavity between the firewall and the back of the engine. If more work is required, I've heard rumors they jack the body off the chassis!

If you want to practically fix a modern car, you will need modern tools at least. Now you might be able to get away with HF stuff. No doubt good mechanics can. But pros don't. My advice above was to use HF stuff where it added no risk or potential discomfort/inconvenience.

On modern vehicles, the consequence of breaking a tool, or stripping a (likely) non standard bolt typically far outweighs the cost difference between the best tool brands and HF. We talk abut Snap On like you have to mortgage you house to get it. If you want an entire box full of truck tools, maybe that would be the case for some. But that wasn't what I was recommending. And recall that the kit I recommended came out cheaper than the Craftsman.

I don't want to quibble with people who disagree. I welcome disagreements because they help the wider community. And I know you guys don't like my long posts. But I just feel like advice without the details is no help. We need the content and qualifiers if we are going to be convincing or helpful. I have kids, I know. They don't just do what I tell them.

Though you have a great deal of good information to provide, you should be careful about assumptions about other people, their abilities and experience. I think "sberry" just gave you an example of that. And the way you stated it was (hopefully unintentionally) insulting to him

 

[n8n]

Another thought for this thread, although not exactly pertinent to the OP's question re: a Craftsman mechanic's set, but to Craftsman tools in general.

Years ago I bought a VW 16V GTI used. It was a "barn car" so it was in excellent shape but needed a lot of working bits replaced. One of the things that needed to be fixed was the load-sensing proportioning valve, which I discovered didn't work when I got cut off on the freeway at about 70 MPH (not the best time to discover these things.) Well, I had in my toolbox a set of flare wrenches that I'd bought at Sears because I figured I'd have to do brake work on one of my kraut burners eventually. I had a new prop valve in my hand and crawled under the car, verified that the new part looked like the old one only shinier, and started trying to undo the lines to the old one. On the very first fitting my Craftsman RP flare nut wrench spread like a cheap ******; even a pair of vice grips clamped over the head couldn't get it to bite on that fitting. Rather than mangle all of them with vice grips I punted and took the car to a VW specific repair shop to have it fixed.

My local Sears didn't have any flare wrenches to swap me, so I actually didn't have one at all for a while until I was able to get the screwed up one warrantied. I'm not sure if either GJ or eBay even existed back then, but had they, the advice to skip the Cman stuff and go straight to the truck brand tools would have been welcome. Yes, the Cman wrenches were "affordable" but they just don't work, and two hours of labor at a shop will cost the same as a set of Snap-On or SK metric flare wrenches, and then I'll have the wrenches for the next job. As it was, I ended up buying SK flare wrenches later on anyway, so I not only paid for the Cman wrenches, but paid a mechanic to do the job I thought I could do myself because I had the tools (and was unable to buy any better tools on short notice), then paid again later to buy the tools I should have had in the first place. Wouldn't it have been a little more painful up front but in the long run a much better deal to have just bought the right stuff from the get go?

I know at the time I was just really frustrated because I didn't know anyone that worked as a pro mechanic nor was really part of that world at that time; my perception back then was that Craftsman tools were good quality and there might be fancier, shinier stuff out there but that the Cman stuff while a little rough around the edges was perfectly adequate for any job. It took me a while to figure out that there were instances were this was definitely not the case, this was probably one of the earliest (would have been around Y2K when I had that car, and the car would have been about 12 years old at the time, so not very rusty or challenging.) I was very confused and doubting myself, what was I doing wrong, why could pro wrenches do work like this all day every day and I'm breaking tools on my first fitting? (I had presoaked with penetrating oil even.) The answer as I have learned over the years is that when it comes to little fiddly soft fittings on older (by most people's standards, not mine<G>) machinery, the quality of your tools ABSOLUTELY matters, and that even an only moderately ambitious DIYer would be well served to just buy the pro grade tools rather than mess about with tool-shaped objects that might work for one or two jobs.

I'm sure there's other situations where the same advice should apply, and posts like Adam.C's help one figure that stuff out, IMHO.

 

[LB-1911]

Post # 37

I want to thank everyone for their responses, there is definitely some knowledge and experience here, I will do some more researching and poking around.

Post # 41

Jesus, I think I'll delete my post and quit GJ. All I wanted to offer was an alternate perspective for the OP.

unsubscribe

And here we are - post # 113 with an additional 8 posts on your part.


Post # 90

Didn't really want to get into this here,

I have to wonder why you have not starting your own thread, there are those that have found your posts informative and a separate thread with the info up front may prove beneficial to some.

 

[sberry]

I like Adams posts, he brings a qualified engineer flair to these and he knows the tech side and the math way better than I ever will.
I agree there are a dew line items that most agree are really substandard, the RP ratchet, the flare wrench is pitiful as well but these are relatively minor and considering the cost use till failure or toss for better.
At this cost the loss is minor, about lunch money scale. If it cost what a snap did then it would be another matter.
Where I am with this is start ups where there is a real demand and if a guy sees payback then he can search out further but 2 in the bush isn't worth a dam and the beginner despite the great advice which comes from different angles becomes confusing at best.
I think Sears ***** and they shot themselves in the foot with a race to the bottom trying to keep up with HF, big mistake, they once held the lead in some sense and were regarded by the world as being plenty adequate without much debate but others come along and did it better.
This however has been a benefit for consumers, the stuff is consumable or disposable priced and in the end it has lasted decades. A guy could buy new yearly and come out on top of the math. We can buy a Cman for the sales tax on some premium brands and most users are not refined enough to see a major difference but for a few pieces and instances where a professional would have it backed up.
We got other stuff but,,,,,,,,,,,,, we got it after and got as needed. Shopping is so easy today in comparison of 30 or 40 yrs ago I let the store keep the stock until needed and there is no point for the amateur or hobby types and even pros now to sit on big investments in pieces soon finding themselves riding a drawer for the most part of a career.
I started where Adam is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I went back as times changed, today Walmarts, Sears and HF would be on my short list if I had to start over and work up from there.
I wore out a couple ratchets early in my career, the next last a lifetime as I learn more and make a move to power as most do earlier on today. I bought this over the counter, over priced by a couple bucks in the location but hasn't so much as had a loose screw in 3 decades in a brutal tool pool, still 50% serviceable, how good it need to be for 20$.

 

[n8n]

I like Adams posts, he brings a qualified engineer flair to these and he knows the tech side and the math way better than I ever will.
I agree there are a dew line items that most agree are really substandard, the RP ratchet, the flare wrench is pitiful as well but these are relatively minor and considering the cost use till failure or toss for better.

Hah! just goes to show you how we can agree on some points and yet totally disagree on others.

Do RP ratchets ****? Undeniably. However, I used mine for probably 15 years before upgrading and if I needed one I'd probably use it again. (I still have them, although they're like the backups to my backups now.)

Do RP flare wrenches ****? Yes. So badly that they're not worth the small money that they go for.

So for someone starting out, a yard sale RP USA Cman ratchet for $5 is a great buy. It can be your backup ratchet for the rest of your life, long as you have some snap ring pliers and oil handy. IMHO the corresponding flare wrench set for $5 would be a waste of $5. (this is the kind of stuff that I'm assuming the OP wants to know.)

FWIW for a real "just starting out" tool set you could do worse than hitting up your local pawn shops, Craigslist, and the classifieds here. I've recently put together about two and a half basic toolsets for people who for various reasons found themselves in need of them but had nothing for probably <$100 each if I'd bothered to keep track by doing just that. Even got some goodies for myself out of the deal (one pawn shop tool lot had some SK 1/4" extensions with the knurling which I promptly put into my own toolbox as I prefer those to the Cman ones I'd been using.) Mostly old USA Cman, but when you're talking about sockets, that's acceptable for a starter set IMHO (and this may just be prejudice speaking but I'd rather have that than new China Cman.)

 

[OutsideMachinist]

Problem is time spent also. People just want to buy it and be done with it. For me locally, the pawn shops are overpriced and not much better at flea markets. I recently started using ebay, and there is some gems to be found but you have to sift through a lot of bs to find anything worthwhile. People are selling brand new stuff for more than it costs in the big box store or hf or amazon etc. The used stuff a lot of it they think is highly collectible or they are very proud of it.

I am not going to pay over 50% of the cost of new for something used, especially if it is beat up. I don't care about cosmetics, but worn is worn. You have people charging 80% the cost of a brand new same item. That is ridiculous.

 

[n8n]

Problem is time spent also. People just want to buy it and be done with it. For me locally, the pawn shops are overpriced and not much better at flea markets. I recently started using ebay, and there is some gems to be found but you have to sift through a lot of bs to find anything worthwhile. People are selling brand new stuff for more than it costs in the big box store or hf or amazon etc. The used stuff a lot of it they think is highly collectible or they are very proud of it.

I am not going to pay over 50% of the cost of new for something used, especially if it is beat up. I don't care about cosmetics, but worn is worn. You have people charging 80% the cost of a brand new same item. That is ridiculous.

Good point. I like the 50% rule although that does not seem to hold for Snap-On for some reason. I will hold to that and walk away if a deal isn't good.

 

[sberry]

I agree about the time in some cases. On some of the sets Sears has done a good job of selection, many of these new users don't know what they need and while it seems like some filler those are also things a guy needs.
A few don't get used but its not a deal breaker, same with some sockets in sets, I got a few I bet big money I never have used.
Pawns and others are ok but as I mentioned before, the price on these hard line tools has tanked, unless we are talking about premium items its really not worth it.

 

[sberry]

Worked on a tractor, a car, a pickup, a golf cart, 2 lawn mowers, a pumping unit, a couple valves today while cleaning shop. Maybe more, cant recall. Our variety is endless. I tried to estimate some numbers. I don't work as an auto mechanic but the cars are in the thousands, I must have welded on car/truck maybe 3000 times.
Forgot a windmill repair too.
I am the shop so I got to have fancier tools but it isn't what I really use. I use common sockets, nut drivers and combination wrenches unless there is a specific reason it wont work.

 

[sberry]

A lot of this is extra or dupes.

 

[sk farmer]

sberry..........

i don't always agree with you but you have that same unique perspective that i have. when someone claims that you "need" to have a specific tool or type of tool or brand of tool and if you have anything less your are less than a pro or a hack or somehow incapable or less than qualified for the task. we know what a crock of warm **** it is.

working in the ag field (i mean no disrespect to any other field) i know how you can work on maintaining multiple types of platforms. old skool to new technology. tractors, sprayers, trucks, lawn equipment , harvesters, planters, irrigation, plumbing, electrical and anything in between, all in the same day.

good tools are important but i will take the guy with knowledge and his tried and true over the guy who needs the kool-aid to look like a pro.

i worked with a guy last with with a fully stocked box of truck tools, a mechanics degree and 3 years of experience. he stood back and watched us old timers work on the project with our old inferior non truck brands. by no means do i imply that anyone with truck tools does not know anything, i am just stating that most tools are only as good as the guy using them and his knowledge is far more valuable than a long handle ratchet or a full polish 0 degree wrench.

 

[jolyroger7]

I actually own the Craftsman 540pc set. If you can find it at a Sears surplus it is a great deal. I bought mine new at full retail largely because of time. I travel for work and my off time is very valuable to me. The 540pc set got me 90% of the tools I need, with a lifetime warranty (who knows how much longer Sears will be around, but I do think the Craftsman brand will survive the store) from a store that is open weekends, is 3 miles from my house, all in one day. That alone was worth the less than ideal package. I already had plenty of tools, but haven't regularly used them in 6-8 years due to my career and owning a new car. My tools have been scattered to the wind by family. I just bought my first house this year, and didn't even bother to collect my old tool box from my parent's house.

There is a lot of chaff in the set. The ignition wrenches, and obstruction wrench being the least useful for me. I'm not a huge fan of having complete 6 and 12pt socket sets, deep and shallow. I also didn't think I'd need any SAE tools, but i've used some of them quite a bit around the house, and they allow me to help friends out with their cars.

The set includes a lot of not so great quality tools. The lobster claw polished stubbys and reversible ratcheting wrenches are pretty disappointing. I'll likely add a few higher end wrenches in the sizes I use the most. Thats what I did in the past. Spend money on the solutions to problem areas on the specific car I owned. You'd be amazed how long you can work with a set of junk sockets and wrenches if you never ask them to do the heavy lifting. I'm pretty sure there is a set of Benchtop? wrenches from Kmart at my dad's I bought 18 years ago for under $20 that have seen me through several motors, a few transmissions and doing brakes, tires, and lube work at a local shop. I did replace the 15mm with a nice long Mac wrench (remind me to see if I can find that, and some of the better sockets I've bought over the years). I have some old USA RP wrenches I use at work and I can see the difference between them and these new RPs. My set was missing a 15mm 6pt shallow socket, and had one extra 16mm 6pt shallow socket.

I like the 84 tooth thin profile ratchets. I originally thought the kit might come with RP ratchets and had planned to replace them right off the bat. It's pretty comprehensive and paired with my new HF 56" box, I'm organized and ready to start the teardown of my project car... as soon as I find it. I want to stuff a 5.3ls in a Roadkill style Vette Kart with coil-overs. I can't speak to its value for pro techs, and even I feel like with a little more effort I could have built a metric only set for less money, but overall it's a solid value.

 

[sberry]

I agree here in principle, as you said, didn't even bother to pick up old, simply replaced , start or start over and cherry pick after the fact. That's where the Sears set really shines, allows a guy to get his feet under himself easy and in a hurry and in the end if a guy wants to can use a long time.

 

[sberry]

Anyone have an 1980 Sears tool catalog? I had a few things but it was incomplete and small and metric was the new wave and I was coming from auto school. At that time Sears was about 10 cents to the dollar over premium.
I was kind of disappointed when it showed up, I had some of old and it was pretty good and they cheapened it then but gave me master sets of it all and took the pressure off looking for tools.
I made up and added for a road set. They used to have socket sales all the time, I think I bought 10 pc deep 3/8 for 10$ a couple times etc and another 260 set once as I recall.
What ever I didn't need was cheap enough it didn't matter much, the fluff was pretty much irrelevant or useful. All the hex stuff was well used and came in handy, found out for cheap stuff I didn't need vs ending up with several 11/32 aint got a need for 1 but a few times 20 yrs ago.
I really treat most other tools that are not simple sockets, extensions and combination wrenches as problem solvers. Havnt wore out a ratchet in 20 yrs, in small drive its 3/8 ratchet and if its humanly possible a single system in our case of 1/2 air impact. We own 4 mini vans, I can get a gun on it all. 98 pluss % with a simple straight socket and occasional extension.

 

[sberry]

The flex ratchets were super POS. The 3/8 never did work right in a couple areas and I still have the 1/2. I will agree that I might have felt different about it if I had a better one but I am impact maniac and really can figure out a way to get on it.
We had a jam up on a customer Kubota, I might have eventually bought sockets but bolts super tight and to hell with it couple minutes on a Sears wrench and extension 3x snapped loose. The wrench was super impressive. I didn't consider it but the thing may have been pre 80.

 

[sberry]

Something else to consider is work time. My interest is in production or ease, making it affordable is crucial and saving a few minutes on rare events not so much. Its so much easier to be prepared when its simple and cheaper.
I would gladly trade the 309 set for a single set of 3/8 sockets is what it amounts to.

 

[sberry]

I like the set approach cause its fast, for the best solution to a few tight bolts look to the HF breaker bar and the Stanley socket from Walmart. Gitter dun.

 

[joel63]

No way in heck I’d buy $1000 worth of craftsman tools. No way. I have 2 big problems with that set:

1) They just aren’t great tools. Cars are getting harder to work on and craftsman just doesn’t cut the mustard anymore. You need better sockets, better ratchets, better wrenches and screwdrivers to avoid screwing things up. Great mechanics can sense when something is about to go wrong and avoid problems. The rest of us need all teh help we can get.

2) There are a bunch of tools you don’t need. I’d skip the nut drivers, ignition wrenches, obstruction wrenches, 12pt sockets, 1/2" chrome, etc. This set was put together for 69 mustangs, not modern cars.

Here’s my recommendation:

<O</O
Sockets and Ratchets: Less is more<O</O
Every auto mechanic needs a good 3/8” socket set. Most modern cars are metric, so start there. The best sockets in the world are (arguably) Snap-On flank drive. They are strong, hard, and fit tight. A good socket will flex less, bite harder, and remove stuck fasteners easier and with less dmage to the fastener. If you work on newer cars, race cars, or airplanes, maybe you don’t need these. For everything else, you will benefit from having great sockets. Buy second hand on GJ or ebay in like new condition. Expect to pay $60-80 if you are patient and smart. Alternatives include Koken, Proto, Mac. Williams USA are not equivalent to Snap On. I advise caution in going cheap here.

-Go to the ratchet extremes- very long and very short
The basic set of ratchets comprises the least useful ratchets made. Jump right to the ratchets most of us use all the time. My pick is the Snap On FHLF80. Snap On’s dual 80 ratchet system is simply the best on the market. It has the effect of an 80 tooth ratchet (ratchet in tight spots, low back drag) with the strength of 36 tooth model. At 14” long, you will no longer need a breaker bar; these ratchets are that strong. These can be had for very little money when scratched up (approx. $50). Buy the cheapest, dirtiest model you can find and budget in a replacement handle ($20), and a repair kit ($10 or possibly free). There are other models from Matco or Mac, and even Craftsman and HF. Let the budget decide, but I wouldn’t recommend skimping here. This is another tool you will never regret buying from Snap On. The difference between the best ratchet in the world and a decent Craftsman could be $20-30.

Second ratchet to buy is a 3/8” stubby. Once the bolt is cracked free, you switch to your stubby for speed. Stubbies can operate in areas other ratchets can’t. They also are less mass to rotate so you save time and energy ratcheting as well. You don’t need anything special here. Get the cheapest stubby you can find. I had a flex head craftsman I loved. The flex handle conformed to my palm. You can find previous models of Snap Ons cheap. Budget $30.<O</O

-The big stuff
For suspension work, get yourself a set of cheap impact sockets. Look for brands like Sunnex or Grey Pneumatic, but don’t turn your nose up at HF. Impacts are designed to be softer than chrome so they don’t explode when used with a gun. As such, they are prone to wearing out. Only buy new and figure you will replace or upgrade as you go. Budget $50.

Couple these with a long ratchet like the Snap On SHLF80. This thing is a DIYer’s best friend. At 26 inches long, with a fine toothed ratchet, and over 700ftlbs of capability, this is a ratchet that functions like a breaker that you can trust isn’t going to let go. Fine tooth ratcheting makes a bigger difference on long ratchets. When you are pulling hard, you can put that ratchet in your strength sweet spot. These are super expensive, but cheaper than an impact gun. If you have an impact gun in your plan, skip this or buy a cheaper model elsewhere. I bought mine here on GJ for $120. I use it all the time and love it. Long ratchets make the job easier.<O</O

Extensions: Get a few "silver bullets"
Only a couple things you need to know about extensions; 1) Not every makers’ extensions fit every other makers’ sockets. Ideally these two components should fit together with no rattle. If you can try before you buy, do that. Otherwise, I have found cheap extensions to be acceptable in the shorter lengths.

Its really nice to have a few “silver bullet” extensions; I highly recommend set of wobbles but wouldn’t pay loads for them ($40) as they are not high strength tools. Pick up a few long extensions (11” and over). These can be back and knuckle savers, but their long lengths are like springs. sp choose a truck tool brand for these. Budget $100 for extensions.

Wrenches: Skip Old-School Tools<O</O
At this point in automotive history, I would not rush out to purchase combination wrenches. These are old school, typically too short and with open ends that don’t cut it on hard to reach or really stuck fasteners. Instead, start your wrench set with the tools most mechanics reach for first; a set of high performance Snap On wrenches. These are long, strong, with tight fitting, very thin box ends. They can access fasteners other wrenches can't and offer greater leverage to crack stuff free. Choose the 15 degree set first. You can find them for about $100 on ebay in good condition or better.

Once a screw is cracked free, a ratcheting box wrench will make quick work of it in spots a socket wrench can’t easily access. I would get a set of these, possibly flex head models, but only if cheap. If you don’t use these to crack loose or snug up bolts, you can get away with cheaper brands. Budget $150 for wrenches.<O</O
<O</O

Screwdrivers: We all have 'em, but not always the one we need.
The trick with screwdrivers is having the right length and the right, good condition, high quality tip. Most of us will gravitate toward screwdrivers we have or strike our fancy. There’s nothing wrong with that. But if you want to be smart about it, choose a ratcheting screwdriver system that accepts different length shanks. Couple with high quality bits and replace them as needed when worn. The specialty Snap On ACR bits, and Wiha/Wera diamond tipped bits really work on phillips head screws.

My favorite is the Snap On soft grip stubby, especially when paired with the optional 9” shank. Budget $75 for a second hand Snap On, a selection of bits and an extra shank. <O</OAdd another $25 for a couple extra screwdrivers you will need like a large #3 phillips for brake discs, and a big flat head you will inevitably use as a pry bar.
<O</O

Pliers: Don't overdo it<O</O
I love tools so I have nice pliers, but I don’t really need the world's best pliers. I find my HF long needle nose the most useful just for picking up parts I dropped. The basic set from Snap On is very nice and very useful. Special deals and sales can bring these under $100. But you can do way better. A set of Knipex cobras or a comparable set of channel locks are helpful for hose clamps and other misc jobs. My favorite pliers are duck bills. Their slim jaws and super twisting ability let me grab twist, fold wires, sheet metal, you name it. I would start with cobras, duck bill or needle nose and some sort of cutter and go from there.
<O</O

Specialty tools: make life easier
At this point my math puts us under $800 and we’ve made virtually no compromises in tool quality, just narrowed the selection to those tools which are most important and spent more money for better tools where you can reap bigger benefits. If you had $1000 budgeted for tools, you now have $200 to spend on specialty items on an as needed basis.

Specialty tools really make the job easier. Here are a couple items you may need: Etorx socket set, torx and allen bit sockets (Snap On highly recommended), “flare nut” (line) wrenches (Snap On), 1/4" sockets, deep or mid depth versions of all sockets above.

Here are some "why didn't I buy this before" tools: brake bleeder wrenches, mityvac brake bleeder, drum brake tools, hose clamp pliers, pry bars, panel poppers, swivel sockets, test light, led head lamp, magnetic parts dishes.<O

Conclusion:</O
In my opinion, the tools above would be capable of performing 90% of the tasks a DIYer would most likely attempt.

Above all, I would say having an impact gun greatly increased my ability to tackle a tough jobs. I think I would call it an essential tool for automotive repair. I think I would go so far to say that if you thought you could get an impact on every fastener, you could get away with cheap sockets and ratchets. Unfortunately, that's never the case. In fact, I typically find the one screw I can't reach with the gun is the one that's completely frozen solid. That's the reason for the good sockets, ratchets and wrenches.

Excellent and outstanding response for a recommendation.