Bleeding knuckle's means you have been using a Craftsman Ratchet!!
Now before everyone that praise's Craftsman get's their ******* in a bunch, I'm just messing with you!!
- Thread starter Ryan
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Now before everyone that praise's Craftsman get's their ******* in a bunch, I'm just messing with you!!
No you're not....Now before everyone that praise's Craftsman get's their ******* in a bunch, I'm just messing with you!!
malibu101
Well-known member
I understand completly! I think we are on exactly the same page.
I too have watched the S-O versus Cman arguments and never said anything. Until now.
Here's my $.02
My core set of tools is, for arguments sake, completly Craftsman. For the most part, they have served me very well for over 20 years. I have had "problems" over the years and never knew it was the tools. For example, until I fell into a set of S-O metric flare nut wrenches. I thought all flare nuts were designed to never be removed. I have Cman SAE flare wrenches. The first time I used the S-O was quite impressive. I gave them time to show their worth and they did. I talked to an aquaintance who I knew bought S-O. He introduced me to his route driver. He was a cool guy he gave me a catalog and his phone number. He said call anytime and we would connect. Now, I too, buy many S-O tools. However, I have yet to replace many Cman for S-O. I did buy S-O SAE flare wrenches to repalce the Cman though
Examples:
S-O Flank Drive PLUS open end wrenches looked like a great design to me. I took the plunge and bought a set for work due to the fact that carrying many tools is a backbreaking option. When you need to push an open end beyond it's intended duty, Flank drive PLUS cannot be beat. However, good old Cman raised panels work more than fine for me at home.
I bought mid-length 3/8 drive sockets to compliment the full set of Cmans. Maybe it's because they look so good but I tend to grab them first although the good old Cman's see their share of work and I really can't complain about them.
Most specialty tools, welders, and shop eqipment- forget S-O. Most look like rebadged Lisle, OTC, or other "lesser" brands at double the price.
In closing, my "older" Cman's are fine for me and I don't see me swapping them. BUT S-O is a value in some things.
Seriously, if I was building a core set of tools again knowing what I know now, many of them would be S-O.
Your mileage may vary.
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eschoendorff
Well-known member
I, like many here, have a core set made up of Craftsman. But since I already have a good core set of tools, I find myself buying Snap On more now for the few things that I actually need. I do not spend nearly as much on tools as I did a year or two ago... so I take that savings and buy Snap on when I find that I need something.
Do I NEED Snap on??? Hell no! But I buy it because I like it and can *sometimes* afford it.
Do I NEED Snap on??? Hell no! But I buy it because I like it and can *sometimes* afford it.
Major Ramifications
Well-known member
I have resisted thus far, but I might as well throw in my two cents:
I just wanted to throw in the fact that most Craftsman rachets eventually slip because the grease inside them dries up. A simple cleaning and oiling are usually all that is needed. Of course, you might as well throw in a rebuild kit while it is apart since they are free (or is it $.01? Adam would know).
If Snap-On truly had a superior handle shape (for all those "it feels better in my hand" guys), it would simply be copied by Craftsman and others. This is extremely simple to do. Hell, ***** feel better in my hand than any Snap-On product.
The mid-life crisis Harley posers crack me up, too. We have a couple next door to us. It's just funny.
I just wanted to throw in the fact that most Craftsman rachets eventually slip because the grease inside them dries up. A simple cleaning and oiling are usually all that is needed. Of course, you might as well throw in a rebuild kit while it is apart since they are free (or is it $.01? Adam would know).
If Snap-On truly had a superior handle shape (for all those "it feels better in my hand" guys), it would simply be copied by Craftsman and others. This is extremely simple to do. Hell, ***** feel better in my hand than any Snap-On product.
The mid-life crisis Harley posers crack me up, too. We have a couple next door to us. It's just funny.
ColdDuckTime
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My favorite part about all of that is the groovy-cool clothes that go with. I think if I were king, Harley riders would be required to wear those leather chaps and vest and nothing else...well, maybe a fez for a helmet...it would make an esthetic whole out of the Harley experience.
Major Ramifications
Well-known member
They look like they are going to a costume party when they saddle up their Harleys. They have an RV with a garage in the back and a liftgate to bring the Harleys to where they are going.
Oh well, whatever makes them happy. I just hope I don't have a midlife crisis. I can't afford one. I also really hope that they are not reading this!
kartracer55
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For a professional mechanic the difference is obvious. Those who say "snap on is a waste of money" are true, because they are obviously not professional mechanics and do not need snap on tools.
Snap On tools are designed with the professional in mind. For example, snap on extensions are made from multiple short pieces of steel welded together, whereas many are either Powder metal or machined from a solid piece. By welding them together, the extensions stay perfectly true (or so I am told). That is why a 4 piece extension set from sears is 19.99 and as low as 10$ when on sale. You can not touch a single snap on extension for less than like 15 or 20$.
Does a weekend warrior who might do a single big job per month, and doesnt stand to loose any money due to time really NEED high end sockets? NO! but when you are using the same socket all day long 5-6 days a week, then YES! you will need a higher quality socket.
Snap On tools were never intended to be used by home owners, they are geared directly towards professionals.
Its like a tire. You wouldn't put Goodyear Eagle F1's on a taxi, and you wouldn't put Michelin Harmony's on an A4. Both are great tires, but terrible from the aspect of being suited for the vehicle. Craftsman tools are great for who they were intended to be used by...
Snap On tools are designed with the professional in mind. For example, snap on extensions are made from multiple short pieces of steel welded together, whereas many are either Powder metal or machined from a solid piece. By welding them together, the extensions stay perfectly true (or so I am told). That is why a 4 piece extension set from sears is 19.99 and as low as 10$ when on sale. You can not touch a single snap on extension for less than like 15 or 20$.
Does a weekend warrior who might do a single big job per month, and doesnt stand to loose any money due to time really NEED high end sockets? NO! but when you are using the same socket all day long 5-6 days a week, then YES! you will need a higher quality socket.
Snap On tools were never intended to be used by home owners, they are geared directly towards professionals.
Its like a tire. You wouldn't put Goodyear Eagle F1's on a taxi, and you wouldn't put Michelin Harmony's on an A4. Both are great tires, but terrible from the aspect of being suited for the vehicle. Craftsman tools are great for who they were intended to be used by...
chad s
Well-known member
There is nothing like Snap On extension. I know it may sound minor, but the knurling on them is a BIG plus. Once you have them, not having that knurling will drive you nuts.
I am not a pro wrench, but with building cars as an amerature, it still means a lot to me to have the best. I am relying on my tools a lot, not just a few times a month. I use my tools everyday, often on cars who's fasteners may have not been touched for 50-60 years (i.e. rusted, frozen). Its worth every penny to me to buy snap on, for the following reasons:
1. I am often in situations where my sockets and drivers, prybars etc. are pushed hard. Im dealing with old, very heavy cars, that dont like coming apart.
2. The tools do work better, especialy in extreme situations, and why shouldn't I make my hobby, which is supposed to be relaxing and enjoyable, easier to do?
3. The tools do hold up well, and I can invest now, and have them for the rest of my life.
eschoendorff
Well-known member
Tim G
Well-known member
I've always had Harleys,have owned my shovel FL for 18 years,used to be you would go to the dealer parts department and stand in line on a Sat,BS with the other guys in line,plumbers,mechanics,blue collar types.
Now,it's like walking into an accountant's convention.....
I remember reading an article in a motorcycle magazine around the time the engineers bought HD from AMF,something to the effect of the new owners goal was you pull up to a light with your wife and kids in the car,glance over nervously at the biker on the Harley next to you,he grins,and you realise it's your dentist.
Seems like their marketing plan worked!
ColdDuckTime
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No doubt they make more money on product identified things than they do bikes (hmmm...maybe a Harley fez is what is needed).
The dilution of the group (and a push upscale) is what happened with American high performance cars. They used to be the proud possessions of mostly blue collar guys, buying Ferrari perforance in some cases with little cash outlay. Especially during the gas crunch, you could pick up an LS6 or COPO car for 1 or 2 grand.
Fast forward into the 90's...collectors, especially the guys who worry a boatload about original hose clamps/overspray/matching VIN transmissions (I mean, after all, these were cars slapped together by guys smoking dope in the parking lot during a night shift), people who own 20 of the same model, the rise in value of peripheral models (come on, a 1969 Mustang notchback is best used as a parts car), garage queens, etc. etc. The whole hobby, which never was as organized as bike guys, has been destroyed by a bunch of people with more money than sense.
/end rant
Coach James
Well-known member
Based on the SO I've used, there's no question that SO is a better quality tool than many C-man. I have a finite(small) tool budget though so I don't buy SO, except for the 4 or 5 wrenches I got on ebay. C-man raised panel stuff is not my favorite but it is good enough for me. I'm lucky though as the local welding suppy sells me Wright wrenches for the same price as C-man and Wright is A+ quality. They have a much tighter fit on fasteners than C-man raised panel stuff. My tools are a mix of many brands, but I would be fine if all I could use was C-man.
I've given many gifts of C-man tools to several of my employees and they have been very pleased with them. They're not pro mechanics, just folks that change their own oil, alternators etc.
The poser thread I can relate to. I used to ride years ago then I wrecked. I made myself ride one more time after that just to show myself that I wasn't afraid to do it. As my responsibilites grew(wife, kids) I hung it up. I know two folks in my neighborhood that I went to high school with that own Harleys. They go to several bike rallys each year. Funny part is they trailer them there, park them on the street so they can sit/lean on them all day, then trailer them home. Their bikes are 5 years old and barely have 1,000 miles on them.
I've given many gifts of C-man tools to several of my employees and they have been very pleased with them. They're not pro mechanics, just folks that change their own oil, alternators etc.
The poser thread I can relate to. I used to ride years ago then I wrecked. I made myself ride one more time after that just to show myself that I wasn't afraid to do it. As my responsibilites grew(wife, kids) I hung it up. I know two folks in my neighborhood that I went to high school with that own Harleys. They go to several bike rallys each year. Funny part is they trailer them there, park them on the street so they can sit/lean on them all day, then trailer them home. Their bikes are 5 years old and barely have 1,000 miles on them.
southernfriedcj
Well-known member
How are you guys breaking so many Craftsman tools? I've only broken 2 tools in 30 years. A couple months ago I had a slipping 1/2 ratchet. I took it to Sears and the counter guy got me a new ratchet off the shelf. The other time I cracked a 3/4" socket when I was using a 6' cheater bar to bust a head bolt loose.
I love the craftsman tools and the price. A big consideration for me is loss and theft. I have had my entire toolset stolen (1979) and I am always losing tools. I throw a buch of tools in the truck and they never make it back to the garage.
As far as the run up on muscle car prices go, all of the guys I know that have muscle/pony cars (I have 5) had them in high school and are happy to have them now regardless of price. I would rather pay 70k for a '69 Z/28 than the same amount for a new BMW. That being said, I paid $16,000 for my Z/28 clone.
Now on to the Harley "white collar" guys. If they are having fun, who cares what they do?
That being said, if I wanted a cruiser bike I would buy a Honda.
I love the craftsman tools and the price. A big consideration for me is loss and theft. I have had my entire toolset stolen (1979) and I am always losing tools. I throw a buch of tools in the truck and they never make it back to the garage.
As far as the run up on muscle car prices go, all of the guys I know that have muscle/pony cars (I have 5) had them in high school and are happy to have them now regardless of price. I would rather pay 70k for a '69 Z/28 than the same amount for a new BMW. That being said, I paid $16,000 for my Z/28 clone.
Now on to the Harley "white collar" guys. If they are having fun, who cares what they do?
That being said, if I wanted a cruiser bike I would buy a Honda.BadBloodRacing
Well-known member
I buy mostly Craftsman hand tools for working on my vehicle and B-D for my home repair, cordless, and lawn care tools. But I have bought a few things from H.F. that if I was to buy brand name, the price would kill me (i.e., sheet metal brake, P.S. pulley puller, shop cart and so forth).
I look at it this way, buy what you need right now inside your budget, but safe up and get a better one when funds allow, and haven't been burned that bad from any of them.
There are thing's like a tool cart I would buy from HF, I will buy I should say. My wife and I will be closing on our house very soon, that will have a impact on my tool budget. But I will get my 2 1/2 car garage at last!!
ColdDuckTime
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-thread hijack
A problem (to me at least) is that neither one is worth anything near 70k. The BMW is just way way too complex (and like most cars, too heavy) and those Z/28s, frankly, aren't very good cars. Compared to something like a COPO Camaro or LS6 Chevelle, they're darned slow, and they handle pretty badly to boot (and I just *hate* those gauge packages, what idiot designed those?). They do look cool though, which I guess is why I've bought and sold several of them. Given a choice, a Boss 302 is a far superior car.
As a complete aside on a post that has nothing to do with Craftsman tools at all, I've always loved how all these Z/28s have ended up with ZL2 hoods. Probably only 1:5 or 1:6 cars were actually delivered with them. Next thing you know (once they hit $250k or whatever), every 69 Z/28 will have the factory AM/FM radio, be an RS, have power steering, gauge package, JL8 brakes, and the liquid tire chain option.
My favorite guy ever was that dude in (I think) Car Craft or one of the Muscle Car Illustrated style mags that owned 15 or so Yenko Camaros. It was like a house of mirrors with the only differences between the cars being color or transmission. An utterly grotesque example of overconsumption.
-unthread hijack
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southernfriedcj
Well-known member
amwalker
Well-known member
I use Craftsman at work, issued to me by the Air Force, and I use Craftsman at home. I was able to choose the box at work and I picked the Craftsman box because it is what I'm used to and what I like. I started wrenching at 15 (21 now)when I bought my first set and have enjoyed using them ever since. I have access to a Snap-on box at work and don't mind using it at all, but I don't like the thin profile of their wrenches (I work on fire truck and forklifts and have to put a lot of force on some pieces) and the rachets and sockets feel bulkier to me.
Now on the topic of breaking things, the only tools I ever really break are adapters, mainly the 1/2 -> 3/8 adapter. I do that my using my 1/2 breaker bar to loosen certain stubborn bolts in a few of the things I work on.
I think the fact that I can walk into Sears and get whatever I need influences my preferences, but I'm sure the price difference does that as well.
Now on the topic of breaking things, the only tools I ever really break are adapters, mainly the 1/2 -> 3/8 adapter. I do that my using my 1/2 breaker bar to loosen certain stubborn bolts in a few of the things I work on.
I think the fact that I can walk into Sears and get whatever I need influences my preferences, but I'm sure the price difference does that as well.
stepsideclyde
Member
About a year a go, I was called on, by the company that I work for, to do field work out of a service truck, along with my other responsibilities. This meant that I would have to take tools from my shop box and put them in a service truck every time I went out, and return them when I got back. That got old rather quickly, so on a whim I bought one of those cman kits in a plastic case, a chucked it in the truck. Got basic wrenches and socket sets in standard and metric, while they are not like my snap ons in the shop, they have worked rather well. Broken one socket that was replaced without question, and if I loose one in the dirt or in a belly pan, replacement is pretty cheap. Plus the case has a spot for everything, so when you pack up to leave you can immediatly tell if something is missing.
tc
tc
ColdDuckTime
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What? No repop crossram setup?
LOL. No doubt. I don't mean to be so harsh about all of this, it's just that the day that hemicuda hardtops passed Ferrari Daytonas in value, I think my brain exploded. In the case of Chevrolet products, the differences between models are so trivial that the pricing is just stupid.
I do like the notion of clones though (especially when they sneak into the wild)...I think if I get my act together, what I would build are nonexistent clones...maybe a T/A or AAR convertible, Boss 302 convertible, etc.
As far as Craftsman tools go (*whew*) I'm not sure that I've ever broken anything but a ratchet. I'm not really sure how I could break anything that was used as intended (ie. no screwdrivers for pry bars, no ratchets in place of those breaker bar + square drive thingies, no beating on wrenches with regular hammers, go up on drive size if you really have to pull hard on something, etc.).
Personally, I'm willing to accept it if all these brands do the same job. It's mostly just an esthetic thing to me that a pair of Knipex pliers is way nicer than a cheap Craftsman set or whatever. Rounding bolt heads is a bummer, but that hardly ever happens in my world. I think if I fixed rusty old customer cars, I would hit it more.
I still want to buy a 1/2 combination wrench from every manufacturer and measure them and then beat them to failure. It would be a great hobby project.
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ColdDuckTime
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I'm really into that anymore. It's funny how few wrench sets are sold in closeable boxes instead of those cheapie little extruded plastic trays. I'd be living large if I could find good quality pliers/screwdrivers/wrenches in molded boxes.
Uncle Buck
Banned
I guess I'll go ahead and add my take in this. As a retired mechanic of 35 years ( got my first job at 14 twisting wrenches) I can say that I've used about every brand out there. I started with a mix of Craftsman, Mustang, Wizard with a few Proto tossed in the mixed. During the first few years all I bought were Craftsman because they were good quality and very affordable. Then I went to work at a big shop that had a Snap-On truck come by and I was like a kid in a candy store but my *** stung because of the prices. In 1970 I bought my first full set of Snap-On screwdrivers for the **** rippin price of $25.00....outrageous compared to Craftsman at the time, but the thing is....I still got them all and they haven't let me down yet. I've got my share of Mac, Matco, Proto, Cornwell, Snap-On and Craftsman and they all have served me well over the years so I guess its a matter of what you can afford....what you like....and how much you use them. Some specialty stuff is only available off the tool trucks and I'm not counting that stuff...only your basic tools. Yes they all have a different feel to each brand but you have to decide which brand best suits your needs. I guess there is no real right answer to this question as long as you have a quality tool that doesn't put you in the poor house and gets the job done with no damage to you or what your working on......
This answer gets my vote, me too!
eschoendorff
Well-known member
mulepackin
Well-known member
Man when I first saw this thread I thought my God here we go again. Now I find I have to reply. Like many on here my collection of tools has been a many years accumulation of a variety of brands, types and qualities. However, my first stuff, and basic stuff remains Craftsman. It began about thirty years ago with a Cman "starter" set that my dad gave me for Christmas (still one of my best gifts ever). I have added to it and fleshed it out over the years. Lately, I had been looking for a basic "cheap" set of hand tools (sockets, drives, and combination wrenches) to throw in my grab and go box, rather than robbing from my shop boxes every time I hit the road, then having to return them when I get back. I had considered Champion, Husky, Stanley, Kobalt among others. I found 155 piece Craftsman sets on Ebay for little more than these imports. More tools, still (?) lifetime warranty, USA made and readily replaceable locally. Well they came today, and I finally see what this is all about. As has already been said today's Craftsman is not your father's (or in my case my youth's) Craftsman. Ratcheting mechanisms were the first things that caught my attn. Flimsy, floppy weak seeming reversing switches, no heavy locking plate over the mechanism, lighter forgings, thinner necks. The only plus was a bit longer 3/8 drive than my old one. The combination wrench heads are clearly thinner, handles appear lighter. Only the sockets seem about comparable, at least to the naked eye (they are not the laser etched ones). If I get time I will photograph some comparisons and maybe mic a few. This stuff should work fine for my intended purpose, and probably better than some of the other brands I was considering, but sheesh what an overall dissapointment in the state of Craftsman tool manufacturing. I am quite certain if I were to compare the truck brands current issues with their vintage stuff, I wouldn't find this same degree of disparity. I think I need a drink, or a 12 step program or something.
Detroit Diesel Man
Well-known member
I wasnt going to respond and get sucked into the SO vs Craftsman debate but thought I'd through in my 2 cents..I have at work mostly SO stuff..but do have and use Craftsman as well...all of my wrenches are SO as well as 90% of My sockets and all of My ratchets...Air tools are mostly IR's..as far as who's better...tough call...I personally think SO makes a better tool..hands down..but I know people who swear by Craftsman,Mac,SK whatever..it boils down to personal opinion I think..I've had My SO wrenches (Flank Drive Plus) in both metric and std as well as full sets of metric/std shorty wrenches for years...I bought them when the flankdrive plus had just come out..I use those wrenches daily..specialty wrenches I buy when I need them....I have a very very old set of craftsman wrenches open end up to 1" even has one that is marked 19/32 on it..I got these from My Grandfather so I have no idea how old they are..but I have them in My box at work and still use them from time to time..I cant say I am 100% SO because I do use Craftsman and other brands...its always interesting to hear/read/listen to the debates tho. I do know where I work (HD Truck Dealer) us Mechanics in the shop dont give anybody a hard time about what tools they have..if they work..thats all we really care about.
DDM
DDM
I have never had a problem with Craftsman. They are the perfect compromise. They ar enot as expensive as Snap-On Or MAC and are better quality than HF, or Lowes (HD Husky is pretty good as most are made by Stanley Works). The home mechanic does not need the service and modestly higher quality of Snap-On, but does need the quality and replacemembnt guarantee of Craftsman. I have decades-old Craftsman tools which are still going strong.
stimpy
Well-known member
when I was an apprentice wrench ( 20+years ago) I was introduced to the snap on man and the matco man , as I had all craftsmans at the time ( I bought them except for the set my dad got me for my 15th B-day ) and I looked at all the toys , and one of the mechanics (mr wrench) said you aint a wrench unless you use Snap ons , and later in the day the senior mechanic said it isn't the brand of wrench you use, it's the person with the knowledge that makes the wrench , as later I found out as mr wrench was dumb as a rock but hey he had snap ons !!!! the senior used craftsmans and would buy a few odds and ends from the rolling chrome crack dealers , as I found out that snapons flare wrenchs are the best out there , and cornwall made a great screwdriver if you could ever get the truck to come around , the other thing I like was snap ons kits when I went to the shipyards I had to work on detroits and they sold a kit with everything I needed to tune one ,talk about a time saver and they worked great too !! I love there hydraulic wrenchs , but I look at what I can afford and for know its craftsmans .
If you feel insecure in your skills, I guess Snapon is cheaper than therapy. Good tools are addictive too. I don't have a "good" reason yet, but I am hunting for Stahlwille after finding just one socket.
Whatever happened to the concept of workman like, not maybe the "best", but professional quality? I sure can't picture my dad buying anything remotely "fancy" in a tool.
Whatever happened to the concept of workman like, not maybe the "best", but professional quality? I sure can't picture my dad buying anything remotely "fancy" in a tool.
If I could buy a complete set of Stahwille sockets, I would. Rapacious prices, sadly. £7 for one socket ?
I know what you mean about stuff that's just good, without being fancy. Stanley have just killed Britool's individual sockets and metal boxed sets
They might not have had the sheen of the very classiest tools, but I have Britool ratchets that are at least 40 years old.
eschoendorff
Well-known member
Just out of curiosity, why do you want Stahlwille sockets? they don't seem to be anything special that we can't make better here in the states....
http://www.stahlwille-online.de/ind...hid=&scmd=pdetail&pcid=2616&cid=3044&pid=3043
I had a friend who was co-owner of a Porsche parts business many years ago. He swore by Stahlwille tools, and carried some in stock.
To be honest, the sockets seemed quite nice. The wrenches however, seemed pretty crude and reminded me of the tools included in Japanese motorcycle tool kits of the time.
To be honest, the sockets seemed quite nice. The wrenches however, seemed pretty crude and reminded me of the tools included in Japanese motorcycle tool kits of the time.
Uncle Buck
Banned
I do not get the Stahlwille thing, but I don't get much from foreign cars either, even Porche's so I do not suppose I will ever get the Stahlwille thing. I would choose Craftsman pro over the Stahlwille though! (That should send em running for popcorn & beer!)
eschoendorff
Well-known member
Man, anymore popcorn and beer in this thread and I'm gonna have to poop!
I paid a buck each for 5 misc sockets I found in a toolbox a week or so ago, and one of them was a Stahlwille 8mm triple square short bit in a 1/2" drive socket. Compared to the ones I looked at from Snapon today the Stahlwille looked like a better grade of steel, and a bit more industrial and not as showy as the Snapon.
All I am really looking for in Stahlwille is a matching 12mm triple square, at most a long and short in both 8mm and 12mm.
I hope this batch of shiny new SK sockets I bought today, and digging through the bins of Snapon which are VERY nice looking doesn't turn me into some kind of socket *****. Two days ago I was happy using my Kmart sockets. ;(
MAD
Well-known member
While you are at it take a look at those Kmart sockets. How good does that steel look? I have a set of Kmart Benchtop brand sockets I keep in my truck that I have used the hell out of. They have held up great but the ratchet that came with them lasted about five minutes. Funny thing is, they looked to be of the same quality.
My Stahwille Whitworth socket set has probably not touched a bolt in many years, but knowing that they are there gives me the courage to face the day knowing I am just a little better than most of you garage monkey riffraff.