Craftsman COO more Taiwan than China now?

[cdeer001]

(This is NOT intended to be a Sears/Craftsman bashing thread, really.)

I was at Sears today looking to see if there was anything USA-ish to pick up and noticed that a lot more of the tools are now saying Made in Taiwan rather than Made in China.

is it possible that Sears is moving toward Taiwan rather than China? Better quality? Less anti-China?

Chris

 

[Skin]

You're not really making sense. Taiwan has better quality products than China yet you phrase it like its a bad thing. They arent remotely the same place. Completely different countries and much better quality standards and pay. Good quality tools have been coming out of Taiwan for well over a decade so manufacturing there isn't a new idea. And this is a bash thread even if that's not your intent. Cant go a week without half a dozen Craftsman *****, Sears is going out of business, what happened to our economy etc etc.. on GJ.

 

[DSLTRK]

I hear ya, ***** CM went overseas. But it's not like all their tool line is imported. You can see/buy the whole lineup made in the states under the "Craftsman Industrial" brand.


And Taiwan is a country that largely produces quality products, especially tools. As much as I hate to admit it, the finish and plating of the Taiwan Craftsman thin profile ratchets is superior to the US made counterparts.

 

[woody 73]

Don't get me wrong I love most of the posts on the GJ...but alas after some time some of these posts get rather old.

Would you guys be interested in seeing a Borg **** probe used by the Borg Queen on Cardassians & Romulans bad guys or read more of these great Sears posts??? Hey that sounds like a good poll that I need to work on!

Anyhow if you want to see a Borg probe in action (not that any of you guys are interested in it) head on over to the vintage tool section and read about a Heller tool in action.

Who knows maybe you guys will learn something. You bad guys better not mess with old Woody...or you will get the old probe in you know where.

 

[Renchi]

Strange thread...

The quality of some of my made in Taiwan tools (like sockets, for example) is significantly better than the quality of some of my made in USA tools. Regardless of how I feel about that, I have never seen any made in China tools that come even remotely close to the quality of made in Taiwan or made in USA tools.

 

[PugetDude]

(This is NOT intended to be a Sears/Craftsman bashing thread, really.)

Right....

 

[cdeer001]

Ok, I edited the original post to better say what I meant to say the first time. LOL

Basically: Is it possible that Sears is moving toward Taiwan rather than China for improved quality and less anti-China?

Chris

 

[Renchi]

Ok, I edited the original post to better say what I meant to say the first time. LOL

Basically: Is it possible that Sears is moving toward Taiwan rather than China for improved quality and less anti-China?

Chris

Not likely...

 

[otis66]

I stop buying Craftsman tools when they stop being made in the USA. I'm not going to buy any Craftsman tools not made in the USA. I have not been to a Sears store for a few years now.

 

[jcfields]

.

 

[drink]

As far as being tired of reading about the same old thing goes I would have to say how much I enjoy being among people who enjoy discussing tools. I think it is simply free speech to discuss what you want. If you don't like the discussion you can simply join another discussion if you want. Personally I find Craftsman tools interesting to discuss especially since I own some of them.

Now, many years ago when things at Craftsman were being sent offshore to be made I stumbled across a computer database that had a global tool manufacturer's tools listed with the group they came from. They had a bunch of tools that were being made in the Asia Group. Danaher was the mfg then. From the way it looked the Asia Group was possibly China, Taiwan, and some other countries. However, if you take the time to read about Apex Tool Group you will learn more about where they are located worldwide. Here's a couple of things to read about Apex. Read abut David Ling and the global locations.

http://www.apextoolgroup.com/management/56#1

http://www.apextoolgroup.com/offices

 

[jjjrmx5]

Uhhh, not from what I saw on Black Friday or the Wednesday before Xmas. Still mainly Chinese. Hell, , they changed the handle profile of the slim line C'man ratchet so it is MORE chunky now. Gah.

EDIT:Oh, but the old Made in France cable hose clamp pliers by C'man are now made in Taiwan, so you do get a win for that. My bad.

 

[drink]

Maybe the socket extensions are made in Taiwan.

 

[fordgasm]

if they are its one step closer to the USA

 

[cdeer001]

Oh, but the old Made in France cable hose clamp pliers by C'man are now made in Taiwan, so you do get a win for that. My bad.

I was actually in the specialty tool section with the brake tools, snap ring pliers, trim removal tools, hose clamp pliers, pressure testers, etc. This is where I noticed it.

Chris

 

[AmishFury]

Maybe the socket extensions are made in Taiwan.

my local sears it's a mix... some of the individual extensions were taiwan but the socket accessory sets with extensions, swivel, and adapters are all china

now one taiwan item that surprised me a little was the oil filter wrench (the metal band type)... totally expected it to say china

 

[stihlntime]

What is sad that after making numerous trips to both Taiwan and China and visiting all different types of mfg facilities imho the mainland Chinese are as capable of duplicating any level of hand tool quality in the world. The problem is it will cost about the same as anywhere else as there isn't a huge amount of labor savings due to the level of automation. Every retailer runs to China and the first question they ask is how low of a cost can we get on x, not a word about quality. Mercedes,Cummins and others have parts made in China because they pay for it and they are beating Union labor and the EPA. Don't be so naive to think just because it says made in Taiwan that it is actually made there.In the far east a lot of shell games are played its called trans shipping, I've known companies with coo's on product saying Taiwan when it was actually being made in Vietnam.

 

[rednotch]

I was actually in the specialty tool section with the brake tools, snap ring pliers, trim removal tools, hose clamp pliers, pressure testers, etc. This is where I noticed it.

Chris

Those are just rebadged gearwrench tools pretty much that they changed out a few months ago, Only the auto specialty tools, rest of the basic stuff is china still.

 

[anndel]

Taiwan manufactures way better stuff than china. Their manufacturing process to quality control is impeccable. Taiwan is an independent country, not part of china though Taiwan sometimes call themselves Republic of China. Don't confuse them with the People's Republic of China which is communist china or red china where most of the crappy tools come from.

 

[mjoekingz28]

I want some Hencho in Mexico tools!

Does Mexico not have the steel supply we the US have...and Germany....and China....and India....and Japan....and Taiwan???

 

[shoggoth80]

mjoekingz28... Urrea. If you want Mexican made tools (I don't see an issue with this), Urrea is the one brand that I can think of that fits that bill. Seems a lot of their stuff is made after old Proto designs (also not a bad thing). Got a buddy that has some of their stuff, it does what he asks of it, and then some.

More on topic. If Cman is in fact going more towards Taiwan as a middle ground between cost/price/quality, more power to them. I have lots of Taiwanese stuff in my mix. It's really good stuff for the cost. My Chinese Cman sockets annoyed me when I used them last. Kept falling off my extensions. They look nice, and the chrome looks good... but I would almost always opt for Taiwanese over Chinese. Perhaps Sears is letting a lot of the general opinion sink in? I'm picky about function, not so much where it comes from. I've had plenty of good experiences with American, EU, and Taiwanese made stuff. I certainly won't turn my nose up at Taiwanese ratchets, and sockets.

 

[volunteers]

Taiwan manufactures way better stuff than china. Their manufacturing process to quality control is impeccable. Taiwan is an independent country, not part of china though Taiwan sometimes call themselves Republic of China. Don't confuse them with the People's Republic of China which is communist china or red china where most of the crappy tools come from.

Taiwan is part of china, same culture, same language.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[AA/FC]

is it possible that Sears is moving toward Taiwan rather than China? Better quality? Less anti-China?

Chris

Who cares..... either way, the majority of their tools are not produced in the USA like they should be. Taiwan tools might be slightly better than Chinese but neither of them are BETTER than the old USA Craftsman. Not to mention, they don't help the American worker or US economy either. Please don't make any excuses for Sears. They've made a bunch of decisions over the last few decades and now they can live with the consequences.

 

[alfazer]

What is sad that after making numerous trips to both Taiwan and China and visiting all different types of mfg facilities imho the mainland Chinese are as capable of duplicating any level of hand tool quality in the world. The problem is it will cost about the same as anywhere else as there isn't a huge amount of labor savings due to the level of automation. Every retailer runs to China and the first question they ask is how low of a cost can we get on x, not a word about quality. Mercedes,Cummins and others have parts made in China because they pay for it and they are beating Union labor and the EPA. Don't be so naive to think just because it says made in Taiwan that it is actually made there.In the far east a lot of shell games are played its called trans shipping, I've known companies with coo's on product saying Taiwan when it was actually being made in Vietnam.

This.^^

 

[Sanny81]

About a year ago I saw the made in Taiwan snap ring pliers in the local Kmart. I thought it was odd since Sears at the time was still selling the red handled USA version. Then about two months ago I saw Sears switched to the Taiwan ones too.

 

[Tinner]

Taiwan is part of china, same culture, same language.

Kinda, sorta part of China, research the politics.

Taiwan is leaps and bounds ahead of mainland China in all areas of manufacturing. Specifically, relating to tools, forging, heat treating and machining, to name a few. Additionally, wages in Taiwan are much higher. In some skilled and semi skilled jobs, close to the US.

 

[1982fxr]

Taiwan is part of china, same culture, same language.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ummm...ummmm....

 

[kythri]

Urrea is the one brand that I can think of that fits that bill. Seems a lot of their stuff is made after old Proto designs (also not a bad thing).

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28985

 

[Davefr]

What is sad that after making numerous trips to both Taiwan and China and visiting all different types of mfg facilities imho the mainland Chinese are as capable of duplicating any level of hand tool quality in the world. The problem is it will cost about the same as anywhere else as there isn't a huge amount of labor savings due to the level of automation. Every retailer runs to China and the first question they ask is how low of a cost can we get on x, not a word about quality.

^^^Absolutely.

I agree that Chinese manufacturing is capable of producing any quality level that their customers are willing to pay for. But the overwhelming reason that you outsource is to obtain the lowest possible cost structure with a quality level that's "just good enough".

 

[Renchi]

Taiwan is part of china, same culture, same language.

 

[Skin]

Taiwan is part of china, same culture, same language.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Unless you're the Chinese government who doesn't recognize Taiwanese independence, you're wrong in them being a part of China. Different governments, independent population (most of whom do not view themselves as Chinese), different currency (which they mint themselves), different countries. We, the US, do recognize their independence and as a result have very healthy trade relations and sell them all kinds of military hardware. The only reason they still call themselves "Republic of China" instead of just claiming independence and sticking to Taiwan is to prevent a war.

 

[AmishFury]

I want some Hencho in Mexico tools!

Does Mexico not have the steel supply we the US have...and Germany....and China....and India....and Japan....and Taiwan???

urrea is made in mexico with US steel...

 

[Loscaldazar]

Unless you're the Chinese government who doesn't recognizer Taiwanese independence, you're wrong in them being a part of China. Different governments, independent population (most of whom do not view themselves as Chinese), different currency (which they mint themselves), different countries. We, the US, do recognize their independence and as a result have very healthy trade relations and sell them all kinds of military hardware. The only reason they still call themselves "Republic of China" instead of just claiming independence and sticking to Taiwan is to prevent a war.

It's even more complicated than that. During the cultural revolution in China (aka the communist revolution where over 30 million Chinese died), the non communist parts of the government/remnants of the old government fled to Taiwan to continue running a democratic government. It's a sore spot for the Communist Chinese government that essentially their enemies are running a country right next to them and they can't do much about it without most of Europe and the US responding. Numerous other Chinese dissidents flee to Taiwan when the Chinese government starts hunting them down too. Basically everyone from China that China hates winds up in Taiwan. Quite the sore spot.

 

[Skin]

It's even more complicated than that. During the cultural revolution in China (aka the communist revolution where over 30 million Chinese died), the non communist parts of the government/remnants of the old government fled to Taiwan to continue running a democratic government. It's a sore spot for the Communist Chinese government that essentially their enemies are running a country right next to them and they can't do much about it without most of Europe and the US responding. Numerous other Chinese dissidents flee to Taiwan when the Chinese government starts hunting them down too. Basically everyone from China that China hates winds up in Taiwan. Quite the sore spot.

I don't think the US or EU would do anything if China invaded to be honest. Maybe some sanctions but we see how well those work in the short term plus most of the world depends on China's resources as opposed to the other way around. I think the real deterrent is backlash from their own people.

 

[shoggoth80]

"Who cares..... either way, the majority of their tools are not produced in the USA like they should be. Taiwan tools might be slightly better than Chinese but neither of them are BETTER than the old USA Craftsman."

-I'm not so sure about this. I've yet to break a Taiwanese socket. I've broken Cman USA sockets. I've broken Taiwanese ratchets...but the situation would be considered abuse of the tool, by anyone who had witnessed it. I've seen USA Cman stripped out. There was an article in a 4x4 mag where ratchets were compared. The Cman stuff didn't fare too well by comparison if memory serves right. There are destructive, and non destructive tests on youtube of Taiwanese, and *gasp* HF at that, where the tools are holding up to torque beyond what regular use would put on them.

There was destructive data linked in a post here on GJ that showed at what level of force various tools sheared/failed. One brand I recall seeing on there, at the top (for wrenches I believe) was Deen... made in Taiwan. The difficulty here is comparing older used USA to new manufactured Taiwan. I don't know how many use cycles my Cman sockets had seen, nor (for a recent example) how many uses my Snap On 1/2 to 3.8 adapter had seen... but the square sure sheared right off.

Companies haven't moved stuff overseas due to a lack of skill here in the US, or available resources or labor. They've moved offshore because margins. People buy foreign made tools because cost. Some of us try to buy at a balance between cost, value, quality, and warranty support. Some of that foreign made stuff is well supported, warranty wise. Some of us use these tools for a living, and refuse to go into debt to do it. It makes no sense to go broke trying to make a buck. Lol. If it doesn't break the bank, holds up well, and is easily warrantied if/when it fails...that tends to win most times.

 

[Gear Wolf]

Taiwan is part of china, same culture, same language.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wrong. Taiwan is an independent democracy, whereas China is a socialist regime.

I've been to both countries. It is a night and day difference.

 

[Gear Wolf]

All Craftsman USA production ceased in between late 2011 and very early 2012. The Taiwanese ratchets have been around since the late 1990s through to today, whereas the Chinese Craftsman products were emerging in the early 2000s.

If you'd like to learn about the USA Craftsman ratchets feel free to check out my video series on YouTube that is ongoing. I think I labeled it as Craftsman USA Ratchet History.

 

[shoggoth80]

Neat.

 

[stevenhs]

Wrong. Taiwan is an independent democracy, whereas China is a socialist regime.

Clearly you never been to either country

 

[drink]

Taiwan is part of china, same culture, same language.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I copied and pasted the following.

Taiwan is an island which has for all practical purposes been independent since 1950, but which China regards as a rebel region that must be reunited with the mainland - by force if necessary.

China has claimed sovereignty over Taiwan since the end of the Chinese civil war in 1949, when the defeated Nationalist government fled to the island as the Communists, under Mao Zedong, swept to power.

China insists that nations cannot have official relations with both China and Taiwan, with the result that Taiwan has formal diplomatic ties with only a few countries. The US is Taiwan's most important friend and protector.

Despite its diplomatic isolation, Taiwan has become one of Asia's big traders. It is considered to have achieved an economic miracle, becoming one of the world's top producers of computer technology.