Cutting power to old breaker box

[pancho400cid]

My house has an old breaker box. I believe the issues I'm trying to fix stem from a bad breaker.

There is no main disconnect switch. It appears to me that to cut all the power, you would have to pull the meter - which has a tag thingy that would indicate tampering on it. That presumably has to be done by a licensed electrician or the power provider - Am I right? Is there another way to kill the incoming power?

Thanks!

 

[sberry]

Show pic.

 

[dw1]

My house has an old breaker box. I believe the issues I'm trying to fix stem from a bad breaker.

There is no main disconnect switch. It appears to me that to cut all the power, you would have to pull the meter - which has a tag thingy that would indicate tampering on it. That presumably has to be done by a licensed electrician or the power provider - Am I right? Is there another way to kill the incoming power?

Thanks![/QUOTE

You are correct, but, you could have a split bus panel to where one of the installed breakers controls the bottom half of your panel, can you post a pic of your panel.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

If u want to replace the panel, the only way to do so is have PoCo disconnect power.

 

[bczygan]

If u want to replace the panel, the only way to do so is have PoCo disconnect power.

Really?

I've clipped it and pulled the meter after shutting off all loads. When they came out and installed a radio read meter, they said no big deal and installed another.

The new electronic meters are a different deal, as they get instant notification and send out a crew to repair, and you get charged. So you need to call and let them know you are going to do it:

Do I need to notify DTE if I'm having home renovations or service upgrade work done that requires my electrician to temporarily interrupt electric metering?
Yes. Please call 800.477.4747 at least one day before you begin any renovations or service upgrade work that could include disruption of electric metering. Otherwise, the meter will send us an outage notification and we may unnecessarily dispatch a crew to your location.

Bill

 

[pancho400cid]

Guys -

I can't post a pic for a while... If you google "cluster F&%K" you might stumble across one (kidding).

House was built in the 50's and the box is a Federal Pacific... I know ... I know.....

I was looking it over in the dark. Will be more observant in the daylight tomorrow. There is a top row of breakers and a bottom row, with neutral bus on the RH side of the box. The questionable breaker is on the bottom row. The red feeder is hooked to the LH side of the breaker bus, and the black feeder is hooked to the RH side. I believe the upper row is fed off one live leg (red feeder cable), and the other row is fed by the other live leg (black feeder cable).

If I understand dw1's comment, I "may" be able to kill the lower bus by turning off all the breakers on the upper row?

 

[Richard Cranium]

I don't think so. Both are live.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

What is it that youre trying to do?

I wouldnt do anything til youre sure especially with an FPE.

 

[sberry]

If its one breaker does the rest need to be shut down?

 

[mm08822]

Not really sure what you are trying to do – replace the panel only with a same ampacity non-fpe main breaker panel or actually increase the service size? And for sure, pics inside and out give lots of detail to help you - otherwise it is internet guesswork.

What size (amps) is the current service? How many cb’s? What is the plan for your new panel going to be?
You would need to at least pull the meter under no-load and preferably replace the cable from meter to panel – assuming your meter is physically separate from the main disconnect. (not the case in many CA. services.) Pulling the meter may be way beyond your safety skills/PPE. Most go uneventful, but bad times can easily happen if pulling the meter breaks the meter jaw isolators.
If the drop into the meter is all dry-rotted, then you are into a new cable from the weatherhead and a new meter pan. For sure at this point upgrading everything is the smartest thing to do. Now you are looking at cutting off the lateral at the weatherhead and reconnecting it hot back onto the lateral.
I have drilled my share of meter pan locks and/or cut seals b/c I refuse to be delayed by the POCO showing up late in the am (if they show) and coming back early PM to reconnect and having to pay for that self-serving service. As long as there is no need for a meter survey or obvious need to relocate the service drop, it works out fine. POCO meter reader just throws a new seal on at next meter read.

 

[Wirepuller]

Shut down the loads cut the tag and pull the meter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[pancho400cid]

Sorry if I wasn't clear.... I am trying to AVOID having this repair snowball into a service replacement/upgrade.

I just need to replace one breaker (15 or 20 amp, single pole). I just was hoping there was a way to cut the power while I was doing it, without pulling the meter and getting the poco involved.

Is it OK to replace the breaker with the buss to it hot? I am not an electrician (obviously) but I have reasonable knowledge/experience with it. I assume if you turn off all the stuff on the circuit in question and put the breaker in the open position, you could pull the old and then install the new (also open) without fireworks - correct? Then turn everything back on?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Sorry if I wasn't clear.... I am trying to AVOID having this repair snowball into a service replacement/upgrade.

I just need to replace one breaker (15 or 20 amp, single pole). I just was hoping there was a way to cut the power while I was doing it, without pulling the meter and getting the poco involved.

Is it OK to replace the breaker with the buss to it hot? I am not an electrician (obviously) but I have reasonable knowledge/experience with it. I assume if you turn off all the stuff on the circuit in question and put the breaker in the open position, you could pull the old and then install the new (also open) without fireworks - correct? Then turn everything back on?

Yes u can replace a breaker without turning off the power to the buss bars. Its done every day.

However, this is an FPE panel. What brand and model of replacement breaker are you using and why are you replacing it?

If the current one is melted to the bus bar, then thats a no go.

U really should replace this panel.

Please do post pics.

 

[pancho400cid]

The house in question is actually our old house - now a rent house. The breaker in question seems to work, but does not seem to fit right in the box. It's kind of loose, like it does not hook right on the back or something. Took off from work to go over there this AM to look into it more.

I see that Homey Depot sells a replacement breaker for FPE... so might take one with me... very expensive....

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Federal-Pacific-StabLok-Thin-20-Amp-1-2-in-Single-Pole-Type-F-UBI-Replacement-Circuit-Breaker-VPKUBIF020N/100029382

 

[dw1]

Be careful, I have had FPE breakers actually fall out of the panel when I took the panel cover off and on the other hand, I replaced one back in the fall, none of the breakers would come out from the bus, I beat on one til it broke and then tossed the panel with the others that I have accumulating. If you need replacement breakers, they are getting pricey. I can send you a couple if you need them, but...... all I can say is that they were energized when I replaced them, no warranty/liability on this end!! Kidding aside, look for a 50/60 amp breaker in your top half of the panel, it controls the bottom half, look at your panel sticker, as said in my above post, I bet you have a split bus panel, they were very popular back then, I have replaced many. Be careful. I can send you any FPE breaker you need.

 

[dw1]

The house in question is actually our old house - now a rent house. The breaker in question seems to work, but does not seem to fit right in the box. It's kind of loose, like it does not hook right on the back or something. Took off from work to go over there this AM to look into it more.

I see that Homey Depot sells a replacement breaker for FPE... so might take one with me... very expensive....

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Federal-Pacific-StabLok-Thin-20-Amp-1-2-in-Single-Pole-Type-F-UBI-Replacement-Circuit-Breaker-VPKUBIF020N/100029382

Sorry, but if its a "Rental House" and "FPE" I wouldn't touch it, tell your landlord, what happens if it burns down? you are going to be the last one that touched it?

 

[dw1]

PS, FPE has half breakers (Like in your HD link) and they have full size 1" S/P breakers, I pic of the culprit sure would help??

 

[pancho400cid]

Thanks! I am the landlord unfortunately......

 

[dw1]

Thanks! I am the landlord unfortunately......

I hear ya!! I actually have a rental with a Zinsco panel in it. I can send you breakers if you want, PM me your address.

 

[CoogarXR]

I know in my area of Ohio, I just call Ohio Edison and tell them I am having the breaker box repaired and need the "meter resealed". They just send a guy out with a new "tag thingy" and all is well.

You don't want to cut it without calling them, they might think you are trying to cheat the meter.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Since youre the landlord u should be even more careful.

If theres a fire and the tenant "discovers" that its an FPE panel with problems u could be in for a real world of legal trouble.

 

[sberry]

Does he have a legal insurance policy? The feds are still in service by the millions under insurance, I never heard of a legitimate lawsuit against an owner for having one. Never even heard of one on the internet.

 

[rburke65]

You can remove a breaker, unscrew the wire, attach the wire to the new breaker, insert new breaker into the panel, reattach the panel cover. Maybe a 5 minute job. YouTube?

 

[pancho400cid]

Hey all:

Executive Summary: It's fixed

I went over, found that the suspect breaker was loose in the box as said, but it was powering a few things on the circuit. I figured the issue of lights, etc. not working in some rooms was a junction somewhere. Tore into some outlets, light fixtures etc. looking for loose wire nuts, terminal screws etc.

Climbed into the attic and found a gaggle of wires including one ALUMINUM 12/2 tied into the same wire nuts with Copper wires. I decided to replace the aluminum. Long story short... it was running to an unused light fixture up in the attic doing nothing.... like to slap whoever did that. Took the alum. 12/2 out of the two wire nuts (1 hot, 1 neut.), cleaned the wires and replaced it all with new wire nuts. Everything worked as it should then.

Then went to home depot and bought a new 15 Amp single pole, 1/2" wide breaker compatible with FPE. Wired it up and she snapped right in nice and tight, unlike the one I replaced. I swapped the breaker without pulling the meter.

I think we are OK for now. Really appreciate the input!

 

[bczygan]

Hey all:

Executive Summary: It's fixed

I went over, found that the suspect breaker was loose in the box as said, but it was powering a few things on the circuit. I figured the issue of lights, etc. not working in some rooms was a junction somewhere. Tore into some outlets, light fixtures etc. looking for loose wire nuts, terminal screws etc.

Climbed into the attic and found a gaggle of wires including one ALUMINUM 12/2 tied into the same wire nuts with Copper wires. I decided to replace the aluminum. Long story short... it was running to an unused light fixture up in the attic doing nothing.... like to slap whoever did that. Took the alum. 12/2 out of the two wire nuts (1 hot, 1 neut.), cleaned the wires and replaced it all with new wire nuts. Everything worked as it should then.

Then went to home depot and bought a new 15 Amp single pole, 1/2" wide breaker compatible with FPE. Wired it up and she snapped right in nice and tight, unlike the one I replaced. I swapped the breaker without pulling the meter.

I think we are OK for now. Really appreciate the input!

I think there is some kind of merit badge for bravery, for what you've done.

I always call up and ask them to shut down FermiII when I work in my electric.

Bill

 

[dw1]

I snapped a pic of a FPE split bus panel and a pic of a full size and half S/P breakers for reference. The 50 amp with wires coming off of it, feeds the bottom half of the panel, this satisfies the 6 switch rule to turn the panel off.

PS, if you could have waited, I would have mailed you a breaker for free, no big deal, glad you have it fixed, good job!!

 

[pancho400cid]

I would have mailed you a breaker for free

Really appreciate the offer... that one breaker was Fifty Bucks! I had to fix it ASAP as the renters were without lights in two bedrooms.

Replacing that whole box etc is on the to do list.... I'll pay a real electrician to do that.

 

[dw1]

Really appreciate the offer... that one breaker was Fifty Bucks! I had to fix it ASAP as the renters were without lights in two bedrooms.

Replacing that whole box etc is on the to do list.... I'll pay a real electrician to do that.

I was out and needed a FPE breaker, there is one supply house in town that carries them, so I stopped in there and asked for one, his reply was "you want new or used" mine was "whats the difference" about $40, I went across town to my barn and got one out of my stash. I cant believe they can sell used breakers period!!
$50 for a POS breaker is robbery IMO, but I guess supply and demand.
I have thrown a ton of these away over the years.

 

[sberry]

Anyone ever have a main just quit in one of these? It seems I had one and a while back sold a 100 to a guy had the same problem. My neighbor has one, seems it might have been a Zinsco or something like that.
Never heard of one happening SqD or CH but the thing just quit.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Anyone ever have a main just quit in one of these? It seems I had one and a while back sold a 100 to a guy had the same problem. My neighbor has one, seems it might have been a Zinsco or something like that.
Never heard of one happening SqD or CH but the thing just quit.

yes Ive seen burned out FPE, Zinsco/sylvania, and Challenger(newer non zinsco style) main breakers.

I have never seen a burned out Sq D, CH, Siemens or GE but Im sure there have been some.

 

[itsunclebill]

Don't know about your part of the world, but in mine it is illegal to do electrical work on a house you don't own AND live in. And the questions you asked make it pretty evident you don't have any business doing what you're doing. Of something happens you will be liable for any injuries and property damage. This in addition to any penalties from the gubbamint folks.

Best advice is any time anything is an issue in a FPE panel get a pro to replace it. It is 40 to 50 years old anyway.

 

[sberry]

Good plan,,,, leave a faulty installation alone. Its not illegal to fix it and you are required to fix a hazard.