Craigs List Item Warning

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

In most cases, you will NOT have a "Too good to be true" price to warn you that something is amiss.

I will say this...the "too good to be true" price should alert the casual person that there's probably something fishy going on and to check if the deal is legitimate or not. They will most likely have to do some research and find out how these boxes are generally purchased...i.e. financed.

But any of us on this forum that talk about this stuff regularly should know enough to call the manufacturer of ANY toolbox that's relatively new and check to see if there's a lien on it...no matter what the asking price.

That is, unless we give a damn or not about possibly buying stolen property. Good to see that some of us still do!

 

[Skyline]

kythri;

Just so you know, all of the major tool truck companies DO actively re-posses tool boxes. Exactly what the process is, and how hard they try to track down an unpaid box is beyond my knowledge. I'm sure there are plenty that just vanish. But repossession does happen.

And Matco credit DID want to know the location of this box and the Craig's list item number when I enquired about it.

Since I buy tools to re-sell, the last thing I want is a purchaser coming back to me and telling me that he had problems with warrantee service on a box....much less a repossession. If you have a broken drawer slide or something, and want a free replacement under warantee, you will be asked for a serial number. Have you priced a set of Snap-on drawer slides???

 

[wantedabiggergarage]

kythri;

Just so you know, all of the major tool truck companies DO actively re-posses tool boxes. Exactly what the process is, and how hard they try to track down an unpaid box is beyond my knowledge. I'm sure there are plenty that just vanish. But repossession does happen.

And Matco credit DID want to know the location of this box and the Craig's list item number when I enquired about it.

Since I buy tools to re-sell, the last thing I want is a purchaser coming back to me and telling me that he had problems with warrantee service on a box....much less a repossession. If you have a broken drawer slide or something, and want a free replacement under warantee, you will be asked for a serial number. Have you priced a set of Snap-on drawer slides???

And I am sure with today's caller ID, they knew exactly who you were.

 

[SteveV]

I understand that with a credit card, the seller has been paid in full, but regardless of the legal way the debt was structured, I really don't see the moral difference between someone selling a tool box with Matco's unpaid debt (which is probably structured through a 3rd party finance company), or someone selling a tool box bought with Visa's unpaid debt.

If you buy a new car at a dealership and finance it with your bank, the dealership has been paid in full. If you stopped making payments on it, and sold it for full price to someone else without paying off the loan, it would of course be considered stolen and immoral. It's really no different ethically compared someone who buys something with a credit card, sells it, and never pays off the credit card. The only difference is with the car, the law will be after you because the merchandise is more easily traced and recorded with the state.

I agree, it's really no different, and I would stay clear of a deal that was obviously an unpaid toolbox just because it's not worth the issues that could come up.

I do tend to look at issues like this though as more between the original buyer and seller than with outside parties. The burden of this debt is really with the original creditor and debtor, not an outside buyer. If Matco "sold" this to a guy, and there is still some debt left on it, it's really up to Matco to get the debt outstanding. If for some reason I accidentally bought a tool box that still had some debt on it, I certainly wouldn't turn it in unless I was reimbursed in full for my purchase. It's really an issue between the original buyer and seller.

Companies should be smarter about dropping off a $12,000 tool chest to someone with no real collateral or recourse. I think this recession/depression have made companies wake up and understand that people WILL walk away from their debts. I always thought it was incredibly stupid that these tool truck companies would give out $20,000 credit to people who could easily take off with that merchandise. That's the main reason tools are so expensive with the "tool truck" model. Everyone (including cash buyers) are forced to subsidize these people that don't repay their debts. That's why I tend to avoid these brands. The markup isn't necessarily because it cost more to make the tool, most of it is the financing for non-cash buyers.

 

[Danglerb]

I guess that is why most funeral directors want to be paid in full before they put you and the casket into the ground...

Hah, when the body goes in the box, you bought it. Funeral homes have legislation in most states that prohibit reuse of a casket. OTOH they do make a special "carrier" casket that is actually shell that goes over a cheap box.

Sorry for the interruption, we now return to the land of living.

 

[kythri]

Everyone (including cash buyers) are forced to subsidize these people that don't repay their debts. That's why I tend to avoid these brands. The markup isn't necessarily because it cost more to make the tool, most of it is the financing for non-cash buyers.

That's why they make such a big deal about how they "don't charge interest".

It's wrapped into the price of the tool.

 

[daveblank]

Companies should be smarter about dropping off a $12,000 tool chest to someone with no real collateral or recourse.

The tool box is the collateral.

 

[wantedabiggergarage]

Daveblank, can you get into what due diligence you are required to do? I had talked to a Snap-on and Mac dealer a little about it, but don't feel I have the story in depth enough to post what I have heard.

Are the customers required to give you their address, and all working location, even if they move?
Are you required to look for them if they skip?
Is there some comeback on you from corporate finance for lack of due diligence?
ETC.

 

[krusty the clown]

this has been an interesting read.......although we have hashed and rehashed this over and over.


two points to remember
1) the contract IS secured debt. the box IS collateral. whether or not there is a title means nothing.
2) the tool box remains the property of the finance company (snap on credit, matco financial, cornwell tech credit,etc) until the note is paid in full, regardless if there are tools and a box on the contract.

the issue has nothing to do with theft. no one stole anything, that is just a poor choice of words. HOWEVER it is unlawful to sell the box untill it is payed for. if you purchased a box that still has a lein AFAIK you haven't broken any law BUT legally you are not the rightfull owner of the box, the finance company is AND they can take possetion of it regardless whether you payed for it or not.

the OP posted this as a service to all of us to save the purchaser a hassle and potential loss...............debating whether it's right or wrong is not going to change the facts.

 

[Danglerb]

Just because something is frequently done or even an industry practice does NOT mean its legal. Debt and collection laws vary from state to state, but most cases will require some due process, filing in a court, a chance for a hearing etc. before something can legally be taken. Many companies ignore the law and use various forms of intimidation and exploitation of the consumers ignorance to get the items back.

The strongest consumer protections in most states apply to tools used for work.

 

[krusty the clown]

That's why they make such a big deal about how they "don't charge interest".

It's wrapped into the price of the tool.

you are talking about "truck credit" and that IS unsecured. the subject here is about "extended" credit that is secured and charged interest.

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

When it comes to truck-brand tools and boxes, "market value" is a concept that's worth everything I flush down the toilet on a regular basis.

If I see a "deal" on a box, my first thought is "here's someone who's not an idiot, and not trying to **** me on the price of a toolbox".

I don't know where you draw the line between a "deal" and "hey...something is fishy here" For me, if someone is selling a toolbox for $800-1000 or less, that I haven't seen anyone else try and sell for under $2000, something is going to go off in my brain that, hey, something doesn't sound right here.

Prior to this thread, I didn't know jack about the serial numbers, and being able to call up the manufacturer. I figured the stuff was bought on a standard unsecured credit line. So far, all I "know" from this thread is that's how Matco does it. I haven't seen any claims that this is what Snap-On or Mac do.

So now you know.

Further, there's no "reasonable case" to be made - if someone is selling an item on a public forum, the "reasonable case" is that "reasonable" people don't sell "stolen" merchandise, and I have no obligation to start tracking down world+dog to find out.

Sorry, this doesn't fly. Lord knows, Craigslist is just filled with reputable sellers...we all know how strict their rules and regs are for posting on there. SARCASM OFF

So the reasonable case is that if you find a relatively new toolbox that is priced 25-50% of what everyone else is selling it for, you don't bear any responsiblity into looking into the legitimacy of the deal?! To take it to an exterme, that could wind up being up to a jury to decide.

Were I to have made the mistake of buying something like this, and someone tried to come repo it from me, I'd tell them to take a hike, and collect their pound of flesh from the dirtball who actually stole it from them.

You can talk all you want, but if Matco, for example, knows you have a box that has money owed on it and you don't want to pay, they'll come back with the cops to get it. What then, tough guy?

*I* didn't make any deal with a tool truck finance company. *I* am not under any legal obligation to pay off someone's debt. Show me the contract that *I* signed.

It doesn't matter. My god, how hard is this to understand?!? If you buy something with money owed on it, it's NOT YOURS! No matter what the circumstances surrounding your acquisition of it.


FYI, I've never worked for any of these companies or bought a tool off a truck. The closest I've been to a Snap on truck is seeing one parked across a parking lot. But I know the difference between right and wrong. I think you do too, but you keep trying to justify what you know isn't right b/c you have some grudge against these companies.

 

[daveblank]

Are the customers required to give you their address, and all working location, even if they move?

The customer is requited to notify of any address changes. Matco routinely sends them statements to be signed. This does 2 things. 1. Verifies address. 2. Verifies distributor is sending the monies collected to Matco. As far as work location, if they are still in my route, I'll change their work address in the computer & notify Matco. If they are outside of my route, Matco will transfer them to another distributor or in house. If they are in house they can call weekly & make their payments.

Are you required to look for them if they skip?

No, If we have any information they want our help.

Is there some comeback on you from corporate finance for lack of due diligence?
ETC.

If a person skips, there could be recourse on me depending on the type of contract. We have an option to basically co-sign for a customer if we feel the need. Before we do this there are qualifications that I & the customer must 1st meet.

 

[davestlouis]

On the side subject of caskets, we offer what we used to call rental caskets, we now like to refer to as ceremonial caskets. Oak or cherry wood, with a trapdoor at the foot end. The cardboard and wood container, with upholstered materials and the guest of honor, slide out prior to cremation, and the outer shell is reused 4-5 times. After that, it starts accumulating dings and scratches and is disposed of or sent back to the manufacturer for refinishing.

 

[davestlouis]

And make no mistake, funeral homes like to collect up front, even if we have to send you across the highway to America General Finance to get a loan, we will collect the funds prior to interment.

 

[SteveV]

The tool box is the collateral.

I understand the concept, but as you can see, it's a really dumb idea to actually have the collateral left with the person when it's something like a toolbox that's not secure, can easily change hands, and very difficult to track down. When something like a car is bought on "credit", it's difficult to flip a car without the law getting involved, the collateral is much more secure. In contrast, a person could easily sell a toolbox with a lien on it, and it would never be found again. A toolbox can easily hide in a shop or garage, especially since most of them all look alike.

Also, to have the collateral be an object that so rapidly depreciates also seems like a bad idea. As soon as someone "buys" a new $12,000 toolbox, used it's now worth $3k-$4k (if you're lucky in this economy)

I'm not defending the people that don't pay back their debts, I think they're scumbags. I just think the tool trucks have a foolish system for extending credit, and that system is a big reason why the markup is so high.

 

[davestlouis]

Let's look at mobile homes...easy to move, easy to disguise, they largely look the same, and they depreciate like crazy when new. Same notion as a tool box.

 

[krusty the clown]

the only real difference between a car and a tool box as far as this discussion is a tool box is not registered and liscenced with the state. other than that cars are stolen and sold while financed everyday. in fact i know where there is a car that has never had a payment made on it and has changed hands several times.

 

[davestlouis]

You could run a car on dealer tags, with no title, indefinitely, and I know several people who do/have. If you can overcome the license plate issue, you're home free, if that's your desire.

 

[wantedabiggergarage]

Just because something is frequently done or even an industry practice does NOT mean its legal. Debt and collection laws vary from state to state, but most cases will require some due process, filing in a court, a chance for a hearing etc. before something can legally be taken. Many companies ignore the law and use various forms of intimidation and exploitation of the consumers ignorance to get the items back.

The strongest consumer protections in most states apply to tools used for work.

A toolbox, isn't a tool, it is storage, and has a serial number that is listed on a contract, showing proof of ownership.

You can talk all you want, but if Matco, for example, knows you have a box that has money owed on it and you don't want to pay, they'll come back with the cops to get it.

The contract and something like a CL ad, is enough for the police to show up, and the box would be sent with the contract holder, with the person in possession of the box, having the right to file the legal recourse, from the things I have knowledge of.

The customer is requited to notify of any address changes. Matco routinely sends them statements to be signed. This does 2 things. 1. Verifies address. 2. Verifies distributor is sending the monies collected to Matco. As far as work location, if they are still in my route, I'll change their work address in the computer & notify Matco. If they are outside of my route, Matco will transfer them to another distributor or in house. If they are in house they can call weekly & make their payments.



No, If we have any information they want our help.



If a person skips, there could be recourse on me depending on the type of contract. We have an option to basically co-sign for a customer if we feel the need. Before we do this there are qualifications that I & the customer must 1st meet.

Thank you Dave. You answered my questions. I believe a person who rents is one that more likely requires the last form of financing from what I have seen, verses the typical homeowner (not as likely to skip). This is part of the reason I have seen some of the tool truck drivers go belly up. Most mechanics starting out, don't own a lot, and really can't afford to. One that is semi relations, bought his toolbox, when he decided to work one more year and sell his shop. He then moved the toolbox to the farm.

 

[SteveV]

Let's look at mobile homes...easy to move, easy to disguise, they largely look the same, and they depreciate like crazy when new. Same notion as a tool box.

Obviously, in practical terms, is much easier to "get away" with flipping a tool box than it is flipping a mobile home.

There's all sorts of registrations and titles with the state regarding a mobile home when it changes hands, in addition to the obvious fact that mobile homes are very large and hard to hide. The money involved is also much greater and it also doesn't depreciate 75% as soon as it's purchased. A mobile home as a form of collateral makes a lot more sense than a tool box as collateral.

I really doubt mobile home manufacturers or financiers have as many problems with finding their property on unpaid debt compared to a tool box dealer.

 

[kythri]

I don't know where you draw the line between a "deal" and "hey...something is fishy here" For me, if someone is selling a toolbox for $800-1000 or less, that I haven't seen anyone else try and sell for under $2000, something is going to go off in my brain that, hey, something doesn't sound right here.

At that kind of extreme, sure, all things being equal, that might raise a flag.

When we're talking boxes that retail at $10K, and a bunch of people are trying to sell for $8K, and one guy is selling for $6K, that doesn't raise any flag except the "sane seller" flag.

So now you know.

About Matco.

Sorry, this doesn't fly. Lord knows, Craigslist is just filled with reputable sellers...we all know how strict their rules and regs are for posting on there. SARCASM OFF

Not my problem. I have a reasonable assumption that most people are honest, and most people are not defrauding their creditors. I have a reasonable assumption that Craigslist ads contain, for the most part, legitimate merchandise. I have never knowingly bought stolen merchandise, and I have used the service to sell legitimately purchased merchandise. This is what I base my reasonable assumptions on.

So the reasonable case is that if you find a relatively new toolbox that is priced 25-50% of what everyone else is selling it for, you don't bear any responsiblity into looking into the legitimacy of the deal?! To take it to an exterme, that could wind up being up to a jury to decide.

Again, an extreme.

You can talk all you want, but if Matco, for example, knows you have a box that has money owed on it and you don't want to pay, they'll come back with the cops to get it. What then, tough guy?

In the unlikely event that I unknowingly purchase stolen merchandise, discover it down the road, and the shafted creditor decides to transfer said shaft to me, sorry, I really don't have any sympathy for that creditor. My attitude on the matter is that they should go after he (or she) who shafted them.

Prove I've got it, get a judgement, get a warrant.

FYI, I've never worked for any of these companies or bought a tool off a truck. The closest I've been to a Snap on truck is seeing one parked across a parking lot. But I know the difference between right and wrong. I think you do too, but you keep trying to justify what you know isn't right b/c you have some grudge against these companies.

I know the difference between right and wrong as well. I'm not advocating knowingly buying stolen property, or debt-secured property that has a lien on it. My problem is more along the lines that, again, you seem to be attempting to assign more of the "blame" in this situation to anyone but the original deadbeat dirtbag who failed to pay his bill, and that the creditor should be going after the person they gave the credit to, not the unwitting sap who thought he was buying himself a nice box.

And there's no grudge, so stop trying to stir **** up with your pathetic strawmen.

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

I understand the concept, but as you can see, it's a really dumb idea to actually have the collateral left with the person when it's something like a toolbox that's not secure, can easily change hands, and very difficult to track down.

I wouldn't agree with that...when you're making the loan to someone who needs it to make a living and you know where the property is going to be...or supposed to be (workplace). Any loan is technically a 'risk'

When something like a car is bought on "credit", it's difficult to flip a car without the law getting involved, the collateral is much more secure. In contrast, a person could easily sell a toolbox with a lien on it, and it would never be found again. A toolbox can easily hide in a shop or garage, especially since most of them all look alike.

Think about it though...if you sold a box with a lien on it, wouldn't you try and get enough info from the buyer...esp. if he was clueless like Kyrthi thinks he should be...so when the owner of the box comes looking for it, you can point them in the buyer's direction?

Dave, you have any stories from your own experience repossessing boxes?

Also, to have the collateral be an object that so rapidly depreciates also seems like a bad idea. As soon as someone "buys" a new $12,000 toolbox, used it's now worth $3k-$4k (if you're lucky in this economy)

That's the nature of the product. Wouldn't it be easier to have a secured loan for a toolbox as opposed to a diamond ring? Sure it would...different products have different risks. With the ring, you probably don't allow it into the buyer's possession until they've paid for it. That logic doesn't work with the toolbox...the buyer needs it to make the money to pay it off.

I'm not defending the people that don't pay back their debts, I think they're scumbags. I just think the tool trucks have a foolish system for extending credit, and that system is a big reason why the markup is so high.

I wouldn't immediately label people who don't pay back their debts as scumbags...esp. in these times. There could be a lot of legitimate reasons for that. What happens when they can't pay their debts...what they do next...that's the test of character.

I would label as scumbags those who sell stuff that doesn't belong to them. And those that should know better, and buy things they should realize is likely not the seller's property.

 

[kythri]

Perhaps our illustrious government needs to step in and regulate the toolbox industry, providing a titling service, helping to prevent fiascos like this thread.

Makes me hesitant to ever buy a box from anyone but the dealer - I don't want to buy a box, and then have the seller say it was stolen, providing "proof" with all of his dealer-issued paperwork.

 

[daveblank]

Dave, you have any stories from your own experience repossessing boxes?

I ususlly only get involved once the deal is done. Matco calls us & asks if we are interisted in items x, y, & z. If so, they tell me where the box is & who to contact (the customer in every case so far). I go & pick it up & it's now mine. Although I've never had a problem, I always bring someone with me.

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

At that kind of extreme, sure, all things being equal, that might raise a flag.

When we're talking boxes that retail at $10K, and a bunch of people are trying to sell for $8K, and one guy is selling for $6K, that doesn't raise any flag except the "sane seller" flag.

First off, my example was if a seller was asking noticeably less than the others...like 50% or less what the going price is. Secondly, there's no way a tight *** like yourself would pay 60% of retail anything Snap on, Mac, Matco or whoever has for sale.

I know the difference between right and wrong as well. I'm not advocating knowingly buying stolen property, or debt-secured property that has a lien on it. My problem is more along the lines that, again, you seem to be attempting to assign more of the "blame" in this situation to anyone but the original deadbeat dirtbag who failed to pay his bill, and that the creditor should be going after the person they gave the credit to, not the unwitting sap who thought he was buying himself a nice box.

What we've been talking about is, if you see a toolbox in a deal that seems too good to be true, do you simply buy the box and play dumb, or do you do some checking and see if there's a lien on the box? Now that you know what you SHOULD do and can no longer claim ignorance on toolbox liens and the like, you CONTINUE to argue that you should be able to buy whatever you please, and if there's a lien, so be it, the lien holder can just f/k off. You bought it off someone who didn't raise any flags with you, it was a good deal, and they can go screw themselves if they think they're going to take YOUR toolbox. You're no better than the dirtbag who sells a box that he knows isn't his, if you buy the box from him knowing what you now know.

You seem to think that ignorance is bliss and removes you from all responsiblity. As others have posted on here, that's not the case.

And there's no grudge, so stop trying to stir **** up with your pathetic strawmen.

I'm stirring up ****?! All anyone has to do is read your posts. Have you? Just in this thread alone, the animosity you have towards these companies is obvious. Let's see...start with your signature line, "Snap-On: There is a Difference™ - in the price." You're always railing about these tool dealers selling stuff for much more than it's worth. If that's the way you feel, then you have a choice, DON'T BUY IT! I'm sure I'm not the only one that's gotten sick of reading you ***** and moan about tool prices.

 

[Chris Adams]

We have beat this to death several times, but there are often good points made each time. Food for thought.

But to address a couple items repeated in this thread;

Too low a price to be true? NOPE, not valid. Even when things were jumping in the economy prices vary A LOT.
I picked up a "4800" dollar tool box last year, before things got wacky, for 600 bucks. Number is clear, never was a lien on that box. The guy needed money, and may have had the worst add I ever saw on CL. Then my wife beat him down to half what he was asking, because she wanted to give it to me for a present and didn't want to spend more. Deal was 100% legitimate.
I buy boxes usually Craftsman, regularly from vendors for 15% of retail. How low would it be to be unreasonable or too low? Free?

As Krusty pointed out, buying a box with a lien, is not against the law. Buying one with a lien and you know it has one and you KNOW the guy won't pay it is a gray area.
Now having a box with a lien against it leaves you open to civil action.
So if the Matco/Snap-On whoever guy, pulls into your shop and hauls the box away you have only trespass and theft of non-lien tools that happen to be in your box to hold against him.
Here in California you could get him arrested, but then he could sue your tail off. So your best bet would be ask nicely for your tools back, but let him keep the box.
Of course he wouldn't do it that way. The dealer would just serve you, demanding the box back. Court would probably uphold it. The court would never allow a case of theft against you, but you would still lose the box.
If the ‘repo’ man broke into your private garage to steal it, he would be libel for years in prison. Again, he wouldn’t, he would just have a Marshal serve you. It costs very little and you ain’t gonna argue with a Marshal. Well, not twice.

If the item is advertised on CL or any other public venue, you have no obligation to assume it is stolen.
It's called the 'reasonable man' precedent. If a reasonable man would not suspect it's stolen, you have no reason to. Example, the guy wants to meet you under a bridge at midnight, you have reason to be suspicious.
The guy gives you a public add, with his phone number, then invites you to his home, it is not reasonable to automatically think the deal is crooked.
Some guys assume anyone paying one penny less than they pay for something is stealing it, or it is stolen. That is more a personal reflection on them than anything about prices.

 

[voidifused]

This has been one funny read
I am still laughing at the part were people think they can not come take the box back and the dealers tell them out right they have.
Believe it or not you can repo most things, i used to sell chain saws with my old man, people who didn't pay, you just went and got them back and there is nothing they can do. I had to use a saber saw to cut open the back of a guys 1 ton truck because he said "to bad", it was to bad for him all the damnage caused when he could have justed opened it, this with 2 police officers standing right there.
Plame and simple if you owe that compain money on that item, they WILL get it back and there is nothing you can do, other then pay for it again in this case.

 

[Skyline]

Perhaps our illustrious government needs to step in and regulate the toolbox industry, providing a titling service, helping to prevent fiascos like this thread.

Makes me hesitant to ever buy a box from anyone but the dealer - I don't want to buy a box, and then have the seller say it was stolen, providing "proof" with all of his dealer-issued paperwork.

A simple bill of sale refrencing the serial number of the box would certainly protect you in that case. If you you really want to be proper about it, ask for the seller's drivers license number, and put it on the bill of sale, so you have identified the seller.

Oh...and your sugestion about the government getting involved with a titling service is just plain silly. There's plenty of legal protection for all involved with current law.

 

[Chris Adams]

This has been one funny read
I am still laughing at the part were people think they can not come take the box back and the dealers tell them out right they have.
Believe it or not you can repo most things, i used to sell chain saws with my old man, people who didn't pay, you just went and got them back and there is nothing they can do. I had to use a saber saw to cut open the back of a guys 1 ton truck because he said "to bad", it was to bad for him all the damnage caused when he could have justed opened it, this with 2 police officers standing right there.
Plame and simple if you owe that compain money on that item, they WILL get it back and there is nothing you can do, other then pay for it again in this case.

Repo laws vary from state to state. I had a run in here in California with a repo guy, trying to take my wife's car. That was back when we were first married.
The car was a Maverick, I gave her, paid cash from a lot.
Middle of the night, the guy climbed the fence and hotwired the car. I have dogs. When his girlfriend (yup, real pro) was trying to open the gate so he could drive out, I gently tapped on the driver’s window and let him see my 4 inch model 29. Then I suggested he get out of the car. He did. Then I gently suggested he lay on the ground. He did. Then his girlfriend started screaming at me.
He told her to shut the f up. Fun times.

He kept telling me he had the right, all up to the time the sheriff took him away. He only did three days. Seems the cops couldn’t positively identify him till Monday. Don’t get arrested on a Friday.
The paperwork he showed the cop was for a Pinto, by the way, different color, different street.
I then took him to small claims court for the damage to the fence and the dashboard. Got 1800 bucks from the company that was stupid enough to employ him. Fair, enough. He was packing a pistol unlawfully and I could have shot him with no recourse.
Bosses son.

 

[SteveV]

I wouldn't agree with that...when you're making the loan to someone who needs it to make a living and you know where the property is going to be...or supposed to be (workplace). Any loan is technically a 'risk'




Think about it though...if you sold a box with a lien on it, wouldn't you try and get enough info from the buyer...esp. if he was clueless like Kyrthi thinks he should be...so when the owner of the box comes looking for it, you can point them in the buyer's direction?
Dave, you have any stories from your own experience repossessing boxes?




That's the nature of the product. Wouldn't it be easier to have a secured loan for a toolbox as opposed to a diamond ring? Sure it would...different products have different risks. With the ring, you probably don't allow it into the buyer's possession until they've paid for it. That logic doesn't work with the toolbox...the buyer needs it to make the money to pay it off.




I wouldn't immediately label people who don't pay back their debts as scumbags...esp. in these times. There could be a lot of legitimate reasons for that. What happens when they can't pay their debts...what they do next...that's the test of character.

I would label as scumbags those who sell stuff that doesn't belong to them. And those that should know better, and buy things they should realize is likely not the seller's property.

My whole point on this is, I think the tool trucks were making dumb decisions with who they are giving credit to, and I think the responsibility for who owes what should be on the shoulders of the creditor and debtor, not a 3rd party buyer.

I feel like the tool box company's are in a bind because of all these dumb loans, and now they're expecting all potential buyers to call and check with them to get permission before any purchases can be made. I really don't expect a buyer to hunt down the serial number of a tool box to find out if money is still owed on it, just like I don't expect to buy a used ratchet and check with Snap On to see if the original buyer has paid for it in full. Most people would be completely unaware of that some tool boxes are serial numbered and have liens on them.

Personally, I wouldn't want to purchase a tool box with a lien on it because I think it's wrong, but I have a hard time mustering up much outrage on behalf of these tool company's that made these loans. They gave out credit to anyone with a pulse because they were greedy and wanted to lock in a high amount of interest payments, and now it's bitten them in the ***. It's a lot like the sub-prime lenders.

When I said these people that skip out on their debts are scumbags, I meant for people who flip a box that they haven't paid for, but I also think people who live vastly beyond their means are also scumbags. You can be a mechanic without a $12,000 tool box, I know several who get by just fine without one. A lot of these tool box owners didn't have a pot to piss in, but that didn't stop them from owning the best.

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

My whole point on this is, I think the tool trucks were making dumb decisions with who they are giving credit to, and I think the responsibility for who owes what should be on the shoulders of the creditor and debtor, not a 3rd party buyer.

I feel like the tool box company's are in a bind because of all these dumb loans, and now they're expecting all potential buyers to call and check with them to get permission before any purchases can be made. I really don't expect a buyer to hunt down the serial number of a tool box to find out if money is still owed on it, just like I don't expect to buy a used ratchet and check with Snap On to see if the original buyer has paid for it in full. Most people would be completely unaware of that some tool boxes are serial numbered and have liens on them.

Personally, I wouldn't want to purchase a tool box with a lien on it because I think it's wrong, but I have a hard time mustering up much outrage on behalf of these tool company's that made these loans. They gave out credit to anyone with a pulse because they were greedy and wanted to lock in a high amount of interest payments, and now it's bitten them in the ***. It's a lot like the sub-prime lenders.

When I said these people that skip out on their debts are scumbags, I meant for people who flip a box that they haven't paid for, but I also think people who live vastly beyond their means are also scumbags. You can be a mechanic without a $12,000 tool box, I know several who get by just fine without one. A lot of these tool box owners didn't have a pot to piss in, but that didn't stop them from owning the best.

I totally agree with this sentiment.

I also think using the actual toolbox as collateral is a really bad idea, but my guess is that's the only system they can come up with since most of their customers have such poor credit and no other form of collateral to begin with.

"Tool truck" company's are really just loan company's disguised as tool sellers. The financing and credit is where these tool company's make their money, and it's why their products are so damn expensive.

 

[kythri]

First off, my example was if a seller was asking noticeably less than the others...like 50% or less what the going price is. Secondly, there's no way a tight *** like yourself would pay 60% of retail anything Snap on, Mac, Matco or whoever has for sale.

Yup, you sure know me. I'm actually talking to my local dealer about a box right now, but I better go pucker up and just shelve the whole idea.

you CONTINUE to argue that you should be able to buy whatever you please, and if there's a lien, so be it, the lien holder can just f/k off.

Reading comprehension is critical.

You bought it off someone who didn't raise any flags with you, it was a good deal, and they can go screw themselves if they think they're going to take YOUR toolbox. You're no better than the dirtbag who sells a box that he knows isn't his, if you buy the box from him knowing what you now know.

Again, reading comprehension is critical. As I said, I wouldn't knowingly buy such a box. However, in the unlikely event it were to happen, no, I'm not going to willingly give up something I paid a few thousand dollars for.

You seem to think that ignorance is bliss and removes you from all responsiblity. As others have posted on here, that's not the case.

So, I'm a dirtbag because I'm not going to willingly screw myself out of my money? Sorry, pal, my money means more to me than your money, as evidently yours means more to you than mine does. It's a pretty natural thing.

I'm stirring up ****?! All anyone has to do is read your posts. Have you? Just in this thread alone, the animosity you have towards these companies is obvious.

Really?

Let's see...start with your signature line, "Snap-On: There is a Difference™ - in the price."

A statement of observation in parody of a comical trademark.

You're always railing about these tool dealers selling stuff for much more than it's worth. If that's the way you feel, then you have a choice, DON'T BUY IT! I'm sure I'm not the only one that's gotten sick of reading you ***** and moan about tool prices.

Actually, I haven't gotten into a ton of that lately, and conversely, I've gotten sick of reading you ***** and moan about the lack of quality of non-truck brands, so, right back at you, bub.

ETA: I'm walking away from this thread. Bye!

 

[35mastr]

A little O/T but,How many of those screamen deals that alot of you guys are getting on Ebay for all these truck branded tools. I bet no one checks to see if they are actually paid for.

I highly dought that anyone is asking the seller if they paid for them in full.

Not to mention all the stuff I have been seeing here on GJ that is truck branded that is being purchased from the pawn shops.You can just about guarantee that it is either not paid for or most likley stolen. Thats why it ended up there.

I have never checked any numbers on boxes that I have bought over the years. Even the ones that I took on trade as a dealer. The thought never even crossed my mind till I started here at GJ.

If I was ever to get really good deal on another one. I dont think that I would even bother.

It seems that alot of people are just paranoid about this whole buying a box from someone.

I talked with some of the dealers here about this whole idea.They just laughed. They dont check them either.

Also from the dealer end of it. These boxes that are never paid for end up in your yearly bad debt.Which is something you dont want alot of. But it will keep you from having to pay Uncle Sam a whole lot sometimes which is a good thing at the end of the year when you do you taxes. Especially if your doing in the range of 300k a year in sales.

 

[Titus]

My neighbor's friend bought a SO box from a co-worker. He never gave a thought to what might be owed on the box. Several months later, the seller (now out of work) started getting pressured by SO. They finally came to his apartment to repossess the box. He explained that he had sold it, and provided the name of the buyer to SO. SO reported the incident to the local police, the seller was charged with grand theft, and the police went with SO to the buyers house. He was told that he was in possession of stolen property, and was ordered to turn it over. Last I heard he was taking the seller to small claims court, but he wasn't expecting to ever get all of his money back.

 

[Garage_Mahal]

Is there any other business out there that still run on types of credit the tool trucks offer? Large appliances used to be sold that way. I can't think of any other business that still runs that way.

 

[35mastr]

I think Rent A Center and appliance places like wise still do it as far as I know.

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

My whole point on this is, I think the tool trucks were making dumb decisions with who they are giving credit to, and I think the responsibility for who owes what should be on the shoulders of the creditor and debtor, not a 3rd party buyer.

I feel like the tool box company's are in a bind because of all these dumb loans, and now they're expecting all potential buyers to call and check with them to get permission before any purchases can be made. I really don't expect a buyer to hunt down the serial number of a tool box to find out if money is still owed on it, just like I don't expect to buy a used ratchet and check with Snap On to see if the original buyer has paid for it in full. Most people would be completely unaware of that some tool boxes are serial numbered and have liens on them.

Personally, I wouldn't want to purchase a tool box with a lien on it because I think it's wrong, but I have a hard time mustering up much outrage on behalf of these tool company's that made these loans. They gave out credit to anyone with a pulse because they were greedy and wanted to lock in a high amount of interest payments, and now it's bitten them in the ***. It's a lot like the sub-prime lenders.

When I said these people that skip out on their debts are scumbags, I meant for people who flip a box that they haven't paid for, but I also think people who live vastly beyond their means are also scumbags. You can be a mechanic without a $12,000 tool box, I know several who get by just fine without one. A lot of these tool box owners didn't have a pot to piss in, but that didn't stop them from owning the best.

Steve, I agree with your sentiment, but a few points...

1) The responsiblity IS on the buyer, BUT, as several here have said, it is transferred to the owner of the box if he buys it from the original buyer and it's not paid off. The secondary buyer may be clueless, but it IS the tool company's property until it's paid off. No different than a car that the original loan holder sold and didn't pay off. That's why you make sure the title is clear when you buy a used car.

2) There is no outrage on my part re: this situation. As I said before, I'm not in the repair trade and have never bought a tool let alone a toolbox "off the truck." The whole reason this thread has continued all day is that certain people think that if they do end up buying a box with a lien...knowingly or unknowingly, that it's theirs. They don't understand that someone else's property is someone else's property. It's really a simple concept. Most of us learned it by Kindergarten.

3) Whether tool companies made "dumb" loans or not is irrelevant. Again, if it's someone else's property then that means it ain't yours.

Again, reading comprehension is critical. As I said, I wouldn't knowingly buy such a box. However, in the unlikely event it were to happen, no, I'm not going to willingly give up something I paid a few thousand dollars for.

I didn't say you "knowingly" would by a box with a lien, I said "knowing what you know now" re: checking the serial numbers with the manufacturer.

For the 999th time, if you buy something someone else legally owns, YOU DON'T HAVE A CLAIM TO IT. Doesn't matter how much you paid...you have no legal claim. Get it?!

Actually, I haven't gotten into a ton of that lately, and conversely, I've gotten sick of reading you ***** and moan about the lack of quality of non-truck brands, so, right back at you, bub.

Okkkayyyyy?!?

ETA: I'm walking away from this thread. Bye!

Of course you are. You didn't have a valid argument, and you're throwing in the towel. I'm going to give you the benefit of you doubt and think this is b/c you finally realized that.

 

[Thedroid]

I believe the when I bought my SO box the contract read that SO owned the box until it was paid in full, and they had the right to repo the box if I wasn't paying the note. That goes for tools also. You have to keep them in good condition until they are paid off.

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

My neighbor's friend bought a SO box from a co-worker. He never gave a thought to what might be owed on the box. Several months later, the seller (now out of work) started getting pressured by SO. They finally came to his apartment to repossess the box. He explained that he had sold it, and provided the name of the buyer to SO. SO reported the incident to the local police, the seller was charged with grand theft, and the police went with SO to the buyers house. He was told that he was in possession of stolen property, and was ordered to turn it over. Last I heard he was taking the seller to small claims court, but he wasn't expecting to ever get all of his money back.

What a great use of tax payer resources. Snap On is using the police to essentially be repo men because their dealers were giving out loans to shady people. I have a hard time getting the Police to come out and file a report when my car's been broken into.

If I was the buyer that unknowingly bought a tool box with a lien on it, I wouldn't just hand it over like that back to Snap On. Id be like, "What tool box?" Snap On can take it up with the original buyer, and sue him in court. I'm not going to be left holding the bag. If Snap On or Matco wants to make risky loans, they better be willing to pay the price if it goes south, because I'm not going to pay for their mistake.

If I knew a box had a lien on it, I'd stay away, but I really think an outside buyer shouldn't have to hire a private investigator if they're buying a used tool box. It's between the tool company and the borrower to remedy a situation when the original buyer can't pay off the remaining debt.