Craftsman =V= combo wrenches & "O" maker's mark?

[txlonghorn1989]

I have some vintage Craftsman combo wrenches. They are in the ==V== style or period. I've read the Craftsman historical articles at alloy-artifacts.org including the Maker-V info. They didn't mention a "O" manufacture mark. Does anyone know a date period for this particular set of wrenches and who would have made them?

Until I took the pics I hadn't noticed how different the marks were from each other on the different size wrenches. Is it the case that even with the smaller wrenches they would/should have the ==V==? If so then I can surmise that this isn't an original set and the original owner likely lost and replaced some wrenches or something along those lines?

I just cleaned up the smaller wrenches this morning by the way.

Thanks for any light you can throw in my direction!

 

[Bdgjr215]

I think it was moore drop forge that made those early ones .I believe but could be wrong but that o is just a casting mark of some sort.

 

[txlonghorn1989]

A couple of full-view pics...

 

[txlonghorn1989]

I think it was moore drop forge that made those early ones .I believe but could be wrong but that o is just a casting mark of some sort.

"...just a casting mark..." Really? Given what I've read and with so many different maker's marks for the Maker-V tools that seems counter-intuitive to me.

Anybody else got Craftsman tools with what appear to be alphabetical or numerical casting marks in the same spot as in these wrenches?

Now I'm even more curious about them.

 

[thehorse13]

Here ya go. This should quench your curiosity.

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84807

 

[Jim C.]

I always thought wrenches bearing the =V= manufacturer's mark were produced by Moore Drop Forge. I never associated a "0" with Moore or any other manufacturer. Although one may not agree, I too would have guessed that the "0" is just a casting mark applied by Moore. It's a nice set of vintage wrenches nonetheless. I do have a Craftsman =V= era 19/32" x 25/32" DBE wrench with a "0" in the same place as found on your wrenches. I also have several =V= era wrenches that bear a definite raised dot in the same location.

Jim C.

 

[jakemac]

From what I understand, the stamped in V is the manufacturers code (who made it), the O that you see cast into the wrench is a manufacturers mark and has nothing to do with identifying who made the wrench.. I don't think anyone knows for sure why it's there. It may denote a date, a production batch, a particular facility, or a manufacturing line. Or it could just be a cruel joke played on collectors like us.

You occasionally see similar letter marks on other manufacturers wrenches such as SK and Williams. A conundrum that the manufacturers never intended for the public to solve, or even ask about.

 

[Rileysan]

I always thought wrenches bearing the =V= manufacture's mark were produced by Moore Drop Forge. I never associated a "0" with Moore or any other manufacturer. Although one may not agree, I too would have guessed that the "0" is just a casting mark applied by Moore. It's a nice set of vintage wrenches nonetheless. I do have a Craftsman =V= era 19/32" x 25/32" DBE wrench with a "0" in the same place as found on your wrenches. I also have several =V= era wrenches that bear a definite raised dot in the same location.

Jim C.

As Jake was saying ... we can only speculate on the meaning of the 'O'.

I have Craftsman wrenches with 'AF' and 'N' as well. It could have something to do with the revision of the wrenches, the tooling, the location of where it was made (did Moore Drop Forge have only one production facility or many?), or god-only-knows what other reason.

I have posted pix in the DBE thread showing the 3 different Craftsman -V- shorty DBE wrenches of the same size, all with different dimensions, so we know there were revisions to the tools. We just don't know how (or if) they were tracked. My vote is the 'O' is some sort of revision code. But that's just my opinion.

Brian

 

[txlonghorn1989]

Here ya go. This should quench your curiosity.

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84807

horse,
After I posted I found that article but it didn't explain the "O" either. At least not that I found. If you believe it does I'd appreciate you pointing the snake out before it bites me! ;-)

Thanks!

 

[txlonghorn1989]

Ok. I'm outnumbered and I defer to everyone's expertise which is far beyond mine. I do appreciate everyone jumping in to help! Love the old tools & machines and the websites dedicated to folks like us. Great communities of like minded good folk!

 

[twertsy]

The more Craftsman (older) stuff I find, the more I don't believe the "-v-," "=v=," or any other mark necessarily represents a "manufacturer." Rather, I tend to believe it represents a "series" or "contract series" of tools, that could have been made by anyone. Brian's 3 wrench example referenced above is a very good indicator of this.

The classic example of this is the "BT" ratchet, supposedly made by Vlchek. I don't believe Vlchek ever made ratchets. I'm very confident that ratchet was made by New Britain. However, there are many other tools with a "BT" code that are obviously Vlchek.

I have a 1/2" drive swivel adaptor with a circle K mark that resembles NO other S-K adapter I have, and I have a couple dozen.

I have yet to come up with definitive proof, but I will continue seeking out proof until I can no longer walk the isles of a flea market.

 

[Jim C.]

The more Craftsman (older) stuff I find, the more I don't believe the "-v-," "=v=," or any other mark necessarily represents a "manufacturer." Rather, I tend to believe it represents a "series" or "contract series" of tools, that could have been made by anyone. Brian's 3 wrench example referenced above is a very good indicator of this.

The classic example of this is the "BT" ratchet, supposedly made by Vlchek. I don't believe Vlchek ever made ratchets. I'm very confident that ratchet was made by New Britain. However, there are many other tools with a "BT" code that are obviously Vlchek.

I have a 1/2" drive swivel adaptor with a circle K mark that resembles NO other S-K adapter I have, and I have a couple dozen.

I have yet to come up with definitive proof, but I will continue seeking out proof until I can no longer walk the isles of a flea market.

You know Todd, you might be right about that to some extent. Moore might have been a major supplier of Craftsman branded =V= wrenches, but other companies may have also produced =V= era wrenches too. I have a pretty good collection of =V= wrenches and have noticed that the =V= stamp is certainly not the same from set to set. They're frequently different. Some of the "vees" are narrow, some are wide, some are taller/shorter than others. The point is that those variances may indicate different manufacturers producing =V= wrenches at the same time. Good observation, but who knows for sure?

Imagine this, two guys are at the Moore Foundry in 1961 on their lunch break. One guy says, "Hey, let's put a "0" on the shanks of the next batch. Years from now, we'll know those were wrenches that you and me made back in the day." The other guy starts laughing and says, "Okay, and on top of that, it'll drive collectors nuts fifty years from now trying to figure out what the heck those zeros mean!"

Jim C.

 

[bmwrd0]

I would bet dollars to doughnuts that he V or K or BE etc. does not refer to the manufacturer, but rather the contracted. Say SK gets the contract to make Craftsman for a few years, but during that time the machinery that they use to make the ratchets has a defect, putting production behind be several months. Delays would ensue, but as they have a contract to make the product, they get on the horn to another company who has some spare capacity. And viola, you get K series ratchets that look nothing like an SK.

Not too different than the Bog rats you see with Plomb or Armstrong labeling. Contract is a contract, you got to keep it filled.

The O is just a casting mark, probably a way to identify the age of the mold.

 

[twertsy]

I would bet dollars to doughnuts that he V or K or BE etc. does not refer to the manufacturer, but rather the contracted. Say SK gets the contract to make Craftsman for a few years, but during that time the machinery that they use to make the ratchets has a defect, putting production behind be several months. Delays would ensue, but as they have a contract to make the product, they get on the horn to another company who has some spare capacity. And viola, you get K series ratchets that look nothing like an SK.

Not too different than the Bog rats you see with Plomb or Armstrong labeling. Contract is a contract, you got to keep it filled.

The O is just a casting mark, probably a way to identify the age of the mold.

I'm not sure about the age of the mold theory, but agree wholeheartedly with the rest. Vlchek, Lectrolite, S-K, Barcalo (at least) wrenches all have forged in alpha-numeric characters on their shanks. I tend to believe they are more of a date code or contract version/year system. But who knows until we know!?

 

[Zeeman]

I have some with O's and other numbers I believe.

 

[woody 73]

Does this mean that the code lists are not on the money as we were led to believe all these many years?

 

[twertsy]

Does this mean that the code lists are not on the money as we were led to believe all these many years?

I think in some cases yes, and in some cases no. Wilde made pliers are Wilde made pliers, and the B/P code applies. Based on a ton of examples, I'd say that at least the following codes are questionable at best in terms of being a single vendor (off the top of my head):
WF - punches / chisels
Square N - punches / chisels
Circle K - 3/4 socket wrench tools (although, I have a 1/2" wobble)
BT - socket wrench tools
CI
-V-
=V=
Circle G
BM
BC
BB

Essentially, most of the vendors from 1930 to 1970 (at least) are questionable, except NB, SO, Wilde, JPD and Plomb, those seem pretty solid.

 

[jakemac]

Given all the work, by many people, that went into creating that list, I'm inclined to believe it.
Even Lauver, who maintains that list, agrees that there may be exceptions and that the list is always subject to change whenever supportable evidence is found.

 

[Rileysan]

The more Craftsman (older) stuff I find, the more I don't believe the "-v-," "=v=," or any other mark necessarily represents a "manufacturer." Rather, I tend to believe it represents a "series" or "contract series" of tools, that could have been made by anyone. Brian's 3 wrench example referenced above is a very good indicator of this.

The classic example of this is the "BT" ratchet, supposedly made by Vlchek. I don't believe Vlchek ever made ratchets. I'm very confident that ratchet was made by New Britain. However, there are many other tools with a "BT" code that are obviously Vlchek.

I have a 1/2" drive swivel adaptor with a circle K mark that resembles NO other S-K adapter I have, and I have a couple dozen.

I have yet to come up with definitive proof, but I will continue seeking out proof until I can no longer walk the isles of a flea market.

I agree with this.

One example I can cite is P&C Tool Company. Pendleton Tool bought P&C in the 1940s. Almost immediately, the factory was used to fill orders by the US government for WWII. Tooling was clearly updated because the end products were now identical in nearly every way to the Plomb WF & N series of tools. After the P&C Tool name was discontinued in the late 60s, production continued at that site for another 20 years - making Proto & Challenger tools.

Based on that example alone, I think we can agree that not all Plomb/Proto/Challenger tools were made in just one factory - and they're not even the biggest player in the market.

I think it's a reasonable statement to say that the Sears Craftsman brand of hand tools were the most widely available and common brand of tool in North America, if not the world. I think it highly unlikely that Moore Drop Forge, Easco, or Danaher Corp each produced Craftsman tools out of one production facility.

According to this Wikipedia article, Danaher acquired 12 companies in its first two years of existence "as part of a strategy to enter the manufacturing business". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danaher_Corporation

Short of acquiring corporate records or speaking first hand to one of the production engineers from Moore Drop Forge, Easco, or Danaher, we will never truly know where or how many tools were produced, how many revisions were made to the end products & tooling, or if contracts were outsourced and to whom. I think the mysterious raised letters will forever remain a mystery.

Brian

 

[3baygarage]

I think in some cases yes, and in some cases no. Wilde made pliers are Wilde made pliers, and the B/P code applies. Based on a ton of examples, I'd say that at least the following codes are questionable at best in terms of being a single vendor (off the top of my head):
WF - punches / chisels
Square N - punches / chisels
Circle K - 3/4 socket wrench tools (although, I have a 1/2" wobble)
BT - socket wrench tools
CI
-V-
=V=
Circle G
BM
BC
BB

Essentially, most of the vendors from 1930 to 1970 (at least) are questionable, except NB, SO, Wilde, JPD and Plomb, those seem pretty solid.

Twertsy, the circle K stuff that comes to mind is of course the SK made 3/4". Are you saying you have a swivel that looks non- SK? Or other pieces do?

 

[thehorse13]

Has anyone tried to make contact with any of the production engineers from the aforementioned tool companies? I know that I've done this with engineers at large automakers when things could not be answered elsewhere.

 

[twertsy]

Twertsy, the circle K stuff that comes to mind is of course the SK made 3/4". Are you saying you have a swivel that looks non- SK? Or other pieces do?

I'm saying I have a Craftsman 1/2" drive swivel adapter, marked circle K, that resembles no other S-K swivel I own.

Sent from my VS990 using Tapatalk

 

[3baygarage]

Ah, I was going to ask for a pic but a quick search led me to pics you had on the GG. That's neat. I don't remember seeing that one or any other 1/2 tools. I might assume SK based on the mark, but hard to compare.

 

[twertsy]

Here are a couple mystery Cman tools. First is a pic of the circle K adapter. Second are some oddly coded wrenches, with the infamous N4 forged in mark. Lastly, a lonely uncoded wrench.

 

[d42jeep]

None of these wrenches have the conventional V marking but two have some cast in mystery codes.
-Don

 

[twertsy]

I think it's time for a "Show your Oddly Marked/Unconventional Craftsman Tools" thread...............(I plan on starting one this afternoon)

 

[Jim C.]

I think it's time for a "Show your Oddly Marked/Unconventional Craftsman Tools" thread...............(I plan on starting one this afternoon)

Might be a fun thread..... I have a few Craftsman mistakes. I'm in.

 

[rickhigginshtbr]

I'm going with the O either being a certain casting or production facility. I've never really looked at mine, but in the =V= series, I know I've seen O and V there, if not other markings.