Craftsman: Outsource fallout

[gregoryD857]

I have a lot of craftsman tools because they were the number one choice for DIY guys like myself. Now I'm stocking up on all the USA made items they have left on my wish list (with a little help from the Hot Deals section) and grabbing up filler pieces at flea markets and yard sales. I do buy some import tools (Gearwrench mainly) and from what I'm seeing the new Craftsman items don't share the same quality for the price point.

 

[BrokewrenchLS1]

Can't see buying anything there. I'm already pretty set on all of my hard-line stuff, so I'm mostly just picking up the power tools I don't have (table saw, router, jigsaw, etc) which wouldn't have been Craftsman in the first place. Building a small tool set for a buddy for Christmas, and it's 100% Kobalt.

The "new" local Sears is one of the small franchise places, and the people are friendly enough, but the tool selection is minimal (no 6-point sockets anywhere as an example), which means I can't really even replace a busted or peeling-chrome socket there. I think most of their sales are appliances, and lawn mowers.

 

[srmofo]

What's the point?

The box stores sell the Chinese **** at a cheaper price with the same warranty.

I also don't believe Sears is going too be around much longer with their spectacular failure of a website and shitacular customer service

 

[m151]

Already have most of what I need, may get some fill ins, but I bought
Most of my RPs back when I thought they where moving to Japan.
They learned there lesson then, but now it's too late.
A company like Wright could take advantage of this situation, if only a small portion of Craftsman buyers defect it could almost double their business.

 

[plinker]

Qoute from Davefr
CM was never really representative of USA tool prices. Price out SK, Armstrong, Wright and Proto and that is a more accurate representation of current USA tool pricing.

CM was somewhere in between China and USA pricing. However as they toggled from USA to China COO the value also toggled from good value to poor value.

Most of those focused on industrial sales, rather than retail. Thus, they were more expensive in retail outlets, because that wasn't their bread & butter, it wasn't really the market they were chasing. Look at anything at Grainger or MSC, it's always overpriced... if they were selling plain ol' USA Craftsman sockets, they'd probably start at $10+. Just my $0.02 on that.

I agree with Davefr on this. No one except for Allen (which is the same tool) were priced anywhere near what Sears charged for Craftsman tools

So you could not really find anything US made in at that price point which was more or less an higher end import price point. Napa, back a few years ago, sold the same tools as Allen/K-D and charged prices similar to what S-K & non truck brands sold them for.

Industrial suppliers always seem very inflated with their prices, I agree.


I was at Sears (small store) last week and didnt really see much except for some knee pads I needed, and they hade a Taiwan made spline socket set on sale for 10$ that I also bought for some reason.

I really dont look to buy much from Sears anymore, especially if I can get the same tool from the OEM (Wilde for example).
The warranty was never really conveinet for me.

 

[itguy08]

First time poster, long time lurker here....

My first set of hand tools was Craftsman in the 90's. Loved that they were US Made, competitively priced, and had a great warranty. Did many car repais with them and lost a bunch of stuff and bought a bunch of stiff over the years. 2 years ago after getting fed up with missing pieces I got another set and gave the old set to my Dad for use around the house. I liked Craftsman because again made in the USA and decently priced.

Being that I'm an DIY the cost for Snap On, MAC, etc is way out of my price range as I'll never use them as they were meant to beused. Now that Craftsman tools are made in China and still priced high what's the incentive to go there? I can buy good quality Made in China tools at Harbor Freight with a lifetime warranty and save serious amounts of cash. If I'm going to send my money to China anyway I may at least save some $$.

And it's a shame as I'm looking to flesh out my set of tools and will most likely shop Sears stores for Made in USA stuff. But once that's gone, Harbor Freight for me.

Sears is really killing Craftsman. I've got the Craftsman C3 tools and they are decent. But there are serious gaps in the tools and are not releasing new stuff at all. And some of the older stuff is not coming back (like the vac, stapler, sprayer, etc.). So I'm slowly replacing them with Milwaulee M12 and M18 tools as they break.

It is truly a shame as Sears used to be so much better and well run and I always get good service from appliances and tools. We bought our Samsung Fridge there, Kemmore washer and Kenmore dryer, freezer there and generally come back to Sears for appliances.

 

[KevinP]

Last thing I bought from Sears is socket organizers for my tool box. I did look at some of the Craftsman tools while I was there and they would work ok for the weekend wrencher. however, across the street from Sears is a Nothern Tool and their stuff looks good or better than the Sears stuff for less money (made in Taiwan). Right now I'm well stocked up on tools for my vehicles/ tractors/ engines/ motorcycle.

 

[Perrorojo]

I'll buy used. I'm not big on Retail anything anymore.

 

[PavelK313]

I actually like craftsman and will continue buying it.

People who are complaining about paying USA prices for Chinese tools are a joke. Have you looked at prices of USA made tools? If you dont mind paying USA prices for USA tools then buy higher grade Craftsman tools. Cheap craftsman ratchets are in fact made in either china or taiwan however if you look at more expensive options at sears then you will see that those ratchets are made in USA. All sockets are STILL made in the USA, pliers are made in the usa, some ratchets are made in the USA, what chinese tools are we all talking about? Craftsman IMHO is by far the best bang for your buck when it comes to USA made tools!

As a disclaimer I want to note that I use CM, SO, Wera, Witte, Matco, Armstrong, Knipex and honestly cant say that SO works better than CM for me. Yes, finish on my "expensive" tools is definitely nicer than on my CM tools but I cant say that that SO/Matco gets job done faster.

Plus you cant forget about Sears being open 10am-9pm for tool exchange and you dont have to wait for that tool truck to show up 6 days later.

USA made Craftsman 84 tooth 1/4" ratchet for $40
http://www.craftsman.com/craftsman-...sName=Ratchets&prdNo=1&blockNo=1&blockType=L1

... and here is Snap-on 72 tooth 1/4" ratchet for $73
http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item...roup_ID=682476&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog

 

[franzdom]

I walked right through there on Sunday, had to return some Land's End clothing. I didn't even stop in the tool department.

 

[4x4gearhead]

Im good with paying the same amount of money for these new poorly made offerings. It doesnt make sense to me so why should I continue to buy?

 

[03protege]

I will buy Chinese tools from time to time, like my Gearwrench. The thing is the Gearwrench was priced accordingly, Craftsman is charging a premium on imported goods just because of the name. I think that will wear off as the names value diminishes.

My reasons for not wanting to shop with Sears is there lack of customer service.

 

[itguy08]

All sockets are STILL made in the USA, pliers are made in the usa, some ratchets are made in the USA, what chinese tools are we all talking about? Craftsman IMHO is by far the best bang for your buck when it comes to USA made tools!

I thought I read here that they were moving them to China too and that new sockets are made in China now.

Plus you cant forget about Sears being open 10am-9pm for tool exchange and you dont have to wait for that tool truck to show up 6 days later.

Home Depot, Lowes, and Harbor Freight are all open similar hours and IIRC will warranty their tools there as well. All depends which is closer to your home or shop.

 

[PavelK313]

I thought I read here that they were moving them to China too and that new sockets are made in China now.

I actually went to sears yesterday to exchange few items (broken screwdrivers from banging on them with drill hammer and chipped chrome on the sockets from using them as a press spacer) and I was able to replace them with USA made tools.

Home Depot, Lowes, and Harbor Freight are all open similar hours and IIRC will warranty their tools there as well. All depends which is closer to your home or shop.

True! In my case I have all of those retailers around me, but choose to buy CM for the fact that they are made in USA and I prefer the feel of their tools.

 

[IngyHere]

Price skimming. Price your stuff high, then have "big" sales, where you're really just selling at the price it should be anyway.

With the move to China, I'd call it profiteering. They probably cut costs from a couple bucks to a few cents. (But, maybe not, considering future warranty replacements. Ahh, that's the operative word, "future." Short-term profits are all that matter in American business, right?!)

On another matter, for those of you who support Chinese tool sales ...

Doctors Against Forced Organ Harvesting

China's Laogai -- The prisoner slavery factory system used today in China. They talk about the Ports of Los Angeles and all the garbage shipped into this country.

Communism. Gotta love those Chinese tools.

 

[BrokewrenchLS1]

I actually went to sears yesterday to exchange few items (broken screwdrivers from banging on them with drill hammer and chipped chrome on the sockets from using them as a press spacer) and I was able to replace them with USA made tools.

Old stock. As that gets sold off, it'll get replaced with Chinese-made tools.

The biggest issue with the price? The Chinese-made tools are the exact same price as when the tools were made here in the US. That fact alone is enough to send my money to SK instead of Craftsman.

 

[PavelK313]

With the move to China, I'd call it profiteering. They probably cut costs from a couple bucks to a few cents. (But, maybe not, considering future warranty replacements. Ahh, that's the operative word, "future." Short-term profits are all that matter in American business, right?!)

On another matter, for those of you who support Chinese tool sales ...

Doctors Against Forced Organ Harvesting

China's Laogai -- The prisoner slavery factory system used today in China. They talk about the Ports of Los Angeles and all the garbage shipped into this country.

Communism. Gotta love those Chinese tools.

Where was the keyboard you typed this on made?

 

[zakmartin]

It's like quittin' crack, but I'm done with them. What they've done over the past couple of years represents everything that's wrong with corporate America.

 

[bdamico]

It's interesting how people have different perspectives. Several people here perceive it as some type of profiteering or attempt to maximize profit. Meanwhile, I see it as an attempt to stay competitive, relevant, and alive.

 

[Super Sport]

Old stock. As that gets sold off, it'll get replaced with Chinese-made tools.

The biggest issue with the price? The Chinese-made tools are the exact same price as when the tools were made here in the US. That fact alone is enough to send my money to SK instead of Craftsman.

Lowe's did the same thing. HD probably did too. People complained at the time, but now you see everybody buying them up for those "USA-made prices."

The way I see it, Sears was obviously not making much if any money on those USA-made tools. They had to keep retail prices at a certain level, while production costs continued to rise. Now their production costs are lower and they finally have a more competitive profit margin.

Outside of Harbor Freight, you really can't buy brand name tools for the same price as Craftsman (Chinese or not). HD and Lowe's sell their imported tools at pretty much the same price. Menard's USA-made stuff is slightly more expensive, and will probably be outsourced soon enough. USA brands like SK and Wright cost 2-3x as much. Everybody says that Craftsman are now China tools for USA prices. I'd sure as heck like to know where they are buying USA-made tools from. From what I see, Craftsman used to be USA tools for China prices. How long did we really expect it to last?

 

[Jim C.]

I may still go with Craftsman for certain things, as long as they're made in the USA. If not, then I'll pass. There's so many good used, made in the USA, Craftsman tools at flea markets, garage sales and on line, why would anyone go buy a new Craftsman tool that was made overseas? I guess some might, but I will not.

Jim C.


Idiot vvvvvvvv

 

[Armed Bear]

to be honest I never was a fan of Craftsman and when it comes to their lawnmowers and weed eaters, etc., I definitely wouldn't be caught dead with them because I only buy top of the line Toro lawn mowers for professional use. My Echo 755 leaf blower costed $420 and it's one of the most powerful blowers on the market. I laugh at my neighbor struggling to blow leafs with his Craftsman blower.

If you have a big wet pile of leafs thats been sitting adding up all winter it's impossible to move it with a little Crafstman toy.

I like thier USA wrenches and sockets, but if they're going to just start pushin china-man tools, I might as well go pick up some nice cheap Stanley tools or Kobalt.

 

[ajchien]

When I thought about getting new tool,

It used to be craftsman > HF > kobalt > husky for me.

With changes to craftsman, HF, and kobalt, it's now

Online SK > Online Genius/Sunex = Kobalt = HF > craftsman > husky

 

[IngyHere]

Where was the keyboard you typed this on made?

If I had a choice, and I don't, I'd buy from a place that supports human rights and promotes ownership, responsibility and quality. With tools -- for now -- we still have a choice.

 

[03protege]

I'd sure as heck like to know where they are buying USA-made tools from. From what I see, Craftsman used to be USA tools for China prices. How long did we really expect it to last?

I was buying them from Sears

Craftsman is typically less expensive than other USA brands but the quality is proportionally less. "You get what you pay for" is how the saying goes IIRC.

Also with that being said, for a shade tree DIY mechanic such as myself Craftsman quality is sufficient. I would bet that the quality of sockets would IMPROVE if/when they switch to overseas production.

Regardless I still like my hand tools to say USA, it has nothing to do with supporting unions or it being better quality (in Craftsmans case many non-USA tools are better). I just love my country and prefer when my tools are marked USA. It makes me much happier while working on my 100% Japanese made car

 

[Brandon_Lutz]

I've pretty much washed my hands of the Craftsman brand from here on out. I've been acquiring more and more Armstrong USA goodness and I will probably start getting more SK stuff as well.

 

[Jim C.]

to be honest I never was a fan of Craftsman and when it comes to their lawnmowers and weed eaters, etc., I definitely wouldn't be caught dead with them because I only buy top of the line Toro lawn mowers for professional use. My Echo 755 leaf blower costed $420 and it's one of the most powerful blowers on the market. I laugh at my neighbor struggling to blow leafs with his Craftsman blower.

If you have a big wet pile of leafs thats been sitting adding up all winter it's impossible to move it with a little Crafstman toy......

You're not the only one here who's laughing!

 

[BrokewrenchLS1]

Lowe's did the same thing. HD probably did too. People complained at the time, but now you see everybody buying them up for those "USA-made prices."

The way I see it, Sears was obviously not making much if any money on those USA-made tools. They had to keep retail prices at a certain level, while production costs continued to rise. Now their production costs are lower and they finally have a more competitive profit margin.

Outside of Harbor Freight, you really can't buy brand name tools for the same price as Craftsman (Chinese or not). HD and Lowe's sell their imported tools at pretty much the same price. Menard's USA-made stuff is slightly more expensive, and will probably be outsourced soon enough. USA brands like SK and Wright cost 2-3x as much. Everybody says that Craftsman are now China tools for USA prices. I'd sure as heck like to know where they are buying USA-made tools from. From what I see, Craftsman used to be USA tools for China prices. How long did we really expect it to last?

I should have said Craftsman was selling their Chinese-made tools for the same price their US-made tools were selling for. If they're making money on the Chinese tools and selling them to the current disposable generation, that's fine; I'll pay the increased cost to get a significantly better tool, made in the US, from SK.

What pisses me off is that the power tool companies - Dewalt, Milwaukee, Makita, etc - did the same thing with their manufacturing. I walked through Home Depot the other night and every single 18V drill I picked up said Made in China. The Milwaukee one even had "Under Strict Tolerances" or some other marketing ******** on the label.

Unfortunately, unless I want to pay 4-5 times the price for Metabo or Fesstool (and some of their stuff isn't European-made, either, from what I've seen), or spend weeks tracking down German-made Bosch and paying out the nose for i t, I'm essentially **** out of luck when it comes to getting a non-Chinese tool. And I'm still paying US-made prices for those Chinese power tools.

What really pisses me off is the $450 Bosch tablesaw I'm looking at is made in Taiwan. For that price, I expected the ******* to be German-made. Nope.

 

[bart1]

I bought a ratchet online that turned out Chinese. I returned it. Kept my last US RP wrenches. A buddy bought some RP wrenches that were Chinese and he returned them.

 

[woody 73]

We on the GJ are like a drop of sweat (excrete salty moisture from the glands of the skin); on the left testicle of a giant Godzilla Monster from overseas. On any given day most customers today have no clue as to coo of craftsman tools and further more they could care less as long as it is cheap. On any given day in my town the HF store is packed and the Sears is dead...

So instead of posting these posts, how about talking about new tools that you use and enjoy everyday!

 

[hifi_hokie]

So instead of posting these posts, how about talking about new tools that you use and enjoy everyday!

I would, but I'm at work...

 

[Spudland_Dave]

On any given day most customers today have no clue as to coo of craftsman tools and further more they could care less as long as it is cheap. On any given day in my town the HF store is packed and the Sears is dead...

I'm a GJ member and I could care less about COO. This is a new thing to me, as prior to me thinkin like this I was a USA only guy...period. I got a toolbox full of American made tools to prove it....BUT alas the days of me caring about it are gone because one of 2 things has happened to USA made items...
A) Quality was adjusted downward
B) Pricing was adjusted upward.
Impact to their bottom lines were the same.
I refuse to chase a white van all around town for the privilege of spending 16 bucks on a 17mm socket just because it was made here. If some 7 year old chinese kid can do an excellent job at making a 17mm socket 3x nicer then the USA one it replaced for 3 bucks...So be it.

Good quality tool is a good quality tool period. Dont see much people crying that their shiny new DeWalt 20v Lithium is junk, Was DeWalt ever made in the USA? I know that Milwaukee gets **** on for having moved its manufacturing, but as a Milwaukee Loyalist, even my new Chi-Com Milwaukees are still the same great tools, they and anybody else who moves COO to stay competitive is some how a bad guy.

I bet if MFG's stopped putting COO on the tool, snappy would be gone overseas tomorrow and in 2 weeks we'd be seeing posts about how much nicer the new generation Snappy sockets are...even tho they were being forged in Bangladesh...

 

[BrokewrenchLS1]

I bet if MFG's stopped putting COO on the tool, snappy would be gone overseas tomorrow and in 2 weeks we'd be seeing posts about how much nicer the new generation Snappy sockets are...even tho they were being forged in Bangladesh...

You missed all the raaaaaaaageeeeeeeeeee threads about how Snap-on wasn't marking ratchets as US-made any more, so they were all made in other countries, the conspiracy theories that went along with that, the teeth-gnashing of SO loyalists trying to defend "Snap-on selling to a global marketplace where the US-made stamp simply wasn't conducive to sales" marketing blurbs, et cetera ad nauseum ad infinitum.

Non-US production is all about consistent quality control. It's possible to get good tools made in China, and moreso in Taiwan, but it takes a great effort to keep the quality consistently at the mark set by the parent company. In some cases, that simply can't be done; in other cases, it's more effective to keep production in the US. Snap-on does have non-US made tools, but in general the quality control is consistent with tight tolerances (although some of the private label stuff they simply source from other companies and slap a Blue Point sticker on isn't exactly high-quality).

Could SK move production of their tools to China or Taiwan and likely keep the quality they have now? There's a good chance it's possible, but in order to keep that quality consistent, and get the quality in the first place, wouldn't save any costs from producing the tools here in the US. And, there's the whole bit about sending money to what is essentially a financial and political enemy to the US, China.

 

[pipsters]

You missed all the raaaaaaaageeeeeeeeeee threads about how Snap-on wasn't marking ratchets as US-made any more, so they were all made in other countries, the conspiracy theories that went along with that, the teeth-gnashing of SO loyalists trying to defend "Snap-on selling to a global marketplace where the US-made stamp simply wasn't conducive to sales" marketing blurbs, et cetera ad nauseum ad infinitum.

Non-US production is all about consistent quality control. It's possible to get good tools made in China, and moreso in Taiwan, but it takes a great effort to keep the quality consistently at the mark set by the parent company. In some cases, that simply can't be done; in other cases, it's more effective to keep production in the US. Snap-on does have non-US made tools, but in general the quality control is consistent with tight tolerances (although some of the private label stuff they simply source from other companies and slap a Blue Point sticker on isn't exactly high-quality).

Could SK move production of their tools to China or Taiwan and likely keep the quality they have now? There's a good chance it's possible, but in order to keep that quality consistent, and get the quality in the first place, wouldn't save any costs from producing the tools here in the US. And, there's the whole bit about sending money to what is essentially a financial and political enemy to the US, China.

My experience has been the opposite, import products = higher quality control. I just recently bought a new plug for my headset, $210 from Bose, the phone jack was inserted at a 20* angle. They sent me a new one but seriously for $210 that stuff should be perfect. The product is US made...

 

[hifi_hokie]

Non-US production is all about consistent quality control.

You can take out the "non" and it would still be true

 

[otis66]

If I have to buy tools made in China/Taiwan they will not be Craftsman, and they will not be from Sears. Now I only buy SK Wright Snap On. I do have a couple of GearWrench and Durakast Sockets and ratchets. Everything else is Made in USA. Sears has ruined the Craftsman brand.

 

[RustFarmer]

Was DeWalt ever made in the USA?

Yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radial_arm_saw

 

[BrokewrenchLS1]

My experience has been the opposite, import products = higher quality control. I just recently bought a new plug for my headset, $210 from Bose, the phone jack was inserted at a 20* angle. They sent me a new one but seriously for $210 that stuff should be perfect. The product is US made...

Depends on what you're talking about. Strictly tools is one thing. Electronics like Bose (gag) are completely different.

You can take out the "non" and it would still be true

More important with Chinese and Indian manufacturing, as they're quite happy to cut as many corners as they can when inspectors aren't around so they make more profit. Not limited to non-US production, but I saw it numerous times when I was doing R&D in a previous job.

 

[Dieselbutterfly]

We on the GJ are like a drop of sweat (excrete salty moisture from the glands of the skin); on the left testicle of a giant Godzilla Monster from overseas. On any given day most customers today have no clue as to coo of craftsman tools and further more they could care less as long as it is cheap. On any given day in my town the HF store is packed and the Sears is dead...

So instead of posting these posts, how about talking about new tools that you use and enjoy everyday!

you must be looking for the post the hf tools you enjoy thread,comrade

 

[serviceguy]

Yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radial_arm_saw

DeWalt (B&D) had a plant in Easton, MD where most of the power tools were made. Production from that plant was moved to Mexico, just past the border from McAllen, TX. Plant was closed afterward. Another B&D plant in Fayetteville, NC was closed shortly after, production was moved , again, south of the border. Same fate for the plants in Europe (Western Europe that is), the plant in Northern England was gradually moved to the Czech Republic and later shut down. Engineering/design facilities were maintained both in the US and England as far as I know (last time i checked).

Back to topic, my problem with today's CM tools is that while the price is the same the visual/mechanical properties have deteriorated. Were they the best? No. I have been buying CM wrenches since '96 when i first visited this Great Country of yours (I am not being sarcastic, I love the US and i am honored to be living here). For example, when I first purchased a set of CM chrome wrenches I compared them to an equivalent USAG or Beta made in Italy (my COO that I love but keeps disappointing me in many ways) and could not make sense of their thickness. I got used to hem and use them for all my projects (also my Beta/Usag are in Italy so a little too far to reach). But things have now taken a turn for the worse sure enough, last time a walked in Sears for a fill in of weird missing sizes from my metric (off course) sets (that I could not find anyway) all the sets (including the full polish[ed] ones) were made in China and you could tell immediately from the awful lobster claw open end. If you're willing to ignore labor conditions, patents infringements, systematic despise of human rights, piloted currency exchange and what not that's fine (you may argue that at least the Chinese boy in the sweatshop gets a meal), as long as the quality is there. But I guess QC has a cost even in China.