Craftsman....Blah....

[pipsters]

However, when I pick up a Craftsman socket from 1980 and then compare it to the exact same size/drive Craftsman socket from 2010, there's a difference. The older ones are a little better. They're thicker, the finish seems to be more durable, and I don't particularly care for "laser etching."

There was a guy on here who used a caliper on the old vs. new, found the new ones were actually a little thicker overall and at the walls. The finish, that is a result of the EPA unfortunately. As far as laser finish, that is a personal preference and after using my new laser etched sockets I have to say I much prefer it.

 

[tooth]

I used to have craftsman tools, the only thing left are my raised panel wrenches for when I need a second wrench.

The sockets were ok but I got tired of chipping chrome.

The ratchets have all been complete ****. They always reversed while ratcheting and didn't feel anywhere as smooth as a quality rathet.

 

[Aberdale]

I'll agree that Craftsman has slipped dramatically since the 90's. I wouldn't give up my old Craftsman stuff - I like it. I'll still buy their stuff now, but based on sale prices more so than desire.

Someone in Sears management should look back to those days 15-20 years ago and strive to revive the brand.

That sounds like a good idea. But to get the same quality as 15-20 years ago, we probably would be complaining about the price. After all, the price of raw materials and energy continue to go up. Sears tool suppliers have likely changed the tool design, material specs, and process over the years to cut corners to hold the prices down.

A good example is their new professional ratchets. We all complained about the poor quality of the RP ratchets and Sears responded by making a professional quality ratchet. Almost everyone that comments on them praises the design and quality, but complains that the price is too high. I'm not sure how they're selling, but I would be surprised if they're selling at enough volume to keep them from disappearing in a couple years.

Same with the professional polished wrenches that are NLA.

"You get what you pay for", comes to mind. I'm sure that Sears product planners and marketing staff look at this very closely. They choose to offer products where they can maximize turn at the shelf and drive profits. Unfortunately, there are more customers that are willing to sacrifice quality for a low price than to pay more for a quality product that will truly last a lifetime.

You admit it yourself in your third sentence, "I'll still buy their stuff now, but based on sale prices more so than desire." If I were a product planner at Sears, I would say Hmmmmm, sounds like our customers buy on price vs. quality, so that's what we'll give them.

 

[SMKS]

The finish, that is a result of the EPA unfortunately.

Actually, I think it's a cost-cutting move on Sears' part. Regulations may make chrome plating more expensive than it used to be, but plenty of companies still do quality chrome plating in the US.

Are you saying Snap-On's chrome isn't done in the US? I think we all know it is.

 

[kxxr]

I hope you don't feel that any of my posts on this topic have been "incredibly negative." I think I've been incredibly objective. I still like my Craftsman tools a lot. As I said earlier, I have no intentions of swapping them out for something better. The Craftsman tools I have are a little older, and I think they're pretty damn good. However, when I pick up a Craftsman socket from 1980 and then compare it to the exact same size/drive Craftsman socket from 2010, there's a difference. The older ones are a little better. They're thicker, the finish seems to be more durable, and I don't particularly care for "laser etching." Sockets are just one example. I just think that the overall quality of Craftsman tools has gradually declined in the past 10 to 12 years. It's just my observation after using Craftsman hand tools almost exclusively during the past 30+ years.

As for having a sad life...... Hardly. I have a great family, job, and home. I'm also lucky enough to have a few "toys" that receive constant tinkering, and maintenance from my older, well used but not abused, Craftsman tools.

Jim C.

Jim C., just to clarify ... the comment made by Gpgpt was directed to VWandDodge .... thought you might like to know

 

[timesrgood?]

I wouldn't call the CM raised panel tools made in USA "poor." I think they are as good or better than my old ones, seems to me nostalgia is kicking in a lot. I always thought companies bragged on how thin their socket walls were, not how thick. As for accuracy, it doesn't seem logical they have sets of broaches, at Armstrong or whatever USA company makes them, that are ****, and then they use the good broaches for the higher lines. They use the same broaches I would bet.

I'm just happy Sears is one of the few USA companies able to compete with the imports . Actually they exceed the imports in value because of their real warranty.

 

[AZ_Catskinner]

That sounds like a good idea. But to get the same quality as 15-20 years ago, we probably would be complaining about the price. After all, the price of raw materials and energy continue to go up. Sears tool suppliers have likely changed the tool design, material specs, and process over the years to cut corners to hold the prices down.

A good example is their new professional ratchets. We all complained about the poor quality of the RP ratchets and Sears responded by making a professional quality ratchet. Almost everyone that comments on them praises the design and quality, but complains that the price is too high. I'm not sure how they're selling, but I would be surprised if they're selling at enough volume to keep them from disappearing in a couple years.

Same with the professional polished wrenches that are NLA.

"You get what you pay for", comes to mind. I'm sure that Sears product planners and marketing staff look at this very closely. They choose to offer products where they can maximize turn at the shelf and drive profits. Unfortunately, there are more customers that are willing to sacrifice quality for a low price than to pay more for a quality product that will truly last a lifetime.

You admit it yourself in your third sentence, "I'll still buy their stuff now, but based on sale prices more so than desire." If I were a product planner at Sears, I would say Hmmmmm, sounds like our customers buy on price vs. quality, so that's what we'll give them.

Quality control shouldn't have much negative effect on pricing, and that is where Sears slipped us (the public) the weenie. Look at a RP ratchet from 1990 as compared to one from 2010. There's no excuse for plastic selectors, gearing made from Old Milwaukee cans and halfassed finishing. Or look at the RP wrenches - does it really cost that much more to check the sizes before shipping them out? I won't comment on the socket chroming, since Danaher chroming has pretty much sucked across the board for years.

Sears has done away with some of the better tools and focused more on the gimmicky/"buy dad a crappy gift that he'll never use" market. I hate sounding sexist here, but it's female marketing at it's finest. Trendy gimmicks and cutesy names take precedence over simple dependability and quality. Look at the "Blue Crew" nonsense they've got now - "experts" defined by nothing more than a polo shirt.

 

[pipsters]

Actually, I think it's a cost-cutting move on Sears' part. Regulations may make chrome plating more expensive than it used to be, but plenty of companies still do quality chrome plating in the US.

Are you saying Snap-On's chrome isn't done in the US? I think we all know it is.

Well to be fair, I bought a whole bunch of sockets from Sears, brand new, for $1.0x per socket. How much per Snap-On socket even when bought in a set, brand new, from the manufacturer? Cost cutting maybe, but I sure as hell won't pay Snap-On prices. No way no how.

 

[timesrgood?]

The wrench ends and sockets aren't machined each one by hand, they are stamped out by dies during the hot forging process. Or am I wrong about that? I have several varieties of Craftsman ratchets, bought by me new personally from the 60's till now. When I am looking at the older v series, it isn't really any better than a modern raised panel, one v I have the chrome is all peeling from the handle. I can't see it is better no matter how hard I try. Has anyone here sawn on the ratchet selector to see if it is "plastic?" I see some that look like plastic but they are metal painted black. Some composites, if it is one, are as strong as a pot metal lever anyway. Has anyone broke their alleged plastic selector in normal use, not trying to break it to prove a point? If it does, a drive to Sears will get another.

Actually when I am looking at my newish RP right now, they look of better finish and quality than the older ones from the days of yore. To me, they look really good. I have a feeling nostalgia makes a lot of the difference about this.

 

[billymade]

The levers were originally metal; copper/brass with a black coating on them, then they went to plastic! I personally, have had customers shear the plastic lever off in a first use situation; needless to say they were pissed (they let me know, too)! The ratchets machining and internals are just inferior to the earlier versions; having rebuilt them and exchanged literally hundreds, if not thousands of them myself... it is IMHO, undeniable they are of less quality, then they once were. Everyone has their own opinion but after exchanging these things, daily for 7 years... its just blatantly obvious they went down in quality. if you like your current raised panels; fine, I would ask you to look at a older one and see the difference.
At this point; there are so many other options out there... you should take a look at the options, I love getting used... professional grade USA made tools for cheap!
To each his own....

 

[chevy_cowboy]

RP ratchets do the job ok, but with the thin profile 60t and the premium 84t ratchets available I dunno why anyone would want to use the RP anymore.

IMO anyone that complains about the price being slightly higher on these hasn't actually tried one.

 

[DirtyRat]

Craftsman not Blah....

I've read through pretty much all of this post, and won't respond to any one particular claim, but will simply give my Craftsman $.02.

I bought my first Craftsman tools around 99 or 00, right before I graduated high school. Probably in 2000, but I got your big ol 250 piece set which gave me the ratchets, sockets, and wrenches I still use today. I've filled out most of my tool box since then with roughly 90% Craftsman stuff. Pliers, prybars, extensions, air tools, etc, almost all Craftsman.

I started working in a professional auto repair career in 03, and have used this tool set since then. I chose Craftsman for it's value, which from my perspective was the best. I saw and used Mac and SnapOn tools in the auto college I attended, and I saw the prices, even the quote 'student prices' they offered college kids. My Craftsman wrenches took loose the same bolts that a SnapOn wrench would, but at a mere fraction of the cost.

As far as tool reliability, I can count on one hand the number of Craftsman tools I've needed to replace, and I'll admit a few times I simply asked too much of tools. I'm hard on my tools, they're not pretty, and I treat them as such. But I'm not looking for a showroom quality finish, merely that they do the job that I am paid to do, and I can say they've pleased me so far.

I will respond to several comments about chipped chrome off sockets, I've never had this happen, but I did buy my sockets in about 2000. They weren't they fancy laser etched version then.

And I did just this year replace my original 1/2" impact wrench with a CM Professional (IR) impact. Although my original budget CM impact I bought in 03 was still ripping stuff apart, it was sounding odd. I gave 70 bucks for it back then (probably got 10% off even as they still had the Craftsman Club deals), and through 8 years of speeding up my job, I got my money's worth.

All in all, I'm very pleased with what I paid for my tools, and they job they've served. I've recently seen on this form the MechanicNamedJohn fellow's stash of HF stuff, and I'm impressed. If there were a local HF I'd probably check them out.

Not sure the origin of all my tools (I believe the core stuff, raised panel wrenches, ratchets, and sockets are USA) but as far as I'm concerned if it does what I ask of it, I'm pleased. And in almost all cases, I've been pleased. As far as Snap On being superior (the favorite by many in my area), in almost any case where Craftsman sells the same tool, I'd buy two Craftsman before I bought one Snappy. Keep one at work, one at home, have a spare either way should one break, but in my 8 years of fixing cars, that doesn't happen very often. I'd probably have money left over to buy myself lunch too, two tools and a fed belly, thank you Craftsman.

 

[treasureseeker]

Sears use to have two brands of tools Craftsman and something not as good and many times the other brand was an import. I believe the other brand was once Dunlap. Now there is no clear distinction as to what tools Sears sells that are high quality. I did find something made in the USA the last time I was there and on the back a good size advertisement bringing attention to that fact.

 

[Aberdale]

Quality control shouldn't have much negative effect on pricing, and that is where Sears slipped us (the public) the weenie. Look at a RP ratchet from 1990 as compared to one from 2010. There's no excuse for plastic selectors, gearing made from Old Milwaukee cans and halfassed finishing. Or look at the RP wrenches - does it really cost that much more to check the sizes before shipping them out? I won't comment on the socket chroming, since Danaher chroming has pretty much sucked across the board for years.

Sears has done away with some of the better tools and focused more on the gimmicky/"buy dad a crappy gift that he'll never use" market. I hate sounding sexist here, but it's female marketing at it's finest. Trendy gimmicks and cutesy names take precedence over simple dependability and quality. Look at the "Blue Crew" nonsense they've got now - "experts" defined by nothing more than a polo shirt.

Your examples reinforce my point. Plastic selectors are less expensive to manufacture than cast metal. Softer gears are less expensive to manufacture than hardened gears. And no, it doesn't cost more to check the size of a RP wrench, but it does cost more if it's rejected and has to be melted down and made over again, so if Danaher relaxed the tolerances for acceptance, then more wrenches can be made per shift, reducing cost. All of these measures reduce the manufacturing cost of the product to keep from raising prices as material costs and energy costs rise.

I agree with you totally on Sears crappy/gimmicky marketing. It doesn't appeal to me either. But it sells product for them and makes them money. Sears can only sell so many basic wrenches, screwdrivers, and pliers with a lifetime warranty. Eventually the world will be filled with them, and no one will buy another because they can replace their current one under the lifetime warranty. How then, can Sears drive more sales? By offering new, different, and many times, gimmicky products that are different than what the customer already owns. I've bought a few of these myself. But after realizing they are ****, I'm rarely interested in the gimmicks anymore.

I would prefer that Sears drop all the gimmicky stuff and concentrate on a complete tool line that's a step above Craftsman. It won't happen, because not enough Sears shoppers would pay the price for a quality tool. Everyone, including myself, is conditioned to buy on price at Sears, and most of the time, will only buy the item when it's on sale.

 

[JohnFreeman]

There's one place to buy cheap Chinese tools Harbor Freight.

I'll never knowingly reward a US manufacturer with my business on Chinese **** tools.

 

[diesel research]

Why is it that it always ends up a cman vs snap on debate?

First set I bought as a kid was a kmart "benchtop" set. I later bought the 254pc cman set on a whim when I didn't h\ave the benchtop stuff around. Truth be told, I would rather have the benchtop set.

Even as a kid I always remember my dad saying "proto this, proto that". Come to think of it, I think he used to talk about bonney and armstrong. He seemed fond of OLD mac stuff, but admitted it was out of his price range.


It seems a majority of cman owners are under some impression that only 2 "usa" tool companies exist. Yes, the tool truck is often quite a bit more expensive than sears.

There are quite a few "middle of the road" options, not just bottom of the barrel or top of the line...

 

[Michael Bryce Winnick]

I just fell for this for the first time.

I get really pissed off on this site when the hoidy toidy looks down on Craftsman which for my entire life has been the best American made tool for the American made working guy. I still feel that way. However; last month I bought my better half's grandkids a set of dog bone wrenches. The older one gets sae, the younger one gets metric. The older kid is 14 months, the younger kid was born April 27, 2011. It is my goal for these kids to have a full set of tools before thay can ask to borrow mine. I have their initials engraved on every tool I get them as well as the toolbox.

With that being said, I did not know the dogbone wrench was made in China until I gave it to the kid in the hospital nursery with his name and date of birth engraved on it. The older kid got his 3/8 drive socket that way. All tools from that point forward have engraved initials only.

I will always look to Craftsman first, but before I pay for anything I will look to COO.

 

[DirtyRat]

Why is it that it always ends up a cman vs snap on debate?

The reason I compared to Snappy is that's really the only competition locally. Lowes may have the next closest variety. The local Kmart sells Craftsman anyway, and not a very large selection. We have a Cornwell dealer too, but apart from his OTC/Lisle stuff, I find their prices too close to Snappy (or maybe simply too rich for my blood). And if the prices is similar I'd wager at least 9 out of 10 guys go with Snappy.

So apart from mail order, in which you can't even feel the tool before you buy it, around here you buy off a tool truck, out of Lowes, or Sears.

 

[diesel research]

I just fell for this for the first time.

I get really pissed off on this site when the hoidy toidy looks down on Craftsman which for my entire life has been the best American made tool for the American made working guy.

Sounds kind of "hoidy toidy" doesn't it?

I think I am an american made working guy. Just getting off my 12hr grave yard shift on a weekend....

So if I didn't use craftsman, I'm not using the best? Last night the tools I used were milwaukee, snapon, ingersol rand, horror freight, thorsen, armstrong, vermont american, victor, SK, sunex, and a few others. Didn't use any craftsmen though. They just didn't fit the needs or desires.

There are a lot more tools out there than just sockets and combination wrenches, and cman certainly cannot be the best at everything.

_____________________

As far as putting hands on, I can appreciate that philosophy. BUT with any amount of experience you end up encountering quite a few brands of tools, be it your friends, your coworkers, employer provided tools, those of other tradesmen (like the plumber or electrician who visits your home) not to mention second hand such as flea markets/auctions/garage sales/ect ect. Of course there are also the "professional" retailers who cater to tradesmen/industrial such as grainger/local electrical house/MSC/ect ect.



Of course, I often just gamble and try things out sight unseen. Especially with modern internet being so convenient for researching. Never used/saw first hand, the armstrong maxx locking flex ratchets. At ~$140 for 2, it seemed to be quite a gamble, but my research showed great satisfaction. I pulled the trigger 2 weeks ago and must say, I am very satisfied.

Cman doesn't even carry such a variety of tools I want or need....

 

[bob ny]

All you guys that are giving up on craftsman. wnen you replace your old craftsman please post on here the tools you are getting rid of and see how long they stay not sold bob w.

 

[timesrgood?]

The levers were originally metal; copper/brass with a black coating on them, then they went to plastic! I personally, have had customers shear the plastic lever off in a first use situation; needless to say they were pissed (they let me know, too)! The ratchets machining and internals are just inferior to the earlier versions; having rebuilt them and exchanged literally hundreds, if not thousands of them myself... it is IMHO, undeniable they are of less quality, then they once were. Everyone has their own opinion but after exchanging these things, daily for 7 years... its just blatantly obvious they went down in quality. if you like your current raised panels; fine, I would ask you to look at a older one and see the difference.
At this point; there are so many other options out there... you should take a look at the options, I love getting used... professional grade USA made tools for cheap!
To each his own....

Thank you, I probably don't have the very latest raised panel ones. Not likely I will ever buy any as I have been buying ratchets on ebay and need to stop that. Suddenly I have about 20 ratchets of all sizes including 1" that I will likely not use much.

I got recently a Husky 1/4 " ratchet on ebay, for 2.99 plus $2.08 shipping, actually I got it for less. He says they are made in Taiwan but the ones they sent are made in USA. I suppose they were the last of the old USA made stock.