Currently have oil for heating, thinking about switching

[66HertzClone]

I've moved into a home built in 1977 that is heated by an oil fired hot water three zone system. The boiler is the original one and is need of replacement, there are a few small leaks and it supplies the domestic hot water which is sketchy at times. There is a natural gas pipe line along the road, but the house is 475 deep in the property, so I would be billed for nearly all of the cost of getting a supply line to the house. The property is heavily wooded and rocky in this area so it would be a major time consuming project.

What about going with propane instead? This would allow me to switch to a gas fired cooktop instead of the electric that I'm currently using. The same would go for the dryer when it needs to be replaced. And given the area and the power interruptions I could get a stand by generator.

Can anyone share their opinions and experience with using propane for these purposes?

 

[mike93lx]

I would get a quote for the gas installation before going too deep on propane. That tank won't be free and nat gas is cheaper

 

[brewchief]

Get solid pricing from the gas supplier first, here they will spread the cost out over time.

If you do decide to go with LP plan everything as if you were doing natural gas, size gas lines for natural, bring the propane regulator out where the gas meter would go, etc.

Last time I ran the numbers oil and propane were pretty close in cost and both around twice what natural gas was.

Most gas appliances are convertible from natural to LP with the exception of most water heaters and some gas fireplaces.

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[TommyK]

The difference in operational cost between oil and propane is significant where I live. Of course the equipment cost is much less for propane. IMO if you value comfort and operating cost over initial investment stick with the oil over propane. I think it will help resale value as well.

 

[Showkey]

Last time I ran the numbers oil and propane were pretty close in cost and both around twice what natural gas was.

Most gas appliances are convertible from natural to LP with the exception of most water heaters and some gas fireplaces.

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Nat Gas being 1/2 the price of propane or oil is about right.
You have to run the numbers for your location as it varies slightly.

Here’s link to another thread on propane to Nat gas conversion costs and savings:

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=424222

There are multiple internet sites with energy calculators for comparison and payback.

Home Resale value increase and consistent pricing of Nat gas are a huge plus.

 

[99LeCouch]

How are your electricity rates and winter temperatures? Would mini splits be viable for heating and cooling? If you have a basement, a heat pump hot water heater could do domestic hot water. Just a wild idea that would still ditch oil.

 

[mike93lx]

Cost aside, the biggest benefit to me moving from oil to nat gas is how much quieter my furnace is. Unbelievable difference.

 

[Kaizen]

I would kill for nat gas at my house. Might be upfront cost but so worth it with every month. Look at water heater like amtrol running as it’s own loop. Saves 50 percent by my estimated over electric. Gas would be even cheaper.
As said unless you are in cold temp zone check out new minisplit units. Spec the numbers out over ten years to look at cost. Oil is very unpredictable imo. A tanker gets bombed in the Far East and my price goes up the next day.


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[SALIV8]

I have propane at our cabin and love it. I have natural gas at our home.

Propane is more expensive than the nat gas but I don't think it's very bad. I'm right at $1.749 p/ gallon this season as it does fluctuate a bit each year.

I prepay with my preferred supplier and also keep a credit with them. I'm on the auto refill service with them as well so I don't even think about tank levels as they keep it filled and track usage. It's a free service also.

I can't comment on oil, I've never had it.

I have no idea but I feel like oil is dirty and requires lots of maintenance/cleaning

 

[Showkey]

I have propane at our cabin and love it. I have natural gas at our home.

Propane is more expensive than the nat gas but I don't think it's very bad. I'm right at $1.749 p/ gallon this season as it does fluctuate a bit each year.

I prepay with my preferred supplier and also keep a credit with them. I'm on the auto refill service with them as well so I don't even think about tank levels as they keep it filled and track usage. It's a free service also.

I can't comment on oil, I've never had it.

I have no idea but I feel like oil is dirty and requires lots of maintenance/cleaning

The last comparison thread showed about $1500 per year saving with Nat gas over propane. ( Michigan)

 

[Jackfre]

Talk to the gas company and get a quote for the install. See how much it would cost if you have an excavator come in and do the digging. You have to co-ordiante the two, but there may be savings there. If you can get the hole dug, it is a worthwhile conversion. You could go propane initially and convert the new boiler to NG later. If you go propane buy the tank and get as large as you can. Where you get killed with propane and oil too, is when the gas company owns the tank and you end up getting deliveries every month through the season. You are then riding the market and it rarely works to your advantage. With a larger tank, you may only need to fill once/year and if you own the tank, you are dialing for dollars on every fill. How much oil are you burning per year?

 

[fitter30]

Geo thermal is the most efficient system by far $25- $30 k. There is a fed tax rebate 30% and might be a electric company rebate also. Natural gas btu content 100k per cubic foot, #2 oil 136900 per gallon, propane 91k. With these fuels have to also figger in efficiency of the furnace or boiler plus all taxes. Insulation,windows and doors might want to consider a upgrade because with a heat load calculation it might lower the size of equipment. Some electric companies will do a energy audit with a blower door test very reasonable. Blower door test tells how tight your house is.

 

[86turbodsl]

I have geothermal with a propane backup. I own my own 1000G tank and buy typically in the summer. I would just about kill for nat gas. I would probably abandon the geo if i could get it. It's WAY WAY cheaper than anything else right now. After 10 yrs of geo usage, i don't think geo is any better than nat gas.

 

[66HertzClone]

Thanks for the responses, I'll give the gas company a call and request an estimate, that's a great place to start. I've switch the heat off at all three thermostats, no need at the current temps in NJ for it to be on. I did notice during the night that I do hear the boiler fire up from time to time. I did not see a tank for hot water so I'm puzzled why the boiler would start without a call for heat or hot water.

I'll go back and pull up my oil usage, purchased the house at the tail end of November, but didn't move in till the end of January. Had carpeting pulled out and hardwood flooring put down in the three bedrooms and hallway then had those sanded, stained and varnished and the rest of the hardwood refinished.

 

[TractorJeff]

It maybe keeping the "Hot Water" ready in case someone calls for it?
My Gas Hot Water tank turns on at night when its cold outside.

 

[brewchief]

If the boiler doesn't use an indirect tank to make domestic hot water it must use a coil right inside the boiler, the boiler then needs to be set up to maintain temperature all the time.

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[Bretny]

Switching from one fossil fuel to another isnt really going to save you a whole heck of alot. Personaly if i didnt burn wood a heat pump would be my choice.

If your just doing it to save money have you looked into a pellet stove?

 

[zak77]

I'm kinda in the same boat with my oil fired boiler that needs to run to keep a minimum temp even in the summer. I've shut it down on the past for several months on end but i notice the gasket for the domestic hot water coil, which had been abandoned for a hybrid hot water heater, will leak when it's shut down. I asked my oil tech if there is a "cold-start" boiler and he didnt know of any off his head, which i'm sure they're out there. I'd prefer a cold-start furnace or boiler ran off propane or NG that way you dont have to be concerned with bad fuel from it sitting, or rust and sludge forming in the tank from sitting either.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

I think you are doing the right thing by getting with the gas company.

You can talk to a realtor for their input, but I feel like having natural gas will add value to your home on the back end vs propane or fuel oil as well. So, even if it costs you something up front to get the gas line, that will be $ in your pocket when you sell.

We do a lot of natural gas conversions from propane and many cite the fact they don't have to worry about propane delivery ahead of the cost as their biggest reason to switch. Now, a lot of these are commercial sized loads, so the fact they may run out of propane (when they use a LOT of it) may be a bigger deal than it would be for a private individual....but with propane you do have to worry about how to get the transport truck into a spot where they can refill your tank and snow and ice may make that impossible at some points. With natural gas...you just don't have that worry.

Good luck with the gas company.

Phil

 

[mrvm]

Nothing but bad memories for oil expenses over the winter as the heating bills ran close to $500 to 700 bucks a month depending on the volatile market oil prices. Go NG and don't look back.

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

If you're staying there for a while, get natural gas.

 

[Scotto]

I bought my home 3 years ago and it had 2 zones - one was propane and the other was oil forced hot air. Within a year I had NG ran to the house, piped the house and converted the propane furnace to NG. You will pay a good amount more in propane then oil (at least that was my experience).
Last winter I pulled out my oil furnace and put in a NG furnace. I sold the furnace, oil tank, and chimney (high-eff can use PVC) for the same amount I was able to buy the high-efficient NG furnace (self installed).
Go for the NG if you can! Down here South Jersey Gas will run it to your house for free as long as you hook up within 2-3 months. Literally cost me nothing and I'm about 150 ft from the street. I know it's pretty rocky where you are but I would imagine they wouldn't charge you too much because they want you to be a user.
If NG isn't financially viable maybe just get a smaller propane tank just for your dryer and stove. I def wouldn't recommend for your boiler though - no upgrade there.

 

[bugnut]

Just look at the payback, for switching to a ng furnace from oil. And if the neighborhood has ng the oil prices will come down as folks go to ng.

I couldn't make the numbers work to replace my 2002 vintage carrier fuel oil.

Oil cost last winter for ~1800 sq ft was less than 150/month during the heating season. Assume a 5k furnance and installation, it's a long time to break even.

my .02 worth, ps just put ng heater in the barn.....

 

[fitter30]

Zac77
https://www.bosch-climate.us/produc...boilers/residential-boilers/oil-conventional/



Have to look at high efficiency oiled or gas fired boilers for low temp start up. Difference is a stainless verses cast iron. Cast can't take the rapid expansion.

 

[yeldogt]

If the OP goes to gas -- look into the NJ clean energy program --- great program. It was Up to 10k 10y 0 percent loan and 5k in direct rebates. When I moved back to property I own in NJ and did a lot of upgrades -- one of the units was basically free as going with a supper high efficiency unit saves me the cost of the 10 year note every month.

Since he needs a new boiler -- now is the time to do it. Also -- switch to an indirect water heater.

 

[66HertzClone]

Bringing this back up again, the divorce is over and settlement is complete, I should get the settlement before the month ends. I contacted the natural gas company and they came out this morning view the property.

They will run up to 170' of pipe without additional charges, with my 468' set back I'll need another 300' roughly. He said they use a bullet to run the pipe which would greatly speed up the process as it is very heavily overgrown in the front yard, using a backhoe or a ditch witch like thing would be a nightmare. He said that each additional foot is $25, so the remainder would run me $7500.

The current boiler is the original to the house so it is over 40 years old, it's leaking and I've been told if they had to open it up it's all but certain the parts would break in the process and likely be difficult to secure replacements for. The boiler is also the hot water supply for the house. The rebates I looked at so far include one of $950 when swapping to a gas fired combo unit. I'll keep looking as there may be more available.

Does anybody have an idea of the savings I might see when doing this change? I was spending nearly $500 a month on oil during the past winter, I'm not home during the day so I had set the thermostats to drop the temp while I am not home. The question I need to answer is will I save enough on a monthly basis with the upgrade in efficiency over the 40 year old oil boiler and reduced fuel expenses to justify the $7500 cost of running the pipe.
Gas is more efficient and less expensive, add in the rebates and how having gas will be a help at the time I would be selling, not planned as I have no wish to retire elsewhere.

 

[Doug Arthurs]

If at all possible go Natural Gas. I have been on propane and it was expensive even compared to oil.

 

[Jackfre]

Bite the bullet and do the NG. Oil is great heat, but you ride the market with a 275 gal tank. We haven't seen big disruptions in oil for a while, but they do happen. In my previous post I suggested buying a large LP tank. That is still good advice, in the last 18 mos. big propane tanks have almost doubled in cost. I would say you will save at least half of your current oil bill and you will have fewer service calls on NG equipment, if it is properly set up on installation.

 

[mike93lx]

I went from 3k/year with a relatively new burner on a 60's oil furnace to 1200/year on a 3 year old vitodens gas. Both are heat (hrdronic) and hot water with holding tanks. Both are 3 bed ranch houses

It's also way quieter than oil

 

[66HertzClone]

yes, I have a three zone system, the bedrooms and full baths are one, the living room, dining room, family room, kitchen, 1/2 bath, and laundry room are another, there is a solarium in the basement that has it's own zone. I did not even turn it on last winter, the house if 1940 square feet. Being quieter will be a plus, the boiler is directly under the master bedroom it wakes me up every time it kicks on now.

 

[yeldogt]

Bite the bullet and do the NG. Oil is great heat, but you ride the market with a 275 gal tank. We haven't seen big disruptions in oil for a while, but they do happen. In my previous post I suggested buying a large LP tank. That is still good advice, in the last 18 mos. big propane tanks have almost doubled in cost. I would say you will save at least half of your current oil bill and you will have fewer service calls on NG equipment, if it is properly set up on installation.

Why have tanks gone up?

 

[yeldogt]

Bringing this back up again, the divorce is over and settlement is complete, I should get the settlement before the month ends. I contacted the natural gas company and they came out this morning view the property.

They will run up to 170' of pipe without additional charges, with my 468' set back I'll need another 300' roughly. He said they use a bullet to run the pipe which would greatly speed up the process as it is very heavily overgrown in the front yard, using a backhoe or a ditch witch like thing would be a nightmare. He said that each additional foot is $25, so the remainder would run me $7500.

The current boiler is the original to the house so it is over 40 years old, it's leaking and I've been told if they had to open it up it's all but certain the parts would break in the process and likely be difficult to secure replacements for. The boiler is also the hot water supply for the house. The rebates I looked at so far include one of $950 when swapping to a gas fired combo unit. I'll keep looking as there may be more available.

Does anybody have an idea of the savings I might see when doing this change? I was spending nearly $500 a month on oil during the past winter, I'm not home during the day so I had set the thermostats to drop the temp while I am not home. The question I need to answer is will I save enough on a monthly basis with the upgrade in efficiency over the 40 year old oil boiler and reduced fuel expenses to justify the $7500 cost of running the pipe.
Gas is more efficient and less expensive, add in the rebates and how having gas will be a help at the time I would be selling, not planned as I have no wish to retire elsewhere.

If you plan on being there a long time -- NG is great. It's cheap and you will not have the yearly service with oil. Some people don't service -- and they lose in efficiency and have problems.

If you have high heat emitters -- copper baseboard or any type of cast iron You will have to decide what type of boiler. Get an indirect hot water heater.

I did my big place in Chestnut Hill PA a few years back -- replaced the old oil boilers with two Buderus traditional cast iron NG boilers and Buderus SS indirect.

Could have moved up to one of the small high efficiency wall hung boilers -- but they need cold return temps to achieve 95%. With all high temp cast iron radiators I was never going to get the efficiencies stated. Also, the traditional cast iron boilers are much cheaper and never need anything ... last forever. The low mass wall hung boilers are marvels ... but they work better with panel radiators and radiant. Switching from oil was easy -- all I had to do was have SS liners installed in the chimneys -- the new boilers did not even need much pipe.

One cool thing -- The new boilers had outdoor reset capabilities. So the controls changed a bit -- I made a primary zone on each boiler. And the other zones just worked off the first

 

[Jackfre]

Why have tanks gone up?

Perhaps it is regional but steel prices went up almost 40% with the intro of tariffs. They have settled somewhat but still substantially higher. Also, PG&E now has the ability to turn off your power for up to 5 days to prevent fires. Large undergrounds are pricey and hard to get here due to high demand as folks are installing generators.

I agree with you on the Cast iron buderus'. I had one in my MA home and it was excellent and trouble free. Service is much less than with the hi-eff wall hung as well. With hot water baseboard the CI is a good way to go. I'd still go tankless over an indirect.

 

[yeldogt]

Perhaps it is regional but steel prices went up almost 40% with the intro of tariffs. They have settled somewhat but still substantially higher. Also, PG&E now has the ability to turn off your power for up to 5 days to prevent fires. Large undergrounds are pricey and hard to get here due to high demand as folks are installing generators.

I agree with you on the Cast iron buderus'. I had one in my MA home and it was excellent and trouble free. Service is much less than with the hi-eff wall hung as well. With hot water baseboard the CI is a good way to go. I'd still go tankless over an indirect.

Interesting on the tanks.

The old Buderus boilers were the best IMO -- was able to snag two of the plain old atmospheric before they moved to induced. The basement is stone foundation -- all the standby heat was needed.

Seems all the people going with wall boilers on these old houses have problems in a couple of years. And ... the savings just are not there --- what's 10% ... especially when you factor in the added cost of the boiler and piping changes needed. I was at 10k + difference for the two units over the CI boilers.

 

[mike93lx]

Another option would be a heat pump. In NJ you could probably heat year round with one

 

[MFolks]

Most if not all backup home generators will run off Nat. gas or propane,if it were me,I'd go for the gas company,call for advice.

 

[Niteman9]

The last comparison thread showed about $1500 per year saving with Nat gas over propane. ( Michigan)

Guess I'm doing something right. I have propane and don't spend $1500 a year on propane. I'm in Michigan. I've been in the house 2 1/2 years filled the 500 gal tank 5 times. And it's still at 79% from my last fill up. So 4 tanks so far. I've paid as low as $1.00 a gallon but never more than $1.40 a gallon. And last winter I kept my 30x40 polebarn @ 40 deg all winter. Occassionally warming it up to 60 to work in it.

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[mike93lx]

Guess I'm doing something right. I have propane and don't spend $1500 a year on propane. I'm in Michigan. I've been in the house 2 1/2 years filled the 500 gal tank 5 times. And it's still at 79% from my last fill up. So 4 tanks so far. I've paid as low as $1.00 a gallon but never more than $1.40 a gallon. And last winter I kept my 30x40 polebarn @ 40 deg all winter. Occassionally warming it up to 60 to work in it.

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Not a fair comparison. No one keeps their house at 40 degrees in the winter

 

[Showkey]

Guess I'm doing something right. I have propane and don't spend $1500 a year on propane. I'm in Michigan. I've been in the house 2 1/2 years filled the 500 gal tank 5 times. And it's still at 79% from my last fill up. So 4 tanks so far. I've paid as low as $1.00 a gallon but never more than $1.40 a gallon. And last winter I kept my 30x40 polebarn @ 40 deg all winter. Occassionally warming it up to 60 to work in it.

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The point is NG is about 1/2 the price of propane in many regions.
$1500 saving was a comparison calculation using specific costs of a specific case in another post. Example the propane cost was $4000 switch to NG and the cost was $2500 for the same building. Or like the example below 1000 gallons at $1.40 estimated saving $800.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

I'd never leave oil for LPG, but I would swap it out for Natgas in a heartbeat.

Tommy