Craftsman V Series...

[Andres26tnt]

I never said anything about a 30 ratchet or wanting cheap bargain anything. Don’t put words in my mouth. I get that USA mid tier isn’t available now. Maybe if you’d read my entire posts instead of the first line we could have a reasonable conversation. I’ve spent a lot with snap on. I’m looking for quality

You said you want mid tier, what is mid tier pricing?

 

[Toold_up]

Clearly you haven't. You aren't getting mid tier pricing on USA items as no factories make them. Yeah doesn't matter what you have in your box. I have all snap-on, SK, Mac, proto. So what you are saying is you put your money where your mouth is? But aren't willing to pay those prices for USA craftsman(snap-on pricing)? Huh you want cheap mid tier pricing, what is mid tier pricing? 30$ for a ratchet, sorry not happening. Maybe 70 to 100$ like all those SK rebrands. But even those prices aren't in the budget for the typical craftsman buyers. I mean y'all complain about a cheap 20$ ratchet .

He never said that, either your reading comprehension is ******, or you're a troll.

 

[Andres26tnt]

He never said that, either your reading comprehension is ******, or you're a troll.

He doesn't want mid tier pricing? Or want craftsman to produce USA made tools at mid tier prices? What is mid tier pricing in the USA market? What does he mean by middle ground? Isn't that middle tier? Y'all need to understand that mid tier pricing has a huge ground to cover. Also the mid prices he want are from the old craftsman at a different economy.

 

[mrjaw14]

I never said that either. Mid-tier is what ever the market is at the time. you're the one stuck in the 90s.

This is a forum. where people talk and express opinions. If you don't agree, that's ok...but let us not descend into telling everyone why their opinion is wrong...that's what our wives are for

 

[Andres26tnt]

I never said that either. Mid-tier is what ever the market is at the time. you're the one stuck in the 90s.

This is a forum. where people talk and express opinions. If you don't agree, that's ok...but let us not descend into telling everyone why their opinion is wrong...that's what our wives are for

A good, it's at whatever the market is at the time. Good point, I wonder what USA tools market pricing is at in today's market . Point made. I think we know who is stuck in the 90s . I understand craftsman can't possibly fill everyone expectations, specifically for USA made items. Higher quality means, higher prices period. The V line does in fact have a higher quality as it's almost all rebranded facom.

 

[neophyte]

If that's the case, then why make the premium stuff? Craftsman was known as inexpensive tools that got the job done. If the inexpensive raised panel stuff is selling so well, why step into the premium tool realm, especially when SBD owns premium tool brands (MAC and Proto)?

The whole V series thing reminds me of when Sears tried to do the Craftsman Industrial line. Nobody knew about it until it was clearanced.

Maybe the Craftsman name was cursed by some voodoo lady from way back and is just doomed no matter what.

Craftsman literally had a “Craftsman Professional” range of tools at Sears for at least 20 years, many of which were well regarded, including on GJ.
The Craftsman Professional range of tools were not always US made, but generally were very good tools, and usually rebrands of actual industrial brand tools.
The Craftsman Professional hacksaw for instance, was a rebranded Bahco high leverage quick blade release hacksaw, made by Bahco, and currently sold under the Snap-On brand.
The Craftsman Professional Flare wrenches were rebranded SK Superkrome flare wrenches.
The Craftsman Crossforce wrenches, were rebranded Armstrong Maxx wrenches, although with a thinner plating, and without the jaw notch.
Facom, one of the current makers of the V-series tools, and Knipex, also supplied tools to the Craftsman professional range.

Stanley is just trying to give the best marketing to the Craftsman range as possible, while still having affordable tools for the general consumer.
So the discerning tool buyer can purchase the V-series range, and the average consumer can buy the regular range, which seems to be decent enough quality, if not always absolutely top of the line.

 

[neophyte]

youre telling me the only way to get USA is tool truck prices? Not buying it. The import stuff is priced where USA was priced. That’s the issue. The import stuff is over priced and forced the USA made middle out of business. That and the people buying imported middle priced stuff that should be the low-tier priced goods.

“ INFLATION “

 

[haneyrm]

I know this is probably useless info but my sister was laid off by SBD in Baltimore a few weeks before Christmas. Said they are having some internal issues and will likely be streamlining their brands. This may have just been an excuse though to get rid of her. LOL.

 

[neophyte]

oh I agree 100%. once the masses accepted import at USA mid-tier prices it was over. But my whole point of posting was the V series feels extra cheap compared to even the regular craftsman ratchets that are out now.

Imports have been an issue in the United States since before it was the United States.
Some of this had to do with local laws, for instance the British Colonies weren’t supposed to manufacture their own steel, something which got ignored, so that what became the USA eventually became one of the world’s largest steel and tool manufacturers.
The rise of imports competing, or out competing US manufacturing has come and gone multiple times over the years.
Sears tried importing their Craftsman tools back during the 1960s or 1970s, then later dropped that, for a “Craftsman tools are US made” philosophy, (which wasn’t quite completely true), but then went back to cheap imports when Sears was on its deathbed.

 

[Toold_up]

Craftsman literally had a “Craftsman Professional” range of tools at Sears for at least 20 years, many of which were well regarded, including on GJ.
The Craftsman Professional range of tools were not always US made, but generally were very good tools, and usually rebrands of actual industrial brand tools.
The Craftsman Professional hacksaw for instance, was a rebranded Bahco high leverage quick blade release hacksaw, made by Bahco, and currently sold under the Snap-On brand.
The Craftsman Professional Flare wrenches were rebranded SK Superkrome flare wrenches.
The Craftsman Crossforce wrenches, were rebranded Armstrong Maxx wrenches, although with a thinner plating, and without the jaw notch.
Facom, one of the current makers of the V-series tools, and Knipex, also supplied tools to the Craftsman professional range.

Stanley is just trying to give the best marketing to the Craftsman range as possible, while still having affordable tools for the general consumer.
So the discerning tool buyer can purchase the V-series range, and the average consumer can buy the regular range, which seems to be decent enough quality, if not always absolutely top of the line.

Irrelevant. Sears is not an umbrella corporation of tool manufacturers.

SBD owns premium tool brands. Why would they cheapen and compete with their own brands with the economy Craftsman name? One market space SBD did not have was garden equipment. It made sense for them to purchase Craftsman and start selling garden tractors. Then they are increasing their market share and their only competition is other companies. Adding another tool brand to their name for purposes OTHER than squatting on the brand name... I'm not so sure about that.

What really bothers me about the whole Craftsman story is how they started and made big promises about investing in America, then did an about face! I remember the Craftsman website homepage had a map of America and little bubbles that you could click on and it would show you what was made in that area and even had worker testimonials. They pushed very hard to market the brand as promoting Americans and American manufacturing. I support business that want to invest in America, and I am saddened by their abandonment of that campaign. DeWalt no longer manufactures power tools here in America either.

I don't know what comes next for Craftsman, but I believe it will look something like this:

 

[Dh3256]

Do they? You sound very confident in your claims, do you have any type of evidence To support your position?

Of course, the information is available in the annual report, as well as articles in trade journals such as Tools of the Trade.

 

[mrjaw14]

“ INFLATION “

no. Inflation hits all tiers. All tiers have gone up in price, and actual price is irrelevant to the discussion. No one is saying a socket set should cost what it did 20 years ago. Tool truck brands charge a premium for come to you service and the expectation of warranty in a professional environment. The tool itself doesn't cost that much to make relative to the sales price. There was a lower tier, what I'm calling mid-tier, that cost less than tool trucks but was still US made. That could still be the case today. When Craftsman off-shored but cost the same as the USA made versions, and gearwrench and other import brands came in, and people accepted the tools that price point, that is when it became uneconomical to manufacture in the USA.

If joe homeowner had rejected those imports the situation would be different today. The issue is joe homeowner who doesn't work on his own stuff anymore who doesn't know the difference between well refined wrenches and the lobster claw **** that came after it at the same price. Most of us here that care already have our tools and there's only so many sets we can practically have. Where I start getting frustrated is when I try to find a US made semi-deep socket set and there's literally only one option I can find. I'm going to buy it, but it's still sad there's no competition there. I get there's no going back to that, but we're old farts to like to talk about how things used to be

back to the topic at hand, the V series 1/4 flex head I had in my hands over the weekend was very poor quality. The head was huge and chunky, plastic selector switch, no way to take it apart, etc. I'm sure some of the V series is ok stuff. Some of it as mentioned is rebranded from other lines that aren't bad. I may could have bought a needle oiler and chucked it in the drill and loosened it up but the rest of it was such poor quality I was afraid the chrome was thin and would start pealing. What I thought was interesting was the other craftsman line actually looked and felt better! Definitely a buyer be aware. now if they start making some of the facom 440 XL wrench sets in SAE and Metric under the craftsman name I may be in line for a set

 

[Hakeem]

Of course, the information is available in the annual report, as well as articles in trade journals such as Tools of the Trade.

I wasn’t able to find the info you cited in the SBD annual report, and I wasn’t able to access Tools of the Trade without a subscription. Can you please link or quote some of the info you reference?

 

[Toold_up]

Where I start getting frustrated is when I try to find a US made semi-deep socket set and there's literally only one option I can find. I'm going to buy it, but it's still sad there's no competition there. I get there's no going back to that, but we're old farts to like to talk about how things used to be

I hear ya and feel the same way. We could go back to having a manufacturing base here in this country, but it requires companies to INVEST IN AMERICA (i'm pointing at you SBD)! To get companies to invest in America it needs to be profitable for them to do so. In our current state of affairs it's more profitable for the manufacturing to be done over seas and ship the goods back here to be sold. That's possible due to UNFAIR TRADE. To correct that, the gov't needs to add tariffs to foreign goods which will protect the domestic market and give incentive for companies to open manufacturing centers here. It's going to be painful and there will be a lot of belly aching, but it is possible and honestly I believe it would make a better future if we had more manufacturing in this country versus the current customer service base.

back to the topic at hand, the V series 1/4 flex head I had in my hands over the weekend was very poor quality. The head was huge and chunky, plastic selector switch, no way to take it apart, etc. I'm sure some of the V series is ok stuff. Some of it as mentioned is rebranded from other lines that aren't bad. I may could have bought a needle oiler and chucked it in the drill and loosened it up but the rest of it was such poor quality I was afraid the chrome was thin and would start pealing. What I thought was interesting was the other craftsman line actually looked and felt better!

^ All things being equal (quality and price), which product would you pick, #1 imported tool or #2 domestic tool?


Any before any bird brain chimes in making false statements about what I wrote here, I do support trade and competition, but only when it's fair!

 

[mrjaw14]

Fair point, and there's plenty of imports I really like, knipex, pb swiss, Ko-ken etc who are raising the bar instead of lowering it. not to get political but I start getting concerned when I see reports of Taiwanese reunification with China lately. That situation seems really unstable. They very well may go to war at some point and then we may be up a creek. I think for the sake of national interests we need to make certain things here. We couldn't restart US manufacturing for things like TP without the tools to do it. For that reason I'm glad that the government is essentially propping up part of the US tool industry. That's why it's so sad to hear that the investment in US plants didn't work out. That's also why I support US mfrs whenever I can. I support American jobs creation, but if they could have made a factory work here that was 100% automated with no job creation I would have supported that too just to have it on our soil.

There are some things that are difficult to get here in the US that I wish they'd import and bring over. The V series I'm interested would be the imported stuff from Europe or Japan that are rebrands of the good stuff as opposed to the imports of the not so good stuff. Just have to sort through it and find out what's junk and what's gold.

 

[neophyte]

Irrelevant. Sears is not an umbrella corporation of tool manufacturers.

SBD owns premium tool brands. Why would they cheapen and compete with their own brands with the economy Craftsman name? One market space SBD did not have was garden equipment. It made sense for them to purchase Craftsman and start selling garden tractors. Then they are increasing their market share and their only competition is other companies. Adding another tool brand to their name for purposes OTHER than squatting on the brand name... I'm not so sure about that.

What really bothers me about the whole Craftsman story is how they started and made big promises about investing in America, then did an about face! I remember the Craftsman website homepage had a map of America and little bubbles that you could click on and it would show you what was made in that area and even had worker testimonials. They pushed very hard to market the brand as promoting Americans and American manufacturing. I support business that want to invest in America, and I am saddened by their abandonment of that campaign. DeWalt no longer manufactures power tools here in America either.

I don't know what comes next for Craftsman, but I believe it will look something like this:

Stanley soent 90+ million dollars trying to expand US production, with streamlined more efficient processes, but then chose to dump the factory, after repeated issues with the process not quite working, and production delays, and delays with parts and machinery delivery.
Stanley Literally tried, and put a crapload of money at stake trying.
They ditched the line, around the time there were numerous predictions of an upcoming recession, around the same time other brands, including Milwaukee, also ditched facilities they had purchased or leased.
As much as people like to comment about Stanley being braindead f@ckheads, the company is more than a century and a half old, and are still one of the World’s largest tool manufacturers.

 

[Toold_up]

Stanley soent 90+ million dollars trying to expand US production, with streamlined more efficient processes, but then chose to dump the factory, after repeated issues with the process not quite working, and production delays, and delays with parts and machinery delivery.
Stanley Literally tried, and put a crapload of money at stake trying.
They ditched the line, around the time there were numerous predictions of an upcoming recession, around the same time other brands, including Milwaukee, also ditched facilities they had purchased or leased.
As much as people like to comment about Stanley being braindead f@ckheads, the company is more than a century and a half old, and are still one of the World’s largest tool manufacturers.

Yeah I guess they are just unlucky.

 

[neophyte]

no. Inflation hits all tiers. All tiers have gone up in price, and actual price is irrelevant to the discussion. No one is saying a socket set should cost what it did 20 years ago. Tool truck brands charge a premium for come to you service and the expectation of warranty in a professional environment. The tool itself doesn't cost that much to make relative to the sales price. There was a lower tier, what I'm calling mid-tier, that cost less than tool trucks but was still US made. That could still be the case today. When Craftsman off-shored but cost the same as the USA made versions, and gearwrench and other import brands came in, and people accepted the tools that price point, that is when it became uneconomical to manufacture in the USA.

If joe homeowner had rejected those imports the situation would be different today. The issue is joe homeowner who doesn't work on his own stuff anymore who doesn't know the difference between well refined wrenches and the lobster claw **** that came after it at the same price. Most of us here that care already have our tools and there's only so many sets we can practically have. Where I start getting frustrated is when I try to find a US made semi-deep socket set and there's literally only one option I can find. I'm going to buy it, but it's still sad there's no competition there. I get there's no going back to that, but we're old farts to like to talk about how things used to be

back to the topic at hand, the V series 1/4 flex head I had in my hands over the weekend was very poor quality. The head was huge and chunky, plastic selector switch, no way to take it apart, etc. I'm sure some of the V series is ok stuff. Some of it as mentioned is rebranded from other lines that aren't bad. I may could have bought a needle oiler and chucked it in the drill and loosened it up but the rest of it was such poor quality I was afraid the chrome was thin and would start pealing. What I thought was interesting was the other craftsman line actually looked and felt better! Definitely a buyer be aware. now if they start making some of the facom 440 XL wrench sets in SAE and Metric under the craftsman name I may be in line for a set

If Snap-On is considered the “Top Tier”, then a brand like Proto (owned by Stanley) JH Williams (owned by Snap-On), Wright, and Martin, are probably the actual “Mid Tier”brands , at least as far as price goes.
Armstrong and SK (maybe) would have been included on that list 20 years ago as well.

SK was in a bit of a gray zone, as was Blackhawk (by Proto) since both were American made, but sometimes with some import tools in the mix, and price wise, both were closer to Sears Craftsman Professional, than to Proto.
“Upper low tier”, or “Lower Mid Tier” might be a better description, although decent in quality.
The regular Craftsman raised panel wrenches were “Low Tier” at least as far as price went, and sometimes, but not always performance. with the Harbor Freight offerings usually being “sh!t” tier, but not always.
The main reason Craftsman could make the low price tools they did, was by piggybacking off existing US manufacturers, who madd the more expensive tools, and by providing volume purchases.
Once it became widely known that certain tool brands like Craftsman were basically rebranded mid tier tools, it cut into the profits of the actual mid tier brands.
Also, once Craftsman stopped selling enough volume of the cheap tools, costs either had to rise, or the tools had to become imports, because low cost, and low volume usually don’t work together, except for certain niche products.

 

[JradM]

SBD owns premium tool brands. Why would they cheapen and compete with their own brands with the economy Craftsman name? One market space SBD did not have was garden equipment. It made sense for them to purchase Craftsman and start selling garden tractors. Then they are increasing their market share and their only competition is other companies. Adding another tool brand to their name for purposes OTHER than squatting on the brand name... I'm not so sure about that.

Craftsman is huge. Like hundreds of millions of dollars in retail sales per year huge. The fact that so many people lament the Craftsman brand of olde suggests to me the name still has beaucoup cachet.

I think there are many other reasons besides entering new product categories for SBD to have bought the brand - not just marketing either. For example, they entered an exclusivity agreement with Lowes when the brand launched under the SBD umbrella. Do you think Lowes would have done that with Stanley-branded tools instead? Nobody would have cared.

What really bothers me about the whole Craftsman story is how they started and made big promises about investing in America, then did an about face!

No. They. Didn't.

They spent substantial money pursuing that plan - and it failed. If you want to get mad at them for not chasing bad money with good, ok.

However, they announced a plan, tried it, failed, then did an "about face". They certainly could have continued losing money on their giant USA factory, or gone about it differently in the first place (saving Western Forge for example). I don't care to defend Craftsman, but I think it's only fair to criticize SBD for what they did, not what we imagine they did.

 

[four.cycle]

and are still one of the World’s largest tool manufacturers.

one of?

All of this "let's bash SBD" stuff is nutty.
They made a business decision, pure and simple.
Had nothing to do with lies, deception, or any of the other "reasons" suggested here.
It was 100% business. No more, no less.

Is SBD telling you how to run YOUR business?
They're just doing a terrible job, aren't they?

 

[finn]

“ INFLATION “

The old USA made mid priced tools, eg SK, Armstrong, etc are long gone and the factories closed because they were money losers at the prices people were willing to pay for them.

 

[Toold_up]

Is SBD telling you how to run YOUR business?
They're just doing a terrible job, aren't they?

Ohhh good read! It seems that their sales in North America are down and are being carried by global sales. DeWalt seems to be the main source of income as far as tool sales go. Also they hint that Craftsman isn't doing so well, but they hope sales will pick up if consumer spending picks up.

Also note that they are reducing expenses and consolidating manufacturing facilities.

 

[four.cycle]

^ Nothing out of the ordinary there. They are a GLOBAL operation. Meaning: U.S. sales may or may not exceed the combined total of global sales outside the U.S.

They are still very much in business, and still very much the largest tool manufacturer on the planet.

"Craftsman" will do just fine notwithstanding all of the crazy "doomsday" predictions of GarageJournal.com members, clearly some of whom have only visited one "Lowes" location during their lifetimes.

 

[Toold_up]

From the quarterly earnings meeting regarding tariffs:

"And some of that would be potentially moving things from China to other parts of Asia, maybe to Mexico, we'll see
but likely to other parts of Asia. And so unlikely that we're moving a lot back to the US, because it's just not cost
effective to do. And there's questions about whether we even have the labor to actually do that in this country"


So much for 70% of Craftsman being made in America. I wish they would have reduced their footprint to at least meet that goal once. The initial campaign of reshoring Craftsman was a farce. They closed down the existing plants here in America that were full of skilled workers. I'm saddened by their lack of confidence in Americans.

 

[Toold_up]

Question about North American Tools & Outdoor sales response:


"Yeah. So I think there's a few things in there. One would be that first and foremost, our POS was modestly
negative in the quarter. And that's what we expected, and we had talked about that probably being the case as we
– one of the dynamics is, as we rolled off of what was an earlier start to the outdoor season, we kind of
normalized in Q3. Secondarily, we do see there being much more momentum and strength on the professional
than there would be on the DIY-er.

And if you look at some of the underlying kind of metrics that we look at in the marketplace to explain that, there's
obviously consumer sentiment, but then there's also the activity levels for R&R activity. which are notably down
this year. And I think that, that's probably having a pretty significant effect on what we're seeing in the DIY-er as
well."



Basically Craftsman is a flop.

 

[JradM]

The initial campaign of reshoring Craftsman was a farce. They closed down the existing plants here in America that were full of skilled workers. I'm saddened by their lack of confidence in Americans.

SBD didn't close down any plants - unless you mean by not contracting with the same suppliers as Sears they caused those 3rd parties to lose business.

That's a weird chain of logic though. SBD bought the branding. SBD is also a tool manufacturer. They COULD have just farmed out the contracts to other manufacturers, but those are their competitors.

Sears also could have continued contracting and manufacturing "Craftsman" tools with Western Forge, for example, but their business basically went kaput.

Instead SBD tried to open a new factory to make Craftsman-branded tools in the USA. They failed. Their pleadings disclose why, they claim, that happened.

 

[Toold_up]

SBD didn't close down any plants - unless you mean by not contracting with the same suppliers as Sears they caused those 3rd parties to lose business.

That's a weird chain of logic though. SBD bought the branding. SBD is also a tool manufacturer. They COULD have just farmed out the contracts to other manufacturers, but those are their competitors.

Sears also could have continued contracting and manufacturing "Craftsman" tools with Western Forge, for example - but their business basically went kaput.

Yes they did, they opened and closed the experimental Dallas plant, and closed the power tools plants. I want to say there was something else, but it's not coming to mind.


More from their meeting praising professional (DeWalt) sales and blasting consumer (Craftsman) sales:

"Beginning with Tools & Outdoor, third quarter revenue was approximately $3.3 billion, down 2% organically
versus prior year. DEWALT was a bright spot, delivering its sixth consecutive quarter of organic growth as the
brand continues to attract demand across the Tools & Outdoor product line. Price was plus 1% in the quarter, a
weak consumer and DIY backdrop contributed to volumes declining 3%, with currency impacting revenue by
another 1%.

Third quarter adjusted segment margin rate was 11.1%, a 180 basis point improvement compared to the third
quarter last year. Our supply chain transformation continues to help us deliver year-over-year margin expansion,
while also funding our deliberate increase in growth investments.

Turning to the product line performance for the third quarter. Power Tools declined 1% organically due to softness
in consumer and DIY brands. On the positive side, DEWALT cordless products grew in the quarter. Volume was
also supported by the initial holiday season sell-in across our priority brands. We are excited by a great lineup of
offerings that will be available to our end users in the fourth quarter.

Hand Tools faced similar pressure from the consumer environment and organic revenue was down 3%. However,
we saw a strong customer response to our recent product launches of the DEWALT TOUGHSYSTEM 2.0 DXL
storage lineup as well as our expansion in the material handling space with the construction jack. These
innovative new products designed to enhance end user safety and productivity were meaningful contributors to
the DEWALT sales growth in the quarter."

 

[Toold_up]

Tools & Outdoor net sales were down 3% versus third quarter 2023, driven by volume (-3%) and currency (-1%), partially offset by price (+1%). Organic revenue was down 2%, as growth in DEWALT was offset by the weak consumer and DIY backdrop. Regional organic revenues* were: North America (-4%), Europe (+1%) and rest of world (+6%). The Tools & Outdoor segment margin was 10.0%, up 190 basis points versus prior year. Adjusted segment margin* was 11.1%, up 180 basis points versus third quarter 2023, primarily due to supply chain transformation benefits, which were partially offset by growth investments.


^ I just want everybody to see that and let it sink in.

 

[Toold_up]

The Global Cost Reduction Program generated $105 million of incremental pre-tax run-rate cost savings in third quarter 2024. Since inception of the program in mid-2022, the Company has generated approximately $1.4 billion in pre-tax run-rate savings and reduced inventory by over $2 billion.

https://www.costar.com/article/481360574/worlds-largest-toolmaker-to-close-two-us-manufacturing-facilities

 

[Steve_P]

I hear ya and feel the same way. We could go back to having a manufacturing base here in this country, but it requires companies to INVEST IN AMERICA (i'm pointing at you SBD)! To get companies to invest in America it needs to be profitable for them to do so. In our current state of affairs it's more profitable for the manufacturing to be done over seas and ship the goods back here to be sold. That's possible due to UNFAIR TRADE.

It's not unfair trade; it's simply a comparison of the cost of living across the globe. People in Vietnam and India are willing to work at a forge or foundry for a few dollars an hour; in China and Mexico manufacturing labor is something like $6/hr and Taiwan $12/hr- last I checked. Are you willing to work in a forge or foundry for even $12/hr? I'm guessing no, and guessing none of us are, but some like to blame everything but reality. China has vastly improved their living standards over the last 20 years; and now because of the resulting increased labor costs they're losing jobs to Vietnam and India. We used to make stuff in the US north, then we moved it to Alabama to be made at lower costs (unfair trade?), then Mexico, China, India....

Should the 99.99...% of Americans that don't work in a USA socket factory be forced to pay 3X+ as much for a socket, or widget, to subsidize those few USA jobs instead of buying one from Taiwan or elsewhere? Should the 90% that don't work a manufacturing job be forced to pay.... You want to talk about inflation.

It's been said a thousand times here, "99% of Americans just want cheap ****". They don't care about COO, only price; this is why something like 70% of the goods on Amazon are from China. We got here not because of "unfair trade", it's primarily because the vast majority of Americans just want cheap ****; we did this to ourselves.

I'm in a $7.25 minimum wage state and every local fast-food restaurant has had signs out front for years trying to hire at $13+ an hour. The local auto parts manufacturing plant has never had to advertise for help until the last 5 years and now they're begging for help at $18/hr; they've hit the applicant bottom of the barrel so hard that they don't even require a HS diploma anymore. Problem is that they've overexpanded and exceeded the number of local workers that can pass a drug test and want to start working on second or third shift. I guess some people would rather make a few $ less and work first shift stocking shelves at Target.

People here love to glorify the "good old days" where you could work a manufacturing job and raise a family, buy a house.... The reality is a lot of those jobs were **** jobs and the only thing that made them desirable, or even tolerable, was because they had union wages and benefits; that pretty much went away decades ago. Even the "good" jobs in manufacturing, where you're not in hell, you can be doing the same exact task every twenty seconds, or 1400+ times in 8 hours; I'd want to shoot myself in the head after the first day, or maybe hour

 

[Toold_up]

It's not unfair trade; it's simply a comparison of the cost of living across the globe. People in Vietnam and India are willing to work at a forge or foundry for a few dollars an hour; in China and Mexico manufacturing labor is something like $6/hr and Taiwan $12/hr- last I checked. Are you willing to work in a forge or foundry for even $12/hr? I'm guessing no, and guessing none of us are, but some like to blame everything but reality. China has vastly improved their living standards over the last 20 years; and now because of the resulting increased labor costs they're losing jobs to Vietnam and India. We used to make stuff in the US north, then we moved it to Alabama to be made at lower costs (unfair trade?), then Mexico, China, India....

Should the 99.99...% of Americans that don't work in a USA socket factory be forced to pay 3X+ as much for a socket, or widget, to subsidize those few USA jobs instead of buying one from Taiwan or elsewhere? Should the 90% that don't work a manufacturing job be forced to pay.... You want to talk about inflation.

It's been said a thousand times here, "99% of Americans just want cheap ****". They don't care about COO, only price; this is why something like 70% of the goods on Amazon are from China. We got here not because of "unfair trade", it's primarily because the vast majority of Americans just want cheap ****; we did this to ourselves.

I'm in a $7.25 minimum wage state and every local fast-food restaurant has had signs out front for years trying to hire at $13+ an hour. The local auto parts manufacturing plant has never had to advertise for help until the last 5 years and now they're begging for help at $18/hr; they've hit the applicant bottom of the barrel so hard that they don't even require a HS diploma anymore. Problem is that they've overexpanded and exceeded the number of local workers that can pass a drug test and want to start working on second or third shift. I guess some people would rather make a few $ less and work first shift stocking shelves at Target.

People here love to glorify the "good old days" where you could work a manufacturing job and raise a family, buy a house.... The reality is a lot of those jobs were **** jobs and the only thing that made them desirable, or even tolerable, was because they had union wages and benefits; that pretty much went away decades ago. Even the "good" jobs in manufacturing, where you're not in hell, you can be doing the same exact task every twenty seconds, or 1400+ times in 8 hours; I'd want to shoot myself in the head after the first day, or maybe hour

So you are okay with slavery as long as you get inexpensive goods?


How many people do you know working at a fast food place that make $13+ an hour? I have kids who have applied to those fast food places boasting high wages, but the reality is that those jobs don't exist. The local franchise DOES NOT SET THE SALARY. Those signs are a lie.


As far as finding people who can pass a drug test being difficult, I blame that on our culture. If more parents would raise their children to not glorify and mimic bad behavior that wouldn't be a problem.


You do not sound like the type of person who would enjoy working in a factory, so please don't get a job working at a factory and wind up killing your self. Nobody is forcing anybody here in America to work. Some people would enjoy working a "boring" and monotonous job, don't deprive them the opportunity to utilize their talents and finding accomplishment with work. Not everybody is like you.

 

[JradM]

Yes they did, they opened and closed the experimental Dallas plant, and closed the power tools plants. I want to say there was something else, but it's not coming to mind.

You're right. I misunderstood the complaint.

I assumed, based on your previous comment, you thought SBD's plan for USA production was disingenuous. That wouldn't be true - they spent millions and millions trying.

If you're actually criticizing the decision to shut it down after setting it up - well the article I referenced outlines why. It might still have been the wrong call, but it's understandable in-context.

They had contracts with various retailers that evaporated when their faulty Belarus machinery couldn't be brought online in-time. Maybe they ought to have taken a leap in faith and continued in hopes someone would pick them up.

BUT, at the same time, read the comments on Garagejournal at the time. You'd think mid-tier USA tools at moderate prices would be popular - yet not a lot of enthusiasm.

 

[neophyte]

The old USA made mid priced tools, eg SK, Armstrong, etc are long gone and the factories closed because they were money losers at the prices people were willing to pay for them.

SK and Armstrong were both considered strong enough that new factories were built to produce the tools.
The Armstrong factory had flooding and setbacks, and Apex, or whatever entity was technically the owner at the time finally called it quits after not bring able to ship product for a year or more.
SK was sold to the Chinese conglomerate around the same time Stanley called it quits with their new US Craftsman factory, likely due to the same potential recession economic outlook.
Both SK and Armstrong’s shutdowns happened after factory moves, and trying to set up and consolidate multiple production facilities into one new facility.
Stanley tools, decades ago, did the same thing with MAC tools, and wound up with a similar clusterf@ck, but pushed thru, and started manufacturing tools at the US facility.
Ideal when selling SK likely figured there was more profit potential in manufacturing electrical connectors, than there was in manufacturing tools, and since electrical connectors are mostly single use, they were probably not wrong.
Most USA made items at Walmart, or any similar store, are things people constantly buy over and over, like toilet paper, and paper towels, and trash bags, and laundry detergent.

 

[Toold_up]

You're right. I misunderstood the complaint.

I assumed, based on your previous comment, you thought SBD's plan for USA production was disingenuous. That wouldn't be true - they spent millions and millions trying.

If you're actually criticizing the decision to shut it down after setting it up - well the article I referenced outlines why. It might still have been the wrong call, but it's understandable in-context.

They had contracts with various retailers that evaporated when their faulty Belarus machinery couldn't be brought online in-time. Maybe they ought to have taken a leap in faith and continued in hopes someone would pick them up.

BUT, at the same time, read the comments on Garagejournal at the time. You'd think mid-tier USA tools at moderate prices would be popular - yet not a lot of enthusiasm.

I understand their misfortune with the Dallas plant. Why did they attempt such a grand experiment in a country with such high operating expenses? You would think that a company with hundreds of years (combined) of manufacturing, they would have had a better plan.

As far as mid price USA made tools, there is a market for that. You can see vintage made in USA Craftsman tools selling for more than new Snap-on on ebay! Maybe the customers are upset with SBD and refusing to buy their products (-4% USA sales)?

 

[Andres26tnt]

I understand their misfortune with the Dallas plant. Why did they attempt such a grand experiment in a country with such high operating expenses? You would think that a company with hundreds of years (combined) of manufacturing, they would have had a better plan.

As far as mid price USA made tools, there is a market for that. You can see vintage made in USA Craftsman tools selling for more than new Snap-on on ebay! Maybe the customers are upset with SBD and refusing to buy their products (-4% USA sales)?

They made a promise to bring back USA made mechanic tools. They understood that buyers didn't want high prices for those tools. What's not clear about their actions? The company want to be profitable at the end of the day.


Yes ebay prices is the example of what a large company like Stanley should be researching in order to price tools . Or make huge impactful decision for their billion dollar company. You know we have a nice tread on here about craigslist dreamers and ebay prices. I wonder what's a more evident issue facing Americans today that could have brought sales down. Inflation for the past 2y, increase in prices on everything.

 

[Toold_up]

They made a promise to bring back USA made mechanic tools. They understood that buyers didn't want high prices for those tools. What's not clear about their actions? The company want to be profitable at the end of the day.


Yes ebay prices is the example of what a large company like Stanley should be researching in order to price tools . Or make huge impactful decision for their billion dollar company. You know we have a nice tread on here about craigslist dreamers and ebay prices. I wonder what's a more evident issue facing Americans today that could have brought sales down. Inflation for the past 2y, increase in prices on everything.

Wait a minute! I thought you said that Craftsman was profitable? I remember you saying that it's flying off the shelves.

I did not say that any business should look at ebay for marketing decisions, I said there is a market for USA tools. The facts show that SBD is at -4% American sales this quarter! This is the holiday season with black Friday (Do you know what black Friday means?) and Christmas. For retail, that's embarrassing. Q4 was historically huge for Sears and Craftsman products were always big volume sales.

 

[JradM]

Wait a minute! I thought you said that Craftsman was profitable? I remember you saying that it's flying off the shelves.

I did not say that any business should look at ebay for marketing decisions, I said there is a market for USA tools. The facts show that SBD is at -4% American sales this quarter! This is the holiday season with black Friday (Do you know what black Friday means?) and Christmas. For retail, that's embarrassing. Q4 was historically huge for Sears and Craftsman products were always big volume sales.

I think I lost the thread of what we're arguing about. Can you give us the top three bullet points?

I thought it was something like:

1. SBD should never have bought Craftsman.
2. SBD messed up Craftsman.
3. SBD promised USA production and shouldn't have stopped.

Feel free to correct that. The point is that I can't figure out what you're arguing for.

Sure there's a market for mid-tier USA tools - but it depends on the pricing and quality. SBD couldn't fulfill their contracts and, once released from those contracts, the retailers apparently weren't interested in the tools except at bargain prices.

I'm not surprised by that - go look at some historical threads on the USA tools on this forum. The new USA stuff wasn't good enough. It seems like SBD hoped to make USA-produced tools comparable to the Taiwanese ones both in price and quality. They got close on quality, but their machine failures prevented the prices from being sustainable. There's no market for mid-tier tools at premium pricing. On garage journal specifically, people seemed to want V-series and Proto quality at Taiwan prices.

I like the sound of mid-tier tools at bargain prices too - but I don't expect SBD did.

 

[Andres26tnt]

Wait a minute! I thought you said that Craftsman was profitable? I remember you saying that it's flying off the shelves.

I did not say that any business should look at ebay for marketing decisions, I said there is a market for USA tools. The facts show that SBD is at -4% American sales this quarter! This is the holiday season with black Friday (Do you know what black Friday means?) and Christmas. For retail, that's embarrassing. Q4 was historically huge for Sears and Craftsman products were always big volume sales.

Brother my comments was on the factory alone, you seem to no understand why they invested and ultimately shut it down. The brand as a whole is doing just fine . The factory was loosing money, and just like any big company would do, they closed it.


You most definitely suggested with that comment , otherwise why should Stanley care about what vintage tools go for on ebay? Of course the market for USA tools exist, we all know that. But at what price are American willing to pay? That's the whole discussion. It clear since before even Stanley, Americans didn't want to pay those prices.

Holiday sales lean on how good the discount is and what products are being sold. What products where on sale this year for craftsman? The basic stuff no one wants, that was the majority of the Black Friday sales, the other where the V line that has been on sale before the holidays. If you pated attention, it has been on sale since Sept. Heck I bought my kits half off before that . You the V line did fly off the shelf's, here we are on thread about the issue.

 

[Toold_up]

I think I lost the thread of what we're arguing about. Can you give us the top three bullet points?

I thought it was something like:

1. SBD should never have bought Craftsman.
2. SBD messed up Craftsman.
3. SBD promised USA production and shouldn't have stopped.

Feel free to correct that. The point is that I can't figure out what you're arguing for.

Sure there's a market for mid-tier USA tools - but it depends on the pricing and quality. SBD couldn't fulfill their contracts and, once released from those contracts, the retailers apparently weren't interested in the tools except at bargain prices.

I'm not surprised by that - go look at some historical threads on the USA tools on this forum. The new USA stuff wasn't good enough. It seems like SBD hoped to make USA-produced tools comparable to the Taiwanese ones both in price and quality. They got close on quality, but their machine failures prevented the prices from being sustainable. There's no market for mid-tier tools at premium pricing. On garage journal specifically, people seemed to want V-series and Proto quality at Taiwan prices.

I like the sound of mid-tier tools at bargain prices too - but I don't expect SBD did.

Sure, we are all over the place here. Basically it boils down to my belief that SBD never really meant what they pledged when they bought the Craftsman brand from kmart.

 

[Toold_up]

The company want to be profitable at the end of the day.

Brother my comments was on the factory alone, you seem to no understand why they invested and ultimately shut it down. The brand as a whole is doing just fine . The factory was loosing money, and just like any big company would do, they closed it.

Your post was about the company want to be profitable, not the factory. You no understand!

You most definitely suggested with that comment , otherwise why should Stanley care about what vintage tools go for on ebay? Of course the market for USA tools exist, we all know that. But at what price are American willing to pay? That's the whole discussion. It clear since before even Stanley, Americans didn't want to pay those prices.

Nonsense!

Holiday sales lean on how good the discount is and what products are being sold.

Black Friday is the day that retailers turn from red to black. It's embarassing that they performed sub par.