Craftsman tools

[finn]

I haven't seen to many c'man wrenches for $3, they're more like $5 or $6.

The point is that Craftsman's whole schtick was that they were lifetime tools for the average homeowner. I don't believe that that is the case anymore. For one thing, they'll be out of business in a decade or less unless they turn things around in a big way. For another, *without* that warranty, I suspect that the current tools may be worthless.

Why would I pay $50 for a C'man wrench set that I'd consider disposable when for $100 or thereabouts I could get the same set from several other manufacturers with a better reputation for quality and a lifetime warranty?

.

Just checked online for C'man prices at my local Sears Hometown store:

20 Piece Combination set is $49.99, or $2.50 per wrench

12 piece Craftsman Professional set is $39.96, or $3.33 per wrench

10 piece ratcheting set is $34.99. or $3.49 per wrench.

A lot of crying about something you can buy for chump change, in my opinion.

It would be interesting to know how many C'man wrenches are lost, stolen, or sold as part of an estate sale compared to the number that are broken and replaced under warranty.

Also, my toolbox includes Snapon, Wright, Armstrong, and a half dozen other brands.

Craftsman is the only one that I can drive to town and pick up a replacement at Sears or the local hardware store (who also carries Craftsman) on demand if I ever break one.

 

[skcj213]

And that is why Craftsman may very well be dead. Which one of us is right? Time will tell.

If you really want an embarassing comparison though, compare the C'man RP ratchet to a GearWrench 120XP. I don't know that I would call ANY C'man RP flippy-lever ratchet a "nice tool" even the old school USA made ones, that's always been their weak point. They're coarse tooth and yet at the same time never achieved the same smoothness or reputation for strength as, say, SK or Proto who also made coarse tooth ratchets.

The new C'man "premium" ratchets seem really nice in the store and they are made in USA but are priced way above their value level. I'm assuming for $25 you were just looking at the regular raised panel ratchets, the actual good ones are almost $50 or I think if you buy all three it's $140 or so. I can get used Snap-On for less than that...! No, I wouldn't have a warranty on Snap-On, but I feel confident that 40 years from now I'll still be able to call them up and get a rebuild kit.

I'm not really sure the model number, I didn't pay that much attention. My comment of it looked like a nice tool was based on it having a polished finish and the ratchet mechanism seemed smooth. The base RP ratchet (~$14) was hanging right next to the $25 one and it had a lower tooth count and the mechanism was noticeably rougher. The packaging allowed you to rotate the handle about a quarter turn and feel the ratchet mechanism. The lower tooth count is based only on my observation that the more expensive ratchet got more clicks in that 1/4 turn than the lower priced ratchet.

Regardless, you could be right on Craftsman going away. The problem is that Sears is not selling much of anything except Craftsman tools and Kenmore appliances. Those two things are keeping the company afloat. Because of that, they are making the tools as cheap as possible while keeping the same price level. I believe there are a lot of people who still just blindly buy Craftsman tools based on their reputation from the "old days". Whether Craftsman stays around will depend on whether these people continue to blindly buy. On the other hand, maybe someone picks up the Craftsman line from Sears and returns to making a quality tool and living up the old reputation.

It will be interesting to watch and find out.

 

[n8n]

Just checked online for C'man prices at my local Sears Hometown store:

20 Piece Combination set is $49.99, or $2.50 per wrench

12 piece Craftsman Professional set is $39.96, or $3.33 per wrench

10 piece ratcheting set is $34.99. or $3.49 per wrench.

A lot of crying about something you can buy for chump change, in my opinion.

It would be interesting to know how many C'man wrenches are lost, stolen, or sold as part of an estate sale compared to the number that are broken and replaced under warranty.

Also, my toolbox includes Snapon, Wright, Armstrong, and a half dozen other brands.

Craftsman is the only one that I can drive to town and pick up a replacement at Sears or the local hardware store (who also carries Craftsman) on demand if I ever break one.

$40-50 is chump change? That's lunch for a week! and the prices for singles are *significantly* higher, which is what I was using.

I completely disregard the sets as you cannot find any USA stock at all anymore.

and you don't have a local Lowe's? Given the China vs. Taiwan sourcing, I feel better about giving my dollars to Lowe's (for the time being anyway) if I need a wrench ASAP.

 

[CoyoteKyle]

Craftsman coo....
1..dead horse
2..It is what it is.
3..lots of other brand with USA to shop from (for now)

Couldn't agree more! Why is there a thread on this every week?

 

[finn]

The closest Lowe's is 110 miles, one way.

Why would you buy wrenches as a single piece, and who has better prices?

As I said, I'm not brand loyal to Craftsman, but I find it strange that there is so much (undeserved) animosity towards them over a commodity as simple and low tech as a hand tool.

 

[n8n]

The closest Lowe's is 110 miles, one way.

Why would you buy wrenches as a single piece, and who has better prices?

As I said, I'm not brand loyal to Craftsman, but I find it strange that there is so much (undeserved) animosity towards them over a commodity as simple and low tech as a hand tool.

Why would I buy sets at Sears? They're all Chinese now. The only utility of Sears to me is singles when I'm in a pinch. Lowe's is closer, their prices are comparable, and while I've heard rumors of Chinese sourcing, at least for now, everything I've considered buying from them is still Taiwan COO (for now?) Once Sears sells out of their USA open stock probably the only reason I'll have to go in there is for Knipex or Channellock stuff, or for their excellent plastic socket rails. If I were buying sets that would imply I was planning ahead and in that case I'd rather pay a little more and order e.g. Wright, SK, Proto, Williams etc. Etc. Etc. Online.

If you don't have a convenient Lowe's, um, well, I'm sorry? (Although I'm pissed at them too for getting rid of all their decent non-Kobalt tools, e.g. Klein, Greenlee, Channellock)

Sent from my XT897 using Tapatalk

 

[Dennis Leigh Henry]

Another thread... where I am guilty of beating this dead horse..again..

http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4551994#post4551994

I purchased a metric set of comb wrenches at Sears in downtown South Bend, must have been late 1970's or very early 1980's and it was one of the first metric sets available (as I recall) at the retail level .. and they were made in Japan. They are still hanging on my pegboard in my DIY garage...

Dennis

 

[Fishplate]

All of my broken Craftsman tools have been easily replaced at the store. As long as there's a store, that will continue.

Meanwhile, I have a box full of broken SnapOn and Mac sockets, because I never know where I can find the truck.

 

[n8n]

All of my broken Craftsman tools have been easily replaced at the store. As long as there's a store, that will continue.

Really? You got an equivalent replacement? Last time I broke a C'man tool (well, *I* didn't break it, a mechanic at my friend's shop did) it was a 1/2" flex handle. The old one was USA made and had nice detents in the head at 0, 45, and 90. The Chinese replacement that I got has no detents and just felt less well finished overall. I gave it away and bought a used Snap-On one (no detents on SO either, but love those snap on handles and you can always tighten or loosen the head to preference.)

Once the old USA open stock is gone, every tool you bring in for warranty will be a Chinese replacement of as yet unknown quality.

Sent from my XT897 using Tapatalk

 

[Miss_Sissy]

I find it strange how this group has a collective distain for Craftsman solely because they have elected to source hand tools from China,

That isn't my issue. I find that many of the Chinese Craftsman tools are of lower quality, substituting steel quantity for steel quality. I've seen it myself and others have documented it in photos:

(Chinese version on left)

yet this same group worships Milwaukee power tools

When my U.S. made Milwaukee drill got tired, I replaced it with a Hitachi, which was made in Japan. I did so because the Hitachi had a much smoother gear drive, was quieter, and just felt more precise than the Chinese-made Milwaukee drill (though I miss the more flexible cord on the Milwaukee).

Bend Pack lifts, Apple phones, and their social life is made possible by a multitude of mostly Chinese sourced computers, their morning coffee is brewed in a Chinese coffee pot

I have long said that China is capable of producing things to whatever quality one chooses to pay for. You can get electronics from China which look like they were assembled by woodland critters and you can get others, like the iPhone, that show superb workmanship.

When it comes to mechanical assemblies, some things require more precision than others. If your coffee pot is 0.3mm out of round or your Bend Pack lift has one arm that is 1mm longer than the other, that's not a big problem. Hand tools typically need a greater precision.

before they drive to work in their Japanese produced or designed car.

What does Japan have to do with this? I don't think most people believe that Japanese cars and Chinese cars are engineered and built to similar standards.

All of this is justified with a strange wrapping of false patriotism.

It's not "false patriotism" to prefer U.S. made products.

How do you spell hypocracy?

I spell it "hypocrisy."

 

[finn]

I guess you missed the joke about the spelling.

Hand tools are NOT precision devices.

 

[Miss_Sissy]

Hand tools are NOT precision devices.

So what do you set torque with? An air impact wrench?

ASME/ANSI standards for the jaw opening on a 1/2" open end wrench are 0.507" +/- 0.003". And that's just the minimum standards. Better quality tools are made to much tougher standards than that. You don't think that's a precision device?

Pick up a pair of German-made pliers from Knipex or Gedore and see how much play you feel in the pivot.

Look at the machining of hand tools for measuring -- dial calipers, micrometers, and angle finders, for example.

 

[finn]

Diesel fuel injection systems have clearances in the micron levels.

.003" is not precision

 

[66354dream]

You get what you pay for [/B]is the bottom line, Don't expect Snap On quality/precision for the craftsman price and you'll be fine,,, it hurt to see Craftsman go overseas but let's face it no matter what Craftsman does they're always going to get shitted on.

 

[AndrewV]

Lol, guys still going at it.
Notice op hasn't come back yet.

 

[n8n]

You get what you pay for [/B]is the bottom line, Don't expect Snap On quality/precision for the craftsman price and you'll be fine,,, it hurt to see Craftsman go overseas but let's face it no matter what Craftsman does they're always going to get shitted on.

Not true... they are doing some things right.

The pliers are still USA made and that makes me happy.

The ones that aren't are German made and look like a rebrand of Knipex. That makes me really, really happy. ($5 cheaper than the same Knipex pliers too.)

If C'man would actually produce a QUALITY product but still manage to undercut e.g. SK, Proto, Wright etc. I'd be ecstatic. But when it comes to sockets, ratchets, and wrenches - the bread and butter of hand tools - they aren't doing that.

 

[aafadca]

Blame the Chinese as much as you want, but the real enemy here is the Harvard (any top college will do here) educated businessman who, educated by America's finest, decides to repay his country for his fine upbringing by shipping manufacturing jobs out of the country in order to maximize his companies' profits.

THAT is what the problem is! So many people don't understand that companies decide to move offshore just to EXTREMELY maximize profits by selling their cheaply made products at American prices. But...then they complain when those same offshore companies begin making clones of those products and selling them at a fraction of the price! Until they start bringing the jobs back, I have no sympathy for them and will buy the clones when I can. I'll buy American whenever possible.

 

[Miss_Sissy]

Diesel fuel injection systems have clearances in the micron levels.

And that's completely irrelevant. The fact that I've got telescopes with mirrors and lenses figured to accuracies measured in nanometers doesn't mean that diesel fuel injection systems -- or hand tools -- are not precision devices.

.003" is not precision

We're going to have to disagree.

 

[Miss_Sissy]

THAT is what the problem is! So many people don't understand that companies decide to move offshore just to EXTREMELY maximize profits by selling their cheaply made products at American prices. But...then they complain when those same offshore companies begin making clones of those products and selling them at a fraction of the price!

That is a result of lobbyists for big business successfully quashing legislation, taxes, tariffs, and regulations that would penalize outsourcing.

Businesses, by and large, don't give a flying **** about the good of their employees or the country in which they are headquartered. If they did, then the middle class would not have seen wages remain stagnant for years as worker productivity has soared. Americans would not have seen profitable U.S. companies shutting down U.S. plants, laying off hundreds of thousands of American workers, and outsourcing their jobs.

It's all about CEOs, boards of directors, and big investors getting richer. If they can do that by laying off American workers and shipping their jobs overseas, they will. The CEO that made the decision to do that will probably be long gone with a golden parachute worth tens of millions long before the consumer backlash ever becomes a major issue.

 

[finn]

And that's completely irrelevant. The fact that I've got telescopes with mirrors and lenses figured to accuracies measured in nanometers doesn't mean that diesel fuel injection systems -- or hand tools -- are not precision devices.



We're going to have to disagree.

Fred: have you ever been in a factory that makes precision components, as opposed to a factory that makes something as crude as an open end wrench or a socket?

 

[Miss_Sissy]

Fred: have you ever been in a factory that makes precision components, as opposed to a factory that makes something as crude as an open end wrench or a socket?

No, I just worked at a firm that built satellites, space probes, and rockets, and that employed electron microscopes for QA and failure analysis. What would I know about precision?

Sarcasm aside, I understand that component A can be much more precisely machined than component B and still have both A and B be properly described as precision components.

While you may scoff at a .003" precision for a chrome-plated, heat-treated, mass-produced wrench, that's not something easy to achieve at a profit. And it's something that many vendors fail to achieve, as can be seen by wrenches that are too loose when gripping a bolt head. We've all seen and felt them.

 

[finn]

No, I just worked at a firm that built satellites, space probes, and rockets, and that employed electron microscopes for QA and failure analysis. What would I know about precision?

I'm surprised you consider a wrench to be a precision instrument, in that case, assuming that your response is affirmative that you are in fact familiar with the processes and equipment required to manufacture things.

My point is that the tools we are talking about seem to be logical candidates for sourcing to places like China if we take the emotion out of the discussion: Low tech, low capital investment requirements, and low consumer value.

As I said previously, more tools end up lost, stolen, at estate sales or otherwise discarded than replaced because they broke.

 

[Miss_Sissy]

My point is that the tools we are talking about seem to be logical candidates for sourcing to places like China if we take the emotion out of the discussion: Low tech, low capital investment requirements, and low consumer value.

I know that China has the capability to make high quality tools using high quality steel. But they will also produce low grade tools at a low price. And that's what bothers many people about the Chinese Craftsman tools. Sears didn't just outsource the manufacturing. They clearly, in many cases, lowered the quality of materials and standards for manufacturing in order to realize even greater savings.

That leaves consumers screwed.

1. The lifetime warranted, high-quality American-made tool gets replaced with a shoddily constructed Chinese tool.
2. People go in and buy a new Craftsman wrench when they lose one and suddenly it has the ginormous head that doesn't fit in tight places like the one it replaced.
3. Some people consciously paid more because the wanted to support American manufacturing and now they are getting a replacement tool made in China.

As I said previously, more tools end up lost, stolen, at estate sales or otherwise discarded than replaced because they broke.

It's not just a matter of breaking. It's a matter of how well it works. Well-made tools are a pleasure to use. Poorly made ones -- not so much.

 

[MarcioWilges]

I am not so particular about my tools, and I definitely don't want to get into a big debate about the importance about precision equipment because there's a time and place for all types of tools, but honestly, as long as the thing in my hand gets things fixed and moving again, no complaints from me!

 

[Cato]

As I said, I'm not brand loyal to Craftsman, but I find it strange that there is so much (undeserved) animosity towards them over a commodity as simple and low tech as a hand tool.

The feelings run deep regarding Craftsman - it's obviously personal.

Could it be that many of us grew up watching those Sears commercials with Bob Villa chanting Made in USA?

Now we find that after we spent thousands on Snap On, Sears has to go Chinese to compete with Husky and Lowes, we feel **** hurt?

I still buy Craftsman if I can find American made or the foreign stuff is comparable in price to Husky or Lowes.

Sears isn't going anywhere - its too big to fail. It's like GM. Regardless, lots of middle class people still look to Sears for refrigerators, washers, and yes Craftsman tools.

 

[finn]

Remember, Craftsman is simply a marketing name. Sears is a retailer and never made a single wrench.

I'm under the impression that the so called lobster claw is no longer offered in the latest line. I may be wrong about that, though, as I'm not in the market for yet another set of tools. .

I agree that high quality tools are a pleasure to use, but Sears thrust has been towards serving the homeowner for years. The average homeowner couldn't tell the difference between C'man and competitive tools like Kobalt, Crescent, MasterForce, etc. In fact, most homeowners increasingly get along fine with a limited, at best, set of tools. That trend is likely to accelerate as goods become more modular, more inexpensive, and ultimately (and sadly) more disposable.

The warranty argument is far overplayed, usually by the tool polisher crowd. The China ship has sailed, many moons ago.

 

[Miss_Sissy]

The warranty argument is far overplayed, usually by the tool polisher crowd.

No, it's not overplayed.

Rather than buy the Chinese-made Harbor Freight hex bit sockets, I paid considerably more to Lowe's for matching, made-in-the-USA SAE and metric 3/8" drive hex bit socket sets. They were nicely machined tools with a lifetime warranty with a big "Made In The USA" emblem, complete with flag, on the package. Not up to Snap-On or SK quality, but nice, nonetheless.

I recently broke the 3/16" hex bit. The replacement set they offered, which had a cheaper price, was a Chinese set with cheap plating, cruder machining and lettering, and hex tips that were about 1/4" longer than the set I had.

Even in the set they used for that product shot, the steel isn't a consistent color on the driver tips. That's not confidence-inspiring.

Look at the crude, rounded corners on the smaller size hex bits.

Sadly, that set looks better than the set I was offered in the store.

Snide remarks about "the tool polisher crowd" don't go very far in modern manufacturing facilities that have adopted 5-S (where one "S" stands for "Shine") and FOD control programs.

 

[Dennis Leigh Henry]

Not to let this prolong, but I thought I would chime in (without any preconceived intention of offending anyone) in an effort to explain what matters (IMHO) regarding precision and accuracy.. The website http://www.sophia.org/tutorials/accuracy-and-precision--3 does a fairly good job of explaining it, and has a very good picture / visual I've posted.

What matters here is accuracy and precision with regard to function. What is the function of a fuel injector? To accurately and precisely deliver a specific amount of fuel into a combustion chamber (in the case of an IC engine), such that the fuel is completely turned into usable power with manageable (i.e. acceptable to some government agency ~ us) byproducts. Think of a any tool similarly. To some extent it all boils down to function (and in many cases function over time). If one's life depends on it, I suspect the precision and accuracy of a tool are extremely important.. I use my tools for mostly DIY, and therefore desire some level of precision and accuracy. I want to insure whatever I do with my tools have some meager level of personal craftsmanship, and of course I want to do it safely.

I believe, as many have said, customer perception also matters outside of these characteristics. The feel of a good hand tool, power tool, precision measuring device to many on this board matters. To many others it does not matter.. and all flavors in between.

Being from the USA, I hold onto the desire to own tools made in the USA to the extent I can. Do I own tools made outside of the USA? Of course, cannot avoid it in some cases. I own Milwaukee tools designed here made elsewhere for example. Would I own a USA designed / made Black and Decker power tool? It will depend upon much of what I outlined above regarding accuracy, precision, function, and what I am willing to pay when that time comes. I will compare all the options and purchase accordingly, balancing my desire to purchase/own/sustain USA. Being a tool maker wannabe at heart, this also matters..

Sorry for the long diatribe above.. but thought I would attempt to help us get clear on the "precision" matter to some extent..

 

[GP0256]

I have bought craftsman tools all my 35yrs of fixing cars and other items around the house. Like my farther before me Craftsman has always been my choice in every category! The made in the USA motto meant more to me than any one purchase. There tools are made in Japan I think now so If I take a tool for it's warranty I will be traded for an out of country made tool? I did not sign on for this and don't think I will be made whole for any tool malfunction. When I by things made in the USA it means Americans Work. Doesn't that count anymore? How can I fill my feeling of monetary loss of value?

I was in the same boat as you and I kept breaking their new tools and wrenches as I traded them in for replacements. I just started buying Snap-On exclusively and "they" were right (All of the Snap-on users), they are expensive but the tolerances are better and they don't break. I feel your pain with Craftsman

 

[n8n]

The feelings run deep regarding Craftsman - it's obviously personal.

Could it be that many of us grew up watching those Sears commercials with Bob Villa chanting Made in USA?

That, and helping our fathers and grandfathers work on various cars, tractors, etc. with those same (or older) Craftsman tools.

Now we find that after we spent thousands on Snap On, Sears has to go Chinese to compete with Husky and Lowes, we feel **** hurt?

a) if Lowe's didn't have to "go chinese" then Sears didn't.
b) I'd have not spend nearly so much money on Snap-On, SK, etc. had Craftsman tools been better quality. They just weren't "good enough" anymore.
c) Yeah, it hurts more when an old friend deserts you than someone you just met last week (e.g. Harbor Freight)

I still buy Craftsman if I can find American made or the foreign stuff is comparable in price to Husky or Lowes.

I had a brief foray into Husky tools back when they were USA made and I didn't get a favorable impression of either the tools or their "lifetime warranty" but I have to ask, why would you pick Chinese Craftsman over Taiwan Kobalt?

Sears isn't going anywhere - its too big to fail. It's like GM. Regardless, lots of middle class people still look to Sears for refrigerators, washers, and yes Craftsman tools.

I think they're already experiencing death rattles. I see lots of empty parking spaces around the stores and lots of empty shelves (or pegs as the case may be) inside... and I live in a pretty densely populated area.

 

[softailgarage]

Yaaaaawnnn

 

[aafadca]

That is a result of lobbyists for big business successfully quashing legislation, taxes, tariffs, and regulations that would penalize outsourcing.

Businesses, by and large, don't give a flying **** about the good of their employees or the country in which they are headquartered. If they did, then the middle class would not have seen wages remain stagnant for years as worker productivity has soared. Americans would not have seen profitable U.S. companies shutting down U.S. plants, laying off hundreds of thousands of American workers, and outsourcing their jobs.

It's all about CEOs, boards of directors, and big investors getting richer. If they can do that by laying off American workers and shipping their jobs overseas, they will. The CEO that made the decision to do that will probably be long gone with a golden parachute worth tens of millions long before the consumer backlash ever becomes a major issue.

Yep!! I agree 100%. Unfortunately they blame it on the tax rates,etc. Maybe SOME type of incentive to bring the jobs back would help. Supposedly some are starting to come back on their own. Time will tell.