CS-309, HAIC etc.

[junkle]

New floor being poured in the next week. The mason swears by CS-309 (2 coats -- one after a few hours, second 12 hours later) for curing and as a sealer.

Does anyone here have experience with this product? If so would you care to give your opinions?

I noticed the same company has a sealer to apply after CS-309 (HAIC and HAIC Plus). I haven't had a chance to talk to the contractor about these options but I do know they will make the floor shinier than just the CS-309 (actually prefer a more matte floor which I would think would be less slick when wet).

Again anyone care to share experiences with HAIC or HAIC plus?

I don't need a floor that you can drive a cleated 'dozer over but I do want a decent sealer for general garage use (oil, grease, gas, dirt, etc). Prefer one I don't have to redo every 5 years or so. Also don't want to get into grinding or spending $1000 just to seal a floor (large slab area in excess of 1000 sq ft).

Thanks to those who respond,

j

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

This product is being used to help slow moisture evaporation during the curing process.
If you want cheap this is it. It will not stand up to gas but maybe it will take some oil spots for a season or two.

Comparable to a very thin acrylic sealer, not designed for garage use.

 

[dcs Inc]

CS-309 is not a wear surface sealer. It's made to slow the hydration of the concrete and wears off quickly. Low solids but does what is is intended for. gene

 

[junkle]

So let me know if I have this right . . .

New slab use CS-309 for curing (maybe water a bit as well).

A week or so later coat with a densifying product (I think Liqui-hard if you stay in the same product line as CS-309 for compatibility). No grinding etching, etc if done on new slab, right?

Would it then need sealed as well or is densifying enough?

I am not interested in making it shiny (actually prefer it isn't) I just want it to hold okay and be somewhat resistant to staining. I don't want to fall on my *** every time my boots are wet.

Just general (non-commercial) garage space that may have lift one day (will be filled with junk, I mean projects, for now).

thanks,

j

 

[dcs Inc]

If you are wanting a deep penetrating densifyer you don't want to fill the surface pores with an acrylic sealer, be it 309 or any other, causing a block. A densifyer penetrates the surface and causes a chemical reaction with the free lime in the surface paste, causing it to crystallize, thus the harder surface.

Have the concrete poured and then water cure it. It's the best way anyway. Give it 30 days or so to cure and apply the densifyer. Use a diluted urethane with a very thin coat and the burnish it with a high speed burnisher. This will give you a poor mans polished floor. It will need to be burnished more often than a real polished floor but this is much quicker and cheaper. (Don't call this a polished floor) Polish guys take a little offense to that.

One thing to watch out for is the pH levels of the surface. A high reading means there's a lot of salts bleeding out of the concrete. This can lead to bond failure of this system because all the micro pores are filled with calcium hydroxide causing efflorescence.

Wash the floor with a mixture of ammonia diluted 10-1 with water. Scrub a little and wash completely off. Let dry and start your proceedure. gene

 

[junkle]

Pardon me if I am laboring the point I just want to understand this so I don't make any foolish mistakes on the new slab. I appreciate you replying and helping me.

WR meadows sells something that sounds like a densifier yet can be put on the new slab as a curing agent (I would water as well after the "dry" time on the product ends to be sure of a good cure). Have you used it or any of their other products? Can a product densify and be a curing aid at the same time?
http://www.wrmeadows.com/liqui-hard-concrete-densifier-chemical-hardener/

Is burnishing primarily for looks or does it make the floor/finish hold up better? I'm not too concerned with the floor looking polished. I am wondering if the urethane without the burnish step would be good enough.

pH level testing, done after slab dries? Should I be testing dust or just wet the slab and slap a pH strip on it in a few places?

Should I test pH before urethane or before anything is done?

Ammonia wash is only if pH is high? Seems odd as ammonia is basic.

thanks again,

j

 

[darkk]

Maybe I can help a little here. The easiest way is to use no sealer on the fresh concrete as it will need to be removed if you want to coat it later. I did a 30x30 6" slab a couple years ago. Keep the slab VERYwet for a minimum of 7 days with a widw spray sprinkler attached to a hose. What you are trying to do is prevent the concrete from curing to fast and cracking. You should also want to use a plastic sheet 6 mil minimum thickness taled at the seams to prevent the sand under the concrete pour from wicking the water out from below also causing fast cure and to prevent ground water from sucking through to thetop after the structure is built over it later. I would do some fast internet searching on the subject of concrete curing. Most concrete guys give you little to no info when pouring your slab. Good luck...

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Gene is trying to tell you that the curing agent will foul the absorption of the densifier.
I would follow the wet curing method Gene and Darkk are advising. Once this is over, spray a liberal coat of densifier on it and call it a day.


The densifier will dust-proof the slab and make it more impervious to liquid absorption. It will still stain however. If you want to stop stains, you need a topical sealer.

The magic bullet you are looking for does not exist. Even fully polished floors will stain to some degree.

Oh and shop around, there are better deals on densifier than the Meadows product.
http://legacyindustrial.net/cart/concrete-densifier-c-10.html

 

[junkle]

I understand curing. Not sure I can get sprinkler coverage for 1600 sq ft. I figure I can mist it with a hose 2-3 times a day but that is about the best I could do. I figured I would do that as well as a curing agent so the curing agent would help between waterings.

I'm not trying to get a magic bullet product I just don't have a desire to grind/etch/polish. I would simply like something I can apply (maybe renew if needed every 5-10 years) to help the floor last. I expect I will eventually have stains and marks on the floor. Not planning a show floor. After all of this I will probably chip the first day I use it :/

I suppose the thing that has me confused the most is the densifier and curing agent in one product I linked earlier. It seems most separate those two things and this company claims to have them in one application.

The reason I started discussing the Meadows product is I can get it locally and the mason uses the curing agent often and likes it.

Sorry if I am being unclear or driving people crazy.

j

 

[Kevin C]

The curing process of concrete effectively stops (pretty much forever) once it is allowed to dry and the longer it cures the stronger it gets.

The best way to wet cure is to put a barrier between the top of the concrete and the surrounding air. Any barrier that will block CO2 from the cement paste ( prevent carbonation) results in a harder top surface of your floor. I dont think the effect of CO2 in the air on how concrete cures is discussed very often. This effect may explain why so many floors have a top layer that dusts so easily and is a bit soft.

Cold weather cured concrete is more susceptible to this. From what I have read, the slowed hydration process allows CO2 in the air a longer opportunity to react with the cement.

A worst case is to use portable heaters to warm the area during the curing process. The extra CO2 will definitely damage the top surface.

On my slab I used plastic sheeting to isolate the the air from the top surface and wet cured it for 30 days plus. I know its overkill... But once the plastic was down, it was easy just to leave it there. 7 days of curing gets you 90% strength. 28 days to 98%. I'm selfish... I wanted every bit of available strength / maximum cure.

Again, part of this was by keeping the cement wet and the other part was by reducing C02 exposure.

There are other ways to isolate the concrete, flooding is one of them. Just watering it wont get you the same result as a real wet cure. My experiance is that many people in the business are not aware of the effect of CO2 and will think your a bit nuts. There is a lot of research to back up using a full wet cure.

My understanding is that some of the spay on barriers will do the same thing. I went with plastic to avoid any issues with the coatings that are going to be put down after curing and drying.

http://www.concrete.org/tkc/pdf/jl52-27.pdf Interesting Read...

Kevin

 

[dcs Inc]

Good points made Kevin. I'd like to add one thing. The plastic works well but will leave permanent pattern marks/stains on the surface. This isn't a problem if using an overlay or a pigmented epoxy system. The burlap wet cure method doesn't leave markings as much as the plastic but requires to constantly keep the burlap wet.

By the way, there's a bunch of concrete poured everyday that doesn't get sealed, doesn't get a cure n seal on it or wet cured. Pour your concrete, keep it as wet as you can. Let it cure and do your thing. gene

 

[Kevin C]

http://www.tkproduct.com/Curing%20Concrete.PDF

Another interesting link...

 

[junkle]

dcs -- Yeah I think about all the stuff I have helped pour over the years and some of it got watered but that was about it. I guess the big difference is I am paying for this and want to make sure it lasts as long as I do.

Good to know about the plastic leaving lines. I don't think that will bother me (if it does I'll park something there. heh.

I didn't know about the CO2. Interesting. Funny how complicated concrete can be when you dig into what all is really going on when you mix some up and pour it. A whole lot of chemistry going on there.

Nothing against Legacy Industrial but I appreciate some feedback from people who don't have anything to sell. I have a hard time trusting salesmen (and unfortunately this is not something I have several shots at and will get experience with before needing it). Really funny thing is they have a curing agent/densifier product (HD39) but seem to downplay the curing aspect of it. In fact it is only on one sheet and not even in the application instructions. Weird. Makes me think it is possible though.

If I put plastic on it and water it that will buy 28 more days to worry/read about this before I need to do something. Who knows maybe there will be a sale or something. Most likely I'll just get fed up and say "the Hell with it" and buy something and see how it goes.

thanks again,

j

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

dcs -- Yeah I think about all the stuff I have helped pour over the years and some of it got watered but that was about it. I guess the big difference is I am paying for this and want to make sure it lasts as long as I do.

Good to know about the plastic leaving lines. I don't think that will bother me (if it does I'll park something there. heh.

I didn't know about the CO2. Interesting. Funny how complicated concrete can be when you dig into what all is really going on when you mix some up and pour it. A whole lot of chemistry going on there.

Nothing against Legacy Industrial but I appreciate some feedback from people who don't have anything to sell. I have a hard time trusting salesmen (and unfortunately this is not something I have several shots at and will get experience with before needing it). Really funny thing is they have a curing agent/densifier product (HD39) but seem to downplay the curing aspect of it. In fact it is only on one sheet and not even in the application instructions. Weird. Makes me think it is possible though.

If I put plastic on it and water it that will buy 28 more days to worry/read about this before I need to do something. Who knows maybe there will be a sale or something. Most likely I'll just get fed up and say "the Hell with it" and buy something and see how it goes.

thanks again,

j

J:

No harm, just trying to help. Buy, don't buy, it's ok.
All (3) blends can be used to help slow the dehydration process.
As any densifier will.

In regards, to salespeople, well we all have to make a living and some of us let you know upfront that this is what we do and some beat around the bush because they are squeamish about asking for your business.

If you work for a company and they make a product, you can thank a salesperson for making the deal that gives you a job to do.

Good luck.

 

[junkle]

Legacy -- I do appreciate you being upfront, just looking for as many opinions as I can get.

j