Crappy Installers

[Crossthread]

How is it I always find the worst installers. Purchased a Modine HDS unit and had it installed this morning. Well I had to work so when I got home I looked up and noticed they had only connected the exhaust. I called the installers and they were like well you don't need the intake plumbed. I told them I spent an extra $400 to get a seperate combustion heater and they hung up on me. Oh, I am so ticked. Oh well, will just do that my part myself I guess. It's just so darn frustrating. Also, I noticed they used some flex pipe for the new gas line, but when the dropped the line down from the atttic to the unit they used black pipe instead of flex. Don't most of you use flex pipe to the unit? Any pics? Thanks.

 

[Crossthread]

Flex pipe might be speced in the instructions for noise and vibration.

Stop payment until they run the intake pipe

I'll wait for them to call back tomorrow - if they don't then first call goes to Amex.

So it is ok to use flex pipe to the unit? They didn't "have" to use black pipe?

 

[Junkman]

The flex pipe is used to avoid any possibility of the pipe cracking as a result of vibration while the unit is running. If they were to hard pipe it, eventually, the threads of the black iron pipe might crack causing a gas leak. If they were experienced installers, they would have known that the intake needed to be piped. If they were experienced and in a rush to get the job done and get out of there, they succeeded in trying to pull the wool over your eyes. If that is the case, then they will not be coming back too soon. I will assume that they were required to pull a permit to do this job? If that is the case, then have the inspector check out the job, and point out that they didn't complete the job as the installation instructions indicate. They won't get another permit in your area once the inspector learns that they take short cuts and gamble with others safety. Building inspectors are the ones that you want to always keep on your side.

 

[jklingel]

Cross: I feel for ya. I hate it when you hire someone and they do a PP job, probably worse than you would have done. I had that happen on new flooring in the kitchen I slaved to remodel; I wanted the floor to look "professional" for the boss. Carp. Worse job than I EVER did. "Sue 'em or shoot 'em" (in a manner of speaking) if they don't WILLINGLY fix it. Good luck. j

 

[rickairmedic]

Alot of equipmentt doesnt require the intake to be plumbed ( alot depends on the area the equipmentt is in and the amount of makeup air available for said equipmentt ) in a garage type space there is more than likely plenty of makeup air available for the heater to use for combustion . I usually dont run a second line unless the customer requests itt or the location and size of equipment calls for it . I also do all my installs to the letter of the code book thats why the inspectors like me they dont have to pry anymore just walk in and stick a sticker on the unit .Code also says the black iron only has to exit the unit and have a six inch drip legg otherwise flex is accepted prettymuch nationwide.


Rick

 

[mulepackin]

Maybe I'm just dense, but why in the name of all that is good, would any installer worth a damn, install a seperate combustion air heater without plumbing the intake????? Doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose of "seperate combustion air". Why not just get the standard combustion unit?

 

[Franz©]

How does the work order read?

Was this "installer" the low bidder?

 

[Crossthread]

How does the work order read?

Was this "installer" the low bidder?

Nope, not the low bidder. Got two bids and spent the extra $75 on the higher. Work order reads with necessary gas line and piping run. Waiting for the call back now. Hmm, never thought of the permit route. Is it too late to get one?

 

[Steve Szakats]

I bought 2 Mr Heaters and paid to have them "professionally" installed. They did such a crappy job that I have since completely uninstalled the units and re-installed them myself. I don't think your typical HVAC company does that many garage heater installs...so maybe they just don't have the experience?

 

[rickairmedic]

I am a HVAC professional I own an HVAC company in Louisville Ky. all houshold furnaces now have a draft induction system in them 90% and above furnaces use PVC vent pipes and have the opttion of running a second pipe for the intake air if needed for tthe instalation .The only units I deal with tthat require a second pipe are the Carrier Infinity series 96% furnaces all the others use a vent table to determin if the second pipe is needed for the instalion . Most of the others do nott require the second pipe if there is enough make up air available for the unitt where it is installed . I have nott installed a Hot Dog heater yet and will do a little digging myself for you and lett you know what I find .

Rick

 

[Junkman]

I am a HVAC professional I own an HVAC company in Louisville Ky. all houshold furnaces now have a draft induction system in them 90% and above furnaces use PVC vent pipes and have the opttion of running a second pipe for the intake air if needed for tthe instalation .The only units I deal with tthat require a second pipe are the Carrier Infinity series 96% furnaces all the others use a vent table to determin if the second pipe is needed for the instalion . Most of the others do nott require the second pipe if there is enough make up air available for the unitt where it is installed . I have nott installed a Hot Dog heater yet and will do a little digging myself for you and lett you know what I find .

Rick

Even if the unit doesn't require the make up air as a result of air leakage into the space, doesn't it just make sense to use the second pipe that is provided to bring fresh air into the combustion chamber just to help eliminate drawing in cold air from all the "leaks" in the building? To me, this is just common sense that you would do as much as possible to keep the warm conditioned air inside the space rather than using it for combustion air unnecessarily. Anything less than doing the best for your customer in helping them to get the maximum efficiency out of the furnace is poor workmanship in my opinion. If it is your goal to maximize profits, then do better work, and charge accordingly, and both you and the customer will be satisfied. If you do shoddy work, then the customer will be telling everyone that they know how bad your work is, even if you come back and correct the mistakes at a later date.

 

[Sack]

I would be more concerned about them using black pipe leading to the unit rather than flexible pipe. Leaks from vibration could equal dirtnap.

 

[rickairmedic]

Even if the unit doesn't require the make up air as a result of air leakage into the space, doesn't it just make sense to use the second pipe that is provided to bring fresh air into the combustion chamber just to help eliminate drawing in cold air from all the "leaks" in the building? To me, this is just common sense that you would do as much as possible to keep the warm conditioned air inside the space rather than using it for combustion air unnecessarily. Anything less than doing the best for your customer in helping them to get the maximum efficiency out of the furnace is poor workmanship in my opinion. If it is your goal to maximize profits, then do better work, and charge accordingly, and both you and the customer will be satisfied. If you do shoddy work, then the customer will be telling everyone that they know how bad your work is, even if you come back and correct the mistakes at a later date.

Junkman the air leaks into the building exist regardless the furnace wont make them worse they are already there . Now with that said there are changes that will be comming into the code books on new construction due to the fact that newer homes are being built so tight that makeup air will be required on any new construction . I will also say that due to the lack of makeup air in most new homes MOLD and other indoor air quality problems are growing at a scarry rate .The code peaple are also looking at ways to solve this problem but I can prettty well assure you there are few and I mean few garages out there today that cant support makeup air for a hot dog heater.


Rick

 

[Junkman]

Combustion requires air, and if you supply the combustion chamber with air from the outside, the there is going to be less air infiltration into the garage from the outside. If you are pulling the air for combustion from the room, then cold air has to enter the room to make up this loss of warm conditioned air. I am very familiar with very tightly built homes, and the air to air heat exchangers that are required to change the air in the home to prevent stale odors and moisture / mold issues. No furnace can operate in a vacuum, but there is no need to create more drafts than those that are already there by poor construction techniques. Using a furnace that is designed for getting its combustion air from the outside, without properly plumbing it, is tantamount to leaving the door open while the heater is running to make up the combustion air requirement.

 

[mulepackin]

Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the reason for a seperate combustion air heater in a garage have more to do with eliminating the possibility of using air that is potentially volatile with paint fumes, gasoline vapors (yeah I know they are heavier than and settle low, but you know what I'm getting at here) dusts, etc.for combustion and averting a potentially hazardous situation? The availability of combustion air in the structure, and the potential for draft intrainment, while important, all seem to be overshadowed by the safety factor to me. That being said, my personal furnace is a regular HD75 and I am cautious.