Curious Electrical Puzzle

[vwangler]

I have a curious electrical puzzle for you all, and while it isn't strictly garage related... It is my experience that there are some very wise individuals that peruse this forum. About 4 weeks ago, I installed a Leveton motion sensing dimmer switch in the bathroom of my 'new-to-me' house. The switch worked fine for about a week and a half and then it was stuck on, even the little manual button for it wouldn't turn it off. I flipped the breaker a couple times to see if maybe the digital logic within the switch would somehow 'reset'. Nothing worked, so I just assumed the relay in the switch had already gone bad and left a message with Leveton to see how I could get it replaced. I left the switch in while I waited for a call back (still waiting), left it in (and on) for about 1 week. During that 1 week time I also installed a simple toggle dimmer switch in my living room which powered 4 75w incandescent can lights. A few days after installing the toggle dimmer I flipped it on, only to find that it would only light 1 of the 4 lights on the circuit (the one closest to the switch). The 1 light would dim to the lowest setting and go all the way to full brightness, but the other 4 lights on the circuit wouldn't light at all. Again, I assumed that since it's essentially a variable resistor it might have just been defective. This morning, I woke up to find that the motion sensor switch suddenly works again... along with the toggle dimmer. These two switches are on separate circuits and for the life of me I can not imagine why they would both suddenly start working again.

Now, there are two possible variables that I can think of: 1). today is warmer than it has been in a few weeks and 2). it's raining... so the humidity is likely higher than it has been. I tried cranking the heat pump on to see if it had something to do with the draw from the pump and air handler, but that did NOT seem to make a difference. Both switches are still operational and I am perplexed. Both the main and sub panel for the house are located in the garage... so they would theoretically be slightly warmer and probably be exposed to slightly higher humidity today. Please let me know what you think or if you have any advice on how I might further diagnose the problem. Thanks in advance!

 

[eljefino]

I don't really want to touch this voodoo but:

what sort of load is on the motion sensor (eg, CFL, incandescent etc) and does it have a neutral connection?

 

[Mustang51js]

Sounds like you might have a loose neutral somewhere. I would find what's on that circuit and double check all the connections. It does make it easier if you tested everything while it was happening. The light that stayed on was being back feed through the neutral causing it to stay on. Check outlets that might have a lot of use,say if you use a space heater or something like that, check outside outlets and such, j-boxes in ceiling if you have any. It's just a matter of time before it happens again.

 

[vwangler]

I don't really want to touch this voodoo but:

what sort of load is on the motion sensor (eg, CFL, incandescent etc) and does it have a neutral connection?

The motion sensor has a single 60w bulb, and it does have a neutral connection. Neither of the switches should be overloaded, and neither of the two switches got hot then or seem to get hot now. Would a loose neutral (assuming you aren't talking about the main) cause both problems since they are on separate circuits?

 

[CoopVA]

What model dimmers are they? Some are more finicky than others...

 

[vwangler]

Well, there is almost certainly a loose neutral in the circuit which powers my living room lights and plugs. I plugged my vacuum into one of the living room plugs and the can lights dim until the load (the vacuum) stops.

 

[vwangler]

What model dimmers are they? Some are more finicky than others...

Leveton

 

[CoopVA]

What model Leviton? They make a few...

 

[Mustang51js]

The motion sensor has a single 60w bulb, and it does have a neutral connection. Neither of the switches should be overloaded, and neither of the two switches got hot then or seem to get hot now. Would a loose neutral (assuming you aren't talking about the main) cause both problems since they are on separate circuits?

It's possible if they used a 3 wire for power and split the circuits. I would check for power in the switches if it does it again. One other possibility was an issue with that phase coming from the street and some other things on there you didn't notice. Only real way to figure it out is testing while it's doing it and that will let you know if it's a bad switch or not, a lot of the new dimmers are for led so they have a adjustment on the side of them,and just one more thing to go wrong.

 

[wheels2]

I have a curious electrical puzzle for you all, and while it isn't strictly garage related... It is my experience that there are some very wise individuals that peruse this forum. About 4 weeks ago, I installed a Leveton motion sensing dimmer switch in the bathroom of my 'new-to-me' house. The switch worked fine for about a week and a half and then it was stuck on, even the little manual button for it wouldn't turn it off. I flipped the breaker a couple times to see if maybe the digital logic within the switch would somehow 'reset'. Nothing worked, so I just assumed the relay in the switch had already gone bad and left a message with Leveton to see how I could get it replaced. I left the switch in while I waited for a call back (still waiting), left it in (and on) for about 1 week. During that 1 week time I also installed a simple toggle dimmer switch in my living room which powered 4 75w incandescent can lights. A few days after installing the toggle dimmer I flipped it on, only to find that it would only light 1 of the 4 lights on the circuit (the one closest to the switch). The 1 light would dim to the lowest setting and go all the way to full brightness, but the other 4 lights on the circuit wouldn't light at all. Again, I assumed that since it's essentially a variable resistor it might have just been defective. This morning, I woke up to find that the motion sensor switch suddenly works again... along with the toggle dimmer. These two switches are on separate circuits and for the life of me I can not imagine why they would both suddenly start working again.

Now, there are two possible variables that I can think of: 1). today is warmer than it has been in a few weeks and 2). it's raining... so the humidity is likely higher than it has been. I tried cranking the heat pump on to see if it had something to do with the draw from the pump and air handler, but that did NOT seem to make a difference. Both switches are still operational and I am perplexed. Both the main and sub panel for the house are located in the garage... so they would theoretically be slightly warmer and probably be exposed to slightly higher humidity today. Please let me know what you think or if you have any advice on how I might further diagnose the problem. Thanks in advance!

I don't think you will find a variable resistor in the dimmer. It probably works by pulse width modulation. The bathroom switch is likely an electronic solid state device as well. Any arcing from a loose connection could interfere with these devices. I would tighten all the connections in the panels as a starting point.

 

[Mustang51js]

Well, there is almost certainly a loose neutral in the circuit which powers my living room lights and plugs. I plugged my vacuum into one of the living room plugs and the can lights dim until the load (the vacuum) stops.

Check that outlet if you use it a lot for the vacuume,a lot of people back stab the outlets which makes them loose over time on heavy loads.

 

[PRH44]

I do believe Mustang51js is on to something. Can you tell us if the bathroom light works when the living room dimmer is in the off position? Does the living room fixture work when the bathroom dimmers is in the off position?

 

[vwangler]

I do believe Mustang51js is on to something. Can you tell us if the bathroom light works when the living room dimmer is in the off position? Does the living room fixture work when the bathroom dimmers is in the off position?

Yea, just tested this... both of the lights/switches appear to work in all combinations.

 

[CoopVA]

I do believe Mustang51js is on to something. Can you tell us if the bathroom light works when the living room dimmer is in the off position? Does the living room fixture work when the bathroom dimmers is in the off position?

Beat me to it...

 

[vwangler]

Check that outlet if you use it a lot for the vacuume,a lot of people back stab the outlets which makes them loose over time on heavy loads.

Found 1 loose back stabbed neutral in a floor plug in the living room... has probably been that way since the house was built (7 years ago). The wire was far to crooked to have ever seated fully. I don't mind back stabbed receptacles, but it seems like this particular contractor preferred them over the screwed terminals... guessing they were in a rush.

 

[vwangler]

What model Leviton? They make a few...

I apologize, I read 'model' as 'brand' obviously. I'd have to get back to you on the models.... because I naively threw the boxes/literature away once they had been shown to work.

Thanks for all of the help thus far, I'm going to keep checking connections. Probably need to check both of my panels for loose connections too, but that's going to have to wait.. because my main disconnect is outside and it is pouring rain.

 

[CoopVA]

I apologize, I read 'model' as 'brand' obviously. I'd have to get back to you on the models.... because I naively threw the boxes/literature away once they had been shown to work.

Thanks for all of the help thus far, I'm going to keep checking connections. Probably need to check both of my panels for loose connections too, but that's going to have to wait.. because my main disconnect is outside and it is pouring rain.

No problem. Be safe!

 

[Mustang51js]

Found 1 loose back stabbed neutral in a floor plug in the living room... has probably been that way since the house was built (7 years ago). The wire was far to crooked to have ever seated fully. I don't mind back stabbed receptacles, but it seems like this particular contractor preferred them over the screwed terminals... guessing they were in a rush.

Yeah they back stab them to save time,but I have had a lot of trouble shooting calls from people that turned out it was from back stabbing. Even if the wire looks fine in the outlet it could still be making a bad connection. One other thing I've found a lot is the neutrals in the switches come apart in the wire nut,it may look connected but from heating up and cooling it separates the tiniest bit. You may have to wait till the issue comes again and be ready with a tester

 

[CoopVA]

Yeah they back stab them to save time,but I have had a lot of trouble shooting calls from people that turned out it was from back stabbing. Even if the wire looks fine in the outlet it could still be making a bad connection. One other thing I've found a lot is the neutrals in the switches come apart in the wire nut,it may look connected but from heating up and cooling it separates the tiniest bit. You may have to wait till the issue comes again and be ready with a tester

Yep.... I never back stab. Twist the wires together before putting on wire nuts too.... You do not HAVE to do it that way, but I have found that it is worth the extra effort...

 

[bczygan]

Sorry...couldn't resist.

 

[CoopVA]

Sorry...couldn't resist.

No doubt!

 

[Keister]

stray harmonics or high frequency resonance from another source can mess with household grade electronics. Anybody in the neighborhood using a square wave tig?

 

[vwangler]

stray harmonics or high frequency resonance from another source can mess with household grade electronics. Anybody in the neighborhood using a square wave tig?

Pretty sure I'm the only one in the neighborhood with a TIG... and it's a little 180 Diversion inverter machine.

 

[Rookie2]

BAd connection. check the breaker connection to the panel.

I have had replace aluminum bus panels because of corrosion at the breaker stab in

 

[MrMark]

It's normal for lights to dim somewhat when you plug a vacuum in, or any heavy motor load for that matter, especially when you start it. How much are they dimming? How long are your wiring runs? Most vacuums pull enough amps to cause the voltage to drop and dim the lights. Lights are really sensitive to voltage, that is one of the ways they are dimmed after all.

 

[ddawg16]

I'm using the Lutron occupancy and dimmer sensors.

They are designed to work on CFL, incandescent and LED lights.

They 'require' that a ground wire be hooked up. Not a neutral...but a ground. Without it it..they don't work.

I would pull up the install instructions on the dimmer and make sure it's wired per the instructions.

 

[vwangler]

I'm using the Lutron occupancy and dimmer sensors.

They are designed to work on CFL, incandescent and LED lights.

They 'require' that a ground wire be hooked up. Not a neutral...but a ground. Without it it..they don't work.

I would pull up the install instructions on the dimmer and make sure it's wired per the instructions.

The motion sensing dimmer switch I'm using has both a neutral and a ground, and both are connected per the manual.

 

[Mustang51js]

There was definitely a issue with neutrals somewhere,just keep an eye on it and be ready to test circuit if it happens again. Things don't just fix themselves, it will happen again at some point.

 

[volleyball]

Are your lights on outlet circuits? That's not the way to do it.

 

[vwangler]

Are your lights on outlet circuits? That's not the way to do it.

I completely agree, but yes, my house (with the exception of the kitchen, garage, and bathrooms) share 1 15 amp circuit for lights and plugs. I'm out of my depth here, so I've got an electrician that I've used before coming out on Friday to take a look, hopefully get a quote on some other stuff at the same time. I always feel a little defeated when I have to call in the pros... especially when it turns out to be something simple, or worse... something I've done. Live and learn I guess... I'll let you guys know what he finds.

 

[vwangler]

Are your lights on outlet circuits? That's not the way to do it.

Keep in mind that I live in the county in Alabama... the code is pretty far behind the rest of the country here.

 

[volleyball]

There are lots of jobs not hard to do but critical. electrical, vehicle brakes and such are items where paying a pro is cheaper than running into a problem.
It is like winter tires in snow country. A new set of tires is usually cheaper than your deductible. Puts it into perspective.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

Sorry...couldn't resist.

That's a Mogwai, not a Gremlin. Just don't get it wet, or feed it after midnight, or some ****.

 

[volleyball]

All I remember from the movie is Phoebe Cates