Craftsman sockets U.S. made vs China made

[Russ56]

I have read a lot of discussions on the U.S. Made vs China made craftsman tools. Like most people on here, I hate that they outsourced craftsman tools overseas. First, it cost American jobs here at home. Craftsman has been associated with American pride in quality tools for an affordable price for many decades. I first started using them in the early 70s as a mechanic until I went in the Air Force in 76. Continued to use them for work on my own cars and trucks over the decades. They have been very reliable over that time. I have only had too warranty 3 tools over that time. Most of my craftsman tools have made in USA on them. But in recent times, I have had to settle on on new tools being made in China. The other day I picked up two new sockets at Sears. One was left over USA stock but other was made in China. Looking them both over to see if I could see any difference in quality. I did see a little difference in how they where manufactured. I was not able to see any real difference in quality. Time will tell though. I do know more of China's manufacturing is complying with ISO 9002 standards as of late. Time will tell if that works out or not. I am including photos of the sockets so you can see the differences I noticed. In the pictures the socket on the right is the one made in the U.S.

China made

USA made

 

[jhnlngn]

Thanks for the comparison. Was there a price difference between the 1 1/8" USA made socket that you found and a Chinese one?

 

[Russ56]

No same price. 10.69 apiece.

 

[1950mercury]

Are those 1/2 drive. I notice neither one has the double detent

 

[Russ56]

Are those 1/2 drive. I notice neither one has the double detent

Yes they are.

 

[Sam'sAutoParts]

IMHO the China one just looks cheap, I'm sure it functions just fine, just looks cheap.

 

[L.Cheapo]

Why does the Chinese socket have that circular portion deep inside? Is it a feature, to prevent something, or just a result of the manufacturing process?

I bought all my craftsman sockets in the early and mid 1990s. All USA made, used professionally for 6 years, and DIY ever since. I've never broken one.

 

[AceofSpad3s]

Why does the Chinese socket have that circular portion deep inside? Is it a feature, to prevent something, or just a result of the manufacturing process?

I bought all my craftsman sockets in the early and mid 1990s. All USA made, used professionally for 6 years, and DIY ever since. I've never broken one.

I notice that circle with a lot of import sockets. I assume is for cost reasons since they can just pop a hole into it rather than machine it square.

 

[Russ56]

Why does the Chinese socket have that circular portion deep inside? Is it a feature, to prevent something, or just a result of the manufacturing process?

I bought all my craftsman sockets in the early and mid 1990s. All USA made, used professionally for 6 years, and DIY ever since. I've never broken one.

I think it's just part of the manufacturing process. That was the biggest difference I saw.

 

[jhnlngn]

No same price. 10.69 apiece.

Thanks. That's the stuff that makes me so mad. You here again and again that we outsource work to keep costs down, and then they turn around and sell those cheaper made good for the same price to American consumers. I am sure this isn't the case across the board, but I see it happen all the time.

 

[ganymede]

Thanks. That's the stuff that makes me so mad. You here again and again that we outsource work to keep costs down, and then they turn around and sell those cheaper made good for the same price to American consumers...

It does keep costs down. That's why Craftsman tools havent gone up much in price over the last 10 - 15 yrs.

 

[jhnlngn]

It does keep costs down. That's why Craftsman tools havent gone up much in price over the last 10 - 15 yrs.

Of course it keeps costs down, the point is that it doesn't get passed along to the consumer. A Chinese made socket should be priced lower that an American made one from the same company.

The biggest reason why Craftsman tools were always cheaper and never exploded in price was because Sears isn't a tool store. It's one thing they do and they never needed the same profit margins on their tools that a tool only company needed.

 

[d.mcfarland]

Thanks OP for the pictures. Good data for this site.

 

[LumpyMusic]

Of course it keeps costs down, the point is that it doesn't get passed along to the consumer. A Chinese made socket should be priced lower that an American made one from the same company.

Business 101. Buy low, sell high.

Divorce yourself from the concept that Sears, or any business, exists to be a friend/pal of the consumer and embrace the simple concept that businesses exist to make a profit. Nothing wrong or unethical or illegal about it. Business is in business to make money. If they are a GOOD business, they charge the maximum amount that the market will bear and they pay the least amount for the wholesale product.


Sgt Lumpy

 

[jhnlngn]

Business 101. Buy low, sell high.

Divorce yourself from the concept that Sears, or any business, exists to be a friend/pal of the consumer and embrace the simple concept that businesses exist to make a profit. Nothing wrong or unethical or illegal about it. Business is in business to make money. If they are a GOOD business, they charge the maximum amount that the market will bear and they pay the least amount for the wholesale product.


Sgt Lumpy

Oh trust me, I have never been married to that concept. I've been a business owner. I'm just making that exact same point. I don't want people to buy into the whole, we go to China to give the consumer a better deal, bs. It is why I pay attention to COO of every purchase I make.

Of course Sears clearly isn't a good business. Their CEO is running them into the ground despite flooding their stores with Chinese made good. lol

 

[BMack37]

Man, the finishing on those Chinese-made sockets/ratchets is awful. The stuff from Taiwan is noticeably better, I noticed one from 2 feet away based on the finish...I got excited, I thought it might be a USA-made ratchet

 

[JettaGetUpandGo]

Of course it keeps costs down, the point is that it doesn't get passed along to the consumer. A Chinese made socket should be priced lower that an American made one from the same company.

It does keep costs down. Would you prefer they raise the price to $15 per socket to allow Sears (or Apex, or whoever makes them) to continue making them in the US? The cost of goods increases. Their options are to raise the price and risk losing sales or find a way to produce the product more cheaply and risk losing sales for that reason.

The average consumer won't pay $15 for a socket and doesn't care where it's made as long as it's cheap and decent quality. Someone willing to pay $15 per socket isn't going to look at Craftsman. They're going to look for a tool truck brand or something known for $15 per socket quality.

For all practical purposes, this thread shows there is little difference between between the US and China made socket. Craftsman has always been a step above the Tool Shop **** at Menards or other cheap **** and a step below the high priced tool truck brands. It's a happy medium and their product is priced accordingly.

The only thing that changes this is certain Harbor Freight products (not all) have drastically improved in recent years. Their ratchets, impact sockets, etc. are an incredible value for the money. The downside to this is their sets skip sizes and there are no open stock options to fill them. As Harbor Freight continues to improve, Craftsman becomes a less attractive option.

 

[ganymede]

Of course it keeps costs down, the point is that it doesn't get passed along to the consumer. A Chinese made socket should be priced lower that an American made one from the same company.
....

But it is passed along to the consumer. Because the price hasn't increased with inflation.
Sears was at a point where they had to raise prices or import sockets from China.
People whined that they didnt want to pay more. So Sears sells the Chinese mfg'd sockets.
The consumer saves the difference in price.

 

[Ponchoguy]

It does keep costs down. Would you prefer they raise the price to $15 per socket to allow Sears (or Apex, or whoever makes them) to continue making them in the US? The cost of goods increases. Their options are to raise the price and risk losing sales or find a way to produce the product more cheaply and risk losing sales for that reason.

The average consumer won't pay $15 for a socket and doesn't care where it's made as long as it's cheap and decent quality. Someone willing to pay $15 per socket isn't going to look at Craftsman. They're going to look for a tool truck brand or something known for $15 per socket quality.

For all practical purposes, this thread shows there is little difference between between the US and China made socket. Craftsman has always been a step above the Tool Shop **** at Menards or other cheap **** and a step below the high priced tool truck brands. It's a happy medium and their product is priced accordingly.

The only thing that changes this is certain Harbor Freight products (not all) have drastically improved in recent years. Their ratchets, impact sockets, etc. are an incredible value for the money. The downside to this is their sets skip sizes and there are no open stock options to fill them. As Harbor Freight continues to improve, Craftsman becomes a less attractive option.

Apex makes them for Sears (now). I'd prefer that Sears, Apex and everyone else make them here and wring out the cost and waste in their process. The more that they continuously improve, the more that they can do, including in this country.

I've said it once and I'll say it before. The job you export next may be your own, so to me it's always been bad business to see a company like Sears make the move to overseas product (or more aptly make their supplier do it, or force them to do so).

Years ago, having a contract with Sears was golden. Whirlpool expanded to the company that they are today because of Sears contracts. There were whole lines running Kenmore product that was WLP made. There were also support personnel that worked on just the Sears account.

For me, seeing it made in the USA at a reasonable price is what it's all about. To say, "Nah, can't be done" is not using the thinking cap. For all the "Nah it can't be dones" multiplied over, that's why you've seen whole industries evaporate.

Pretty soon, people are going to be the only thing made in the USA if we keep it up.

 

[Ponchoguy]

But it is passed along to the consumer. Because the price hasn't increased with inflation.
Sears was at a point where they had to raise prices or import sockets from China.
People whined that they didnt want to pay more. So Sears sells the Chinese mfg'd sockets.
The consumer saves the difference in price.

If you can buy them made in China, why would you have to go to Sears? You'll probably go to HF or the big box stores because you're there anyway.

 

[Ponchoguy]

Man, the finishing on those Chinese-made sockets/ratchets is awful. The stuff from Taiwan is noticeably better, I noticed one from 2 feet away based on the finish...I got excited, I thought it might be a USA-made ratchet

I just dumped a load of Taiwan sockets in exchange for US made ones. I really had to look carefully on the rack to find them.

 

[d.mcfarland]

Pretty soon, people are going to be the only thing made in the USA if we keep it up.

Actually many companies are bringing production back here. Poor quality and increasing cost to manufacture are starting to catch up. Plus let's not forget the growing lower class just looking for a job no matter what it pays.

 

[ganymede]

If you can buy them made in China, why would you have to go to Sears? You'll probably go to HF or the big box stores because you're there anyway.

I have no idea. I only buy domestic mfg'd tools at Sears and that hasn't been much lately.

 

[Ponchoguy]

Actually many companies are bringing production back here. Poor quality and increasing cost to manufacture are starting to catch up. Plus let's not forget the growing lower class just looking for a job no matter what it pays.

Yes, but it will take a long time to reverse what's been done and it's not like every GM, Ford and Chrysler will be made here again...

 

[jhnlngn]

But it is passed along to the consumer. Because the price hasn't increased with inflation.
Sears was at a point where they had to raise prices or import sockets from China.
People whined that they didnt want to pay more. So Sears sells the Chinese mfg'd sockets.
The consumer saves the difference in price.

This is 100% based on your assumption. Do you know that the US made socket prices were raising faster than inflation? Do you have proof that the Chinese sockets haven't increased in price since their introduction? Documentation that consumers whined when Sears sent out some bulletin that they were going to increase tool prices? The only fact that we do know is that Sears sells the sockets for the same price. If the savings had been passed along to the consumer than the price of the socket would've decreased when the import sockets hit the shelf. Did that happen?

Or is the more likely scenario that Sears realized by shifting production overseas they could save x% on wholesale costs to the consumer. Then they hedged their bets that most people don't pay attention to where the COO is and left the prices the same to greatly increase profit margins on said items?

That is totally Sears prerogative to do so and I am not begrudging them. I am just pointing out that they are now selling essentially a Harbor Freight socket at a USA made Craftsman price point. If they were truly passing the savings onto the consumer than they would be priced more inline with Harbor Freight.

Whatever their reason for doing what they are doing it is failing miserably. The company has tanked and may not even be around in the next handful of years. How does Sears really think they can compete selling what they sell at the prices they do when I can buy a US Made SK socket for the same price here:

http://www.toolrage.com/prodview.asp?sku=SKT-41136

Or when the average consumer that doesn't care about COO can go here and buy all of this for nearly the same price:

http://www.harborfreight.com/10-pc-12-in-drive-sae-high-visibility-socket-set-67919.html

No wonder Sears is running sales of appliances below cost just to get people in the door.

 

[Wakefield]

Sears had so many sales and promotions that it became hard to tell what the real price of the stuff should have been. Too many sales and fliers = customers learned not to buy unless there was a "sale", the real price became sort of the average of the sale prices.

Did Sears pressure their suppliers too hard on price,putting the suppliers into distress and causing them to consolidate or get bought out by a single entity,allowing that entity to have more pricing power vs. Sears than the old independent suppliers like Moore Drop Forge did?

Did Sears keep the same supplier which then independently moved production to China or did Sears make the decision to go to China and/or choose new suppliers in China?

 

[Russ56]

Thanks OP for the pictures. Good data for this site.

Your welcome.

 

[Ponchoguy]

Sears had so many sales and promotions that it became hard to tell what the real price of the stuff should have been. Too many sales and fliers = customers learned not to buy unless there was a "sale", the real price became sort of the average of the sale prices.

Did Sears pressure their suppliers too hard on price,putting the suppliers into distress and causing them to consolidate or get bought out by a single entity,allowing that entity to have more pricing power vs. Sears than the old independent suppliers like Moore Drop Forge did?

When Moore Drop Forge was making those items, the world was in less of a rush and you'd have to wait for the Sunday flyer to see what Sears had on sale and you'd go down to your catalog store and order what you wanted and wait a few weeks for it to come.

You also didn't have the Internet and Ebay to do a "buy it now". You paid for it a little at a time (layaway) and did a "buy it later".

 

[ganymede]

This is 100% based on your assumption. Do you know that the US made socket prices were raising faster than inflation? [\QUOTE]

No it's based on the fact that socket prices didn't go up much for so long.

Documentation that consumers whined when Sears sent out some bulletin that they were going to increase tool prices? The only fact that we do know is that Sears sells the sockets for the same price. .....

No, nor do you have proof that Sears executives had some secret meeting where they decided that they were going to import sockets from China just to spite the American consumer .

 

[Ponchoguy]

This is 100% based on your assumption. Do you know that the US made socket prices were raising faster than inflation? [\QUOTE]

No it's based on the fact that socket prices didn't go up much for so long.



No, nor do you have proof that Sears executives had some secret meeting where they decided that they were going to import sockets from China just to spite the American consumer .

I would say it was more like (in their thinking), "We need to make more money and we've gone to Apex and told them this, and they agreed to move production offshore to keep the costs down".

 

[ganymede]

I would say it was more like (in their thinking), "We need to make more money and we've gone to Apex and told them this, and they agreed to move production offshore to keep the costs down".

Yup, keep costs down so that the level of price increase can stay down .

 

[Cato]

If you can buy them made in China, why would you have to go to Sears? You'll probably go to HF or the big box stores because you're there anyway.

All Chinese sockets or tools are not made to the same quality. HF isn't near as good as Chinese Craftsman or Chinese Husky tools.

 

[JettaGetUpandGo]

How does Sears really think they can compete selling what they sell at the prices they do when I can buy a US Made SK socket for the same price here:

http://www.toolrage.com/prodview.asp?sku=SKT-41136

Or when the average consumer that doesn't care about COO can go here and buy all of this for nearly the same price:

http://www.harborfreight.com/10-pc-12-in-drive-sae-high-visibility-socket-set-67919.html

No wonder Sears is running sales of appliances below cost just to get people in the door.

Nice try.

The SK socket that you linked is standard depth, not deep like the one in the original post. The deep socket is $14: http://www.toolrage.com/prodview.asp?sku=SKT-40836

Compare the price on a Craftsman set which goes on sale every other week at a considerable discount to an SK set. The difference becomes much grater.

The Harbor Freight set listed is also shallow, not deep. The set doesn't even go up to 1-1/8", which again, is the socket in the original post.

 

[JettaGetUpandGo]

All Chinese sockets or tools are not made to the same quality. HF isn't near as good as Chinese Craftsman or Chinese Husky tools.

I agree 100% with the quality variation in tools from China. Harbor Freight is improving. All three of the above mentioned are leaps and bounds better than the 26pc. socket sets for $4.99 made in China.

Just because something is made in the USA doesn't mean it's worth its weight in gold. Many have stated that the quality of the raised panel Craftsman ratchets actually increased when production moved from US to China (smoother ratcheting action).

 

[mrvm]

Just because something is made in the USA doesn't mean it's worth its weight in gold. Many have stated that the quality of the raised panel Craftsman ratchets actually increased when production moved from US to China (smoother ratcheting action).

Not too sure of the RP ratchet but your observation could be the reason why the imported CM ratcheting wrenches feels just like or sounds just like the imported Husky, Kobalt or GW ratcheting wrenches

 

[shoggoth80]

I'll agree that quality varies in terms of offshore made tools, even from the same country. I have some Taiwanese stuff that's pretty great. I've also got some older Taiwanese stuff that isn't very good. It varies by manufacturer, and specifications. I've got some GW stuff that is quite nice, and especially so at the price.

My Chinese Cman stuff seems to be ok in terms of sockets. The ratchet bodies seem to be more roughly finished (machining marks on the exterior of the bodies) than the US counterparts, but still get the job done. They aren't my go to ratchets, but they aren't bad for light duty (they're RP, so it's not like they can generate a lot of torque anyway). I'm not overly disappointed for the price paid on them. This is NOT true across the board for Chinese tools.

I'm not even really a Cman fan. They were inexpensive enough. Some inherited (lots of the US stuff I have was inherited so to speak), and some gifts (got a 1/4 and 3/8 set as Xmas gifts the other year), and a few things bought. At work, a lot of it is issued...so there is a lot of it there too. It gets the job done, that's what matters most.

Am I disappointed that production has gone offshore? Sure. Those are jobs citizens here could be working vs. simply buying a product. I don't have a crystal ball, so I don't know what is in store for the future for the brand.

Perhaps the square end machining was considered an extraneous step? Most of my sockets at home are imported. Most have the hole through vs. square machined through. I have never noticed a difference in function in comparison to my work box (SK, Cman, Proto mostly).

 

[BMack37]

I agree 100% with the quality variation in tools from China. Harbor Freight is improving. All three of the above mentioned are leaps and bounds better than the 26pc. socket sets for $4.99 made in China.

Just because something is made in the USA doesn't mean it's worth its weight in gold. Many have stated that the quality of the raised panel Craftsman ratchets actually increased when production moved from US to China (smoother ratcheting action).

I agree, in my search for Williams Kobalt ratchets I've found that the made in USA ratchets from Kobalt(Danaher) after Williams looks just as bad as the Chinese Craftsman. Kobalt's current Taiwan ratchets have better finishing. Based on reviews the finishing is indicative to the product quality under the finishing.

 

[retDAC]

... That is totally Sears prerogative to do so and I am not begrudging them. I am just pointing out that they are now selling essentially a Harbor Freight socket at a USA made Craftsman price point. If they were truly passing the savings onto the consumer than they would be priced more inline with Harbor Freight. ...

Has anyone considered that Sears' business model is drastically different from HF's? The Sears stores I am familiar with (Huntsville, Ala. & Greenville,S.C.) are very nice stores in very nice malls. Sears sells a wide variety compared to HF and Sears has to appeal to women. Married ones at least. Also Sears has to appeal to upper and especially upper middle income folks as well as lower middle income folks. Unless Sears radically changes its business model.

The HF store here is okay for HF but it's crummy compared to Sears. The one in Greenville is actually somewhat nice, but it's in a lower rent (decent) mall.

I have noticed some members complain their Sears store is in a bad neighborhood or bad part of town. What were those like 20-50 years ago?

Sears stocks a lot of individual screwdrivers, sockets, and wrenches, though not as many as a year or two ago, including some sizes not in the smaller sets. HF does not. Which is the better way? I can guarantee you the HF way is much cheaper.

I don't think Lampert is doing a good job of running Sears/Kmart but I don't know why that seems so. Would he somehow gain financially when/if they go bankrupt as has been suggested? Seems conceivable but it doesn't make sense to me.

There are several reasons driving the overall prices of tools at Sears. Again I do think some things at Sears are in need of improvement and critically so. It's the responsibility of upper management to make these improvements. Sadly I can't see this happening and it's not merely about where tools are made, though quality for price is important.

 

[finn]

Plus, the Harbor Freight stores all smell bad.

 

[BMack37]

Plus, the Harbor Freight stores all smell bad.

Almost always just guys in the place; guys smell bad, girls smell nice.