Craftsman socket maker marks?

[txlonghorn1989]

Xmas week last year, I bought a Craftsman red & gray 6-drawer tool chest with tools. I am just really getting around to taking inventory on what's in there. A close to complete set of 1/2" =v= socket set. Same for 3/8" & 1/4" drive sets except that with these latter two drive sets the socket maker marks are spread between -G-, -EE-, -v-, -vv-, and =v=.

I've read the early Craftsman and Maker "V" stuff at Alloy Artifacts several times before and reviewed it again but there isn't anything there yet with respect to sockets. I noticed in the 3/8" metric sockets that some have vertical parallel lines creating a band low on the socket (-G-) and one that band was high on the socket (-vv-). Given that these 3/8" metric sockets are mostly -G- but some are -EE- and one is -vv-, I suspect these are a hodge-podge. I doubt you could have bought a set that would have come with different maker marks within the set. Can anyone confirm?

First off, I'd like to try to figure out if any of these sets are close to maybe being complete and original. Also, what I need to complete the sets, their age/period, what/who are the marks attributable to?

There were also a few tools from Proto, Thorsen, Mac, SO, Blackhawk, Williams, Crescent, Herbrand, Clik-Stop, Schwinn, Duro-Chrome, Indestro, Easco, and Powr Kraft. Any thoughts on how to determine value. I also wonder how does one let folks know these are available for trades?

Lots of other Asian or no maker marks wrenches and pliers and then a whole drawer full of screwdrivers very few of which have any identifiable maker at least for me. Same story...are any of these worth keeping as users, collectible or as trade bait? I really know zilch wrt screwdrivers beyond Klein.

It was interesting that while this toolbox was predominantly Craftsman there are a lot of other brand tools in there but there were ZERO sockets that weren't Craftsman.

I'll be happy to provide more detailed pics if it'll help or if people just want to see. Appreciate any help or guidance you can provide!

Thanks, Mike

 

[txlonghorn1989]

In the little 1/4" drive Craftsman box, there were two ratchets. A K-D and a Penens. I really like the little Penens but it's broken. Are OEM parts available? How would one go about fixing it? I've never taken a ratchet apart.

The sockets are mostly =v= as is the breaker bar but there is a -vv- 1/2" socket which doesn't belong and won't fit in the socket tray holes. The slider (not sure what these are called) for the breaker bar isn't marked. Is that normal for a 1/4" slider to be unmarked? The sockets are all 6pt except where noted with an * which indicates 8pt. The sizes are: 7/16, 3/8, 11/32 (2), 5/16*, 9/32, 1/4*, 1/4 and 7/32. What sockets would this set originally have come with? Any idea what time period it was available?

Also, the previous owner mentioned something about he just oiled the 1/2" CM ratchet and it was missing some part. I'll try to take some pics so you guys can tell me what it might be missing.


Thanks, Mike

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Clik-Stop

1957 Proto patent. J.P. Danielson made. They are branded Proto or Vlchek. Maybe others.

I also wonder how does one let folks know these are available for trades?

Classifieds. Scroll down the main page. Next section, under this forum. You'll see it.

EDIT: Or I guess you could just announce it here like you just did. Others have done that. In general, the mods made an emphasis a few years ago to separate the sales/trades exchanges from the discussions. Hence the separate section. Believe it or not, and anyone who has been here since 2012 can testify to this, it got really crazy when everything was on one board. The sales and trades threads were so many and so frequently, that you couldn't have the kinds of conversations we have now. You'd start a thread about a tool or set you found, or pose a question about a strange tool, and you'd come back in an hour and it would literally already be on page 3.

 

[four.cycle]

Given that these 3/8" metric sockets are mostly -G- but some are -EE- and one is -vv-, I suspect these are a hodge-podge.

> Possibly.

I noticed in the 3/8" metric sockets that some have vertical parallel lines creating a band low on the socket (-G-) and one that band was high on the socket (-vv-). Given that these 3/8" metric sockets are mostly -G- but some are -EE- and one is -vv-, I suspect these are a hodge-podge.

> The knurling patterns aren't consistent even among sockets having the same production codes. You will also find sockets with the same production codes that appear to be stamped "upside down".

I doubt you could have bought a set that would have come with different maker marks within the set. Can anyone confirm?

> I doubt that Sears cared much about whether all the sockets in a given set all had matching production codes. A set is a set.

First off, I'd like to try to figure out if any of these sets are close to maybe being complete and original.

> You'd have to refer to early Craftsman catalogs. They're available for download at ToolArchives.com and other online sources. (There's also a few posted here - use the "search" function above.)

Also, what I need to complete the sets, their age/period, what/who are the marks attributable to?

> There's no way to determine exactly what year a Craftsman tool was made. You can only narrow it down to a range of years. See Mr. Lauver's list HERE: http://www.thegaragegazette.com/index.php?topic=867.0

There were also a few tools from Proto, Thorsen, Mac, SO, Blackhawk, Williams, Crescent, Herbrand, Clik-Stop, Schwinn, Duro-Chrome, Indestro, Easco, and Powr Kraft. Any thoughts on how to determine value.

> You can check "sold" listings on Ebay to help make a best educated guess. "Value" is what a willing buyer is ready to pay at point of sale.

I also wonder how does one let folks know these are available for trades?

> As noted above, you can post them in the "Classifieds" forum here.

Lots of other Asian or no maker marks wrenches and pliers and then a whole drawer full of screwdrivers very few of which have any identifiable maker at least for me. Same story...are any of these worth keeping as users, collectible or as trade bait?

> A guy can never own too many paint can openers.

I really like the little Penens but it's broken. Are OEM parts available? How would one go about fixing it?

> Very doubtful that you'd be able to find parts. Easier to just find another ratchet.

The sockets are mostly =v= as is the breaker bar but there is a -vv- 1/2" socket which doesn't belong and won't fit in the socket tray holes.

> It's possible that set may have only come with sockets up to 7/16".

The slider (not sure what these are called) for the breaker bar isn't marked. Is that normal for a 1/4" slider to be unmarked?

> "Cross bar" (or "Tommy Bar" if you're British). Very few of those were marked by the manufacturers. Most of those older sets are missing that piece.

 

[txlonghorn1989]

Given that these 3/8" metric sockets are mostly -G- but some are -EE- and one is -vv-, I suspect these are a hodge-podge.

> Possibly.

I noticed in the 3/8" metric sockets that some have vertical parallel lines creating a band low on the socket (-G-) and one that band was high on the socket (-vv-). Given that these 3/8" metric sockets are mostly -G- but some are -EE- and one is -vv-, I suspect these are a hodge-podge.

> The knurling patterns aren't consistent even among sockets having the same production codes. You will also find sockets with the same production codes that appear to be stamped "upside down".

I doubt you could have bought a set that would have come with different maker marks within the set. Can anyone confirm?

> I doubt that Sears cared much about whether all the sockets in a given set all had matching production codes. A set is a set.

First off, I'd like to try to figure out if any of these sets are close to maybe being complete and original.

> You'd have to refer to early Craftsman catalogs. They're available for download at ToolArchives.com and other online sources. (There's also a few posted here - use the "search" function above.)

Also, what I need to complete the sets, their age/period, what/who are the marks attributable to?

> There's no way to determine exactly what year a Craftsman tool was made. You can only narrow it down to a range of years. See Mr. Lauver's list HERE: http://www.thegaragegazette.com/index.php?topic=867.0

There were also a few tools from Proto, Thorsen, Mac, SO, Blackhawk, Williams, Crescent, Herbrand, Clik-Stop, Schwinn, Duro-Chrome, Indestro, Easco, and Powr Kraft. Any thoughts on how to determine value.

> You can check "sold" listings on Ebay to help make a best educated guess. "Value" is what a willing buyer is ready to pay at point of sale.

I also wonder how does one let folks know these are available for trades?

> As noted above, you can post them in the "Classifieds" forum here.

Lots of other Asian or no maker marks wrenches and pliers and then a whole drawer full of screwdrivers very few of which have any identifiable maker at least for me. Same story...are any of these worth keeping as users, collectible or as trade bait?

> A guy can never own too many paint can openers.

I really like the little Penens but it's broken. Are OEM parts available? How would one go about fixing it?

> Very doubtful that you'd be able to find parts. Easier to just find another ratchet.

The sockets are mostly =v= as is the breaker bar but there is a -vv- 1/2" socket which doesn't belong and won't fit in the socket tray holes.

> It's possible that set may have only come with sockets up to 7/16".

The slider (not sure what these are called) for the breaker bar isn't marked. Is that normal for a 1/4" slider to be unmarked?

> "Cross bar" (or "Tommy Bar" if you're British). Very few of those were marked by the manufacturers. Most of those older sets are missing that piece.

Thanks a lot four cycle!

On the different production pieces in a set, I understand and agree that Sears wouldn't have cared but I assumed that sets were provided by the maker not that Sears was putting together 1/4" socket sets based on parts from vendors. Make sense? But I also know what happens when one assumes. I would like to hear if anyone definitively knows how it was actually done with Sears and Craftsman.

Mike

 

[four.cycle]

^ I've got sets that have mixed production codes. They were purchased second-hand, but I have reason to believe some of them came that way from the factory.

Sears (as Sears) most likely didn't need to concern themselves with whether or not all the pieces in a socket set had matching production codes. Why would they?
If it was a set of fancy formal silverware it would make a difference to the end consumer. Or a set of Waterford crystal glasses. Socket sets - not so much. Tools are tools.

Consider that items like sockets are made by the tens of thousands. Some are going to sell faster than others. Ergo: inventory on some items will have a slower turnover ratio than others. Sets are made up out of existing stock - they don't do production runs of "sets" - they make production runs of individual pieces. At some point you're going to end up with an over-abundance of one or two sizes .

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Sears (as Sears) most likely didn't need to concern themselves with whether or not all the pieces in a socket set had matching production codes. Why would they?
If it was a set of fancy formal silverware it would make a difference to the end consumer. Or a set of Waterford crystal glasses. Socket sets - not so much. Tools are tools.

Mike's question isn't whether or not Sears & Roebuck would be concerned about customers receiving Craftsman socket sets (or any wrench sets, etc) with matching OEM codes. He's asking why sets would have different (i.e., not matching) OEM codes if the pieces in the set were being made, assembled, and shipped directly to customers and/or Sears stores from a single OEM. The only way for customers to receive original Craftsman sets with piece-parts bearing different OEM codes is if Sears & Roebuck or a distributor working for Sears & Roebuck was handling (receiving, warehousing, assembling, re-assembling, etc) whole sets and/or piece-parts for sets coming from multiple OEM's.

In other words, was Sears & Roebuck truly only a front office? Or did they or someone working for them insert themselves into the actual production process somewhere in between manufacturing and retail/delivery?

If it's the former, I agree with Mike that sets with a mix of OEM codes really don't make sense.

If it's the latter, it's possible for end-item sets to have piece-parts made by more than one OEM.

I know that Sears & Roebuck contracted for those kinds of technical services (receiving, warehousing, assembly, and shipping) during WWII for military contracts. I don't know the answer for Craftsman sets sold on the commercial market then or later.

The other explanation is that the codes are not OEM codes.

EDIT: All of the above assumes that the pieces in the sets are original to each other and the set from the factory. Of course the most likely explanation for mixed codes is that they are not original to each other and the set, but were put in the box by previous owners, not the factory.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Quick addendum on my edit comment above:

I have never found or seen a complete unadulterated NOS Craftsman socket set with unquestionable originality. Having samples like that would help.

I have found a few that seemed (without absolute proof) all original to each other and the box and they were all discrete (i.e., all BE or all (H)). And I have seen other collectors report some mixing of codes in sets that seemed original. Both scenarios make sense, since it was the same OEM (New Britain).

I don't know enough about the eras that followed to give a summary of what has been found by collectors in terms of the integrity of codes in sets that were considered complete and original.

 

[four.cycle]

I don't think any of us are ever going to be able to definitively answer the question.

During periods where there were years and years of one OEM manufacturing one production code (i.e., "=V=") then it would be reasonable to assume that all the pieces in a given set would have matching production codes.
Later in the game those date ranges are much narrower time windows. Take a look at the years on Lauver's list for the later codes E EE G. Then toss in the G2 G2D and all the other variants. Now toss in the upside-down G G2.
All of a sudden you've got a whole mess of different production codes that were all produced within a relatively short time frame.

A guy who's really really good at production and inventory management can get that "JIT" (just in time) thing down to a fine art, but sooner or later you're going to discover you've got barrels of 9/32" deep-wells or 11/16" 8-points in some dark corner.
Are you going to toss them out? Melt them down? Or work them into the packaging division and get them inserted into sets going down the line?

I just picked up a couple little CM sets a couple weeks ago off Craigslist. Bought them from a young man who said he was cleaning out Grandpa's basement. I have no reason not to take him at his word. Apparently Grandpa was more a woodworker than a mechanic - the sockets and wrenches were immaculate, but all covered with a layer of fine sawdust. It's clear that the tools saw little (if any) use. I've got mixed production codes in this lot.
I think it's reasonable to assume Grandpa bought them that way.



This was not the first time I've acquired sets of CM sockets with mixed production codes. Again, they have all been purchased second-hand, but I think at least one or two of them were mixed when they were purchased new. (Particularly those that were sets of unused pieces, like that little 1/4" metric set in the photo above.)

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Totally agree, BK.

But the only way that's true is if the inventory management "guy" in your first scenario and the notional inventory management guy responsible for assembling you recent CL sets prior to your seller's woodworking grandpa buying them new did NOT work for one of the OEM's represented by E, EE, G, G2, G2D, or the upside-down G, and G2.

The guy had to work for Sears or a company Sears hired to do all the middle work between ALL those factories and the customer.

That's what Mike is asking.

 

[four.cycle]

I doubt you could have bought a set that would have come with different maker marks within the set.

If Moore Drop Forge, or Danaher, or Easco were the ones doing the packaging, then it would seem reasonable to assume that all of the pieces in a given set would have matching production codes in most cases.

I say "in most cases" because even with the best and brightest production and inventory management, you're inevitably going to have instances of production over-runs and/or production shortages, thereby leaving at some point an oddball lot of inventory.

If, on the other hand, the packaging of the finished product was being done by some third party, I think it would be reasonable to assume that the instances of mixed production codes within a given set would be more common.

I think the farther back you go, the less likely the "mixed code" thing is going to occur, simply because there were only a couple OEMs and the production runs (of a given code) were of much longer duration.

All of this, of course, is speculation and conjecture. Until somebody comes along who worked inside one of the plants, we'll never know for sure.

 

[four.cycle]

The first CM sockets I ever bought were a couple sets from a guy on CL. That was a year or so before I joined here.
He told me he purchased them new at Sears as sets. I got a set of 3/8" drive SAE shallow sockets, and a set of 3/8" drive Metric shallow sockets from him. They were all in new or like-new condition. There are mixed codes within the sets.
Maybe he was lying to me and he actually acquired them one at a time from various Sears stores. Maybe he shoplifted all of them over a course of years.
Or maybe he was telling me the truth when he said he bought them new as sets.

Now I'm trying to remember why I bought them.

 

[jakemac]

Any set supplied by Danaher or Easco has the potential to have mixed coded socket sets inside. Regardless of the company name. Moore Drop Forge was under both umbrellas at some point, and it was their factory that was creating the supply. Whether packaged at the MDF factory, a Danaher facility, an Easco facility, or a Craftsman/Sear's facility the sockets would have been stored in a mass bin for set assembly or single sale. Thus, creating the possibility of mixed sets during the crossover period when the codes were changing.

I've seen new packages with mixed G, various G2, and EE codes all the same set. All depending on what came out of the stock bins during packaging when.

 

[txlonghorn1989]

Mike's question isn't whether or not Sears & Roebuck would be concerned about customers receiving Craftsman socket sets (or any wrench sets, etc) with matching OEM codes. He's asking why sets would have different (i.e., not matching) OEM codes if the pieces in the set were being made, assembled, and shipped directly to customers and/or Sears stores from a single OEM. The only way for customers to receive original Craftsman sets with piece-parts bearing different OEM codes is if Sears & Roebuck or a distributor working for Sears & Roebuck was handling (receiving, warehousing, assembling, re-assembling, etc) whole sets and/or piece-parts for sets coming from multiple OEM's.

In other words, was Sears & Roebuck truly only a front office? Or did they or someone working for them insert themselves into the actual production process somewhere in between manufacturing and retail/delivery?

If it's the former, I agree with Mike that sets with a mix of OEM codes really don't make sense.

If it's the latter, it's possible for end-item sets to have piece-parts made by more than one OEM.

I know that Sears & Roebuck contracted for those kinds of technical services (receiving, warehousing, assembly, and shipping) during WWII for military contracts. I don't know the answer for Craftsman sets sold on the commercial market then or later.

The other explanation is that the codes are not OEM codes.

EDIT: All of the above assumes that the pieces in the sets are original to each other and the set from the factory. Of course the most likely explanation for mixed codes is that they are not original to each other and the set, but were put in the box by previous owners, not the factory.

You got exactly where I'm coming from Lugz. To me the most obvious answer as it applies to what's in that toolbox is these are piece-meal parts the previous owner collected and put in his toolbox. But I think it would be interesting if we could find out how Sears & Roebuck went about their business and how involved or not were they in what customers bought in stores and thru catalogs back in the day. At least I think it's interesting.

Mike

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

Or some of those sockets were not so great, and you have a wide variety of warranty replaced sockets that were originally purchased as a set. I don't keep records, but I think E series have been the least lucky sockets for me.

 

[shanny19]

I have a Craftsman 1/4 ratchet that not only is marked with two different Danaher manufacturer codes (K3AB and KAB), it is marked with two different part numbers (44807 and 23790).

And, yes, it came in the same set with itself.

 

[four.cycle]

Any set supplied by Danaher or Easco has the potential to have mixed coded socket sets inside. Regardless of the company name. Moore Drop Forge was under both umbrellas at some point, and it was their factory that was creating the supply. Whether packaged at the MDF factory, a Danaher facility, an Easco facility, or a Craftsman/Sear's facility the sockets would have been stored in a mass bin for set assembly or single sale. Thus, creating the possibility of mixed sets during the crossover period when the codes were changing.

I've seen new packages with mixed G, various G2, and EE codes all the same set. All depending on what came out of the stock bins during packaging when.

^ Thanks for articulating it more clearly than I was able to.

I'd posit that it's probably far less prevalent in the older MDF "=V=" and "-V-" stuff, simply because the production periods for those were of much longer duration than the later "G" and "E" variants.

WWLS ?? (what would Lauver say?)

 

[jakemac]

I suspect a similar mix would also have been seen amongst the =V=/-V- and -V-/G transitions as well. Only more prevalent in the G/G2/E/EE transitions because those dates are closer together.

 

[four.cycle]

^ exactly.

I've got a set of 1/2" drive deep-wells that are a mix of -V- and =V= - picked 'em up at a pawn shop used. While the codes are different, the sockets look to all be about the same age - same amount of "drawer rash", same degree of use.

I honestly don't believe that Sears would have been even the least bit concerned about supplying their socket sets with all the pieces inside having matching production codes. There's nothing logical (from a business standpoint) that supports the argument that they would.

Snap-on, maybe..... Sears? I would really doubt it.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

You got exactly where I'm coming from Lugz.

No problem. It's a good question that has come up before here and there in different threads, including the Garage Gazette thread devoted to Craftsman codes. It was good for you to concentrate it on one thread.

I think Jakemac has come up with a very plausible explanation (pieces and sets coming from what amounts to essentially one and the same OEM at a time period when multiple codes belonging to different business entities were in overlapping use/transition by that OEM) for the otherwise illogical mixed sets. And if you look at the color-coded timeline for Craftsman codes that is available as a download on the GG thread, those overlapping periods do pop out.

I think it would be interesting if we could find out how Sears & Roebuck went about their business and how involved or not were they in what customers bought in stores and thru catalogs back in the day.

Jakemac alluded to the possibility of the only other plausible explanation for mixed sets that I mentioned in my first reply - S&R or a contractor for S&R providing distribution (receiving, assembly, and packaging) services of pieces from multiple OEMs in an S&R facility. But I agree with you - that is still much more opaque. I haven't seen any historical documents laying out how that worked.

I honestly don't believe that Sears would have been even the least bit concerned about supplying their socket sets with all the pieces inside having matching production codes. There's nothing logical (from a business standpoint) that supports the argument that they would.

Agreed, four.cycle. Just to make sure there have been no misunderstandings, nobody on this thread made that argument.

 

[txlonghorn1989]

No problem. It's a good question that has come up before here and there in different threads, including the Garage Gazette thread devoted to Craftsman codes. It was good for you to concentrate it on one thread.
...

Lugz,
What is the Garage Gazette thread? Is that here? Another website? I've not seen it. Sounds interesting.

Edit: Okay...it's the link that four.cycle provided earlier. Checking it out now!

Thanks, Mike

 

[four.cycle]

"... color-coded timeline for Craftsman codes that is available as a download on the GG thread..."

got a link for that?

 

[jakemac]

Lugz,
What is the Garage Gazette thread? Is that here? Another website? I've not seen it. Sounds interesting.

Edit: Okay...it's the link that four.cycle provided earlier. Checking it out now!

Thanks, Mike

got a link for that?

Here is the link for the Craftsman Date Code thread at Garage Gazette.
http://www.thegaragegazette.com/index.php?topic=867.0

That thread is the original, with the one here a copy with its own conversation.
The chart at the Gazette is updated more often than the one here.
Both started by Lauver.

 

[leg17]

In other manufacturing situations I have seen competitors 'sharing' inventory. Johnson got this year's contract and Wilson makes available last year's overruns, (at discount). Contract expires and the tables may turn.

Possible in this case as I am fairly confident that sets were NOT assembled by Sears people but by the manufacturer. Sears had plenty enough to do with inventory management.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Thanks for posting the link and background, jake. I'm on the road.