hldtyt
Well-known member
Can someone advise what the differences are between the two? Which one is better and why? Also, what is Liquidtile 1184, a Cycloaliphatic epoxy or Aliphatic epoxy?
Cycloaliphatic epoxy vs Aliphatic epoxy
- Thread starter hldtyt
- Start date
TheBanker
Well-known member
oh good luck with this one.
ixlr8
Well-known member
From the Wolvorine Coatings Data sheet:
LiquaTile 1184V is a 100% solids, amine-cured self
leveling epoxy floor coating which exhibits excellent
resistance to organic solvents, caustic environments,
and dilute acidic exposures while also displaying
outstanding mechanical properties, such as adhesion
and abrasion resistance.
Whatever an amine-cured epoxy is.
They also list this;
BondTite 1101 is a 100% solids, two-component AHC (Advanced Hybrid Cycloaliphatic) epoxy primer which exhibits excellent adhesion and sealing properties on steel or concrete.
So my guess is that the LiquaTile 1184 is neither Cycloaliphatic or Aliphatic.
LiquaTile 1184V is a 100% solids, amine-cured self
leveling epoxy floor coating which exhibits excellent
resistance to organic solvents, caustic environments,
and dilute acidic exposures while also displaying
outstanding mechanical properties, such as adhesion
and abrasion resistance.
Whatever an amine-cured epoxy is.
They also list this;
BondTite 1101 is a 100% solids, two-component AHC (Advanced Hybrid Cycloaliphatic) epoxy primer which exhibits excellent adhesion and sealing properties on steel or concrete.
So my guess is that the LiquaTile 1184 is neither Cycloaliphatic or Aliphatic.
The reson I ask is in this http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58639&showall=1 post, Gabeancounter said he paid $450 for a bulk no tool purchase. That was for 15 gallons. From what I know thats a smokin deal. I was curious as to why it was soooooo much cheaper than the Wolverine I purchased. My bill was significantly higher.
I love my floor. My kids and I beat the hell out of it and its looks good as new. I run a lawn service, run drag radials on my toy and have two kids with bikes, and go-karts etc..... The floor has done as promised but the price has ran several friends off from doing their floors.
So I checked out the website Gabeancounter posted http://www.performanceepoxy.com/ and it sounds great, but I figured there was a catch. (DISCLAIMER I have no knowledge of this paticular epoxy) So please dont think I am bashing as I am not. Just curious as to why its such a good deal. I figured it had something to do with it being Aliphatic epoxy.
This company sells the Cycloaliphatic epoxy and they brag about how good it is vs. others. http://epoxy-coat.com/why_use_epoxycoat.php
Just curious!
I wish they had a clear for sale.
I love my floor. My kids and I beat the hell out of it and its looks good as new. I run a lawn service, run drag radials on my toy and have two kids with bikes, and go-karts etc..... The floor has done as promised but the price has ran several friends off from doing their floors.
So I checked out the website Gabeancounter posted http://www.performanceepoxy.com/ and it sounds great, but I figured there was a catch. (DISCLAIMER I have no knowledge of this paticular epoxy) So please dont think I am bashing as I am not. Just curious as to why its such a good deal. I figured it had something to do with it being Aliphatic epoxy.
This company sells the Cycloaliphatic epoxy and they brag about how good it is vs. others. http://epoxy-coat.com/why_use_epoxycoat.php
Just curious!
I wish they had a clear for sale.
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I found this. Explains alot of it but I wonder just how big the quality differance is?
"The cycloaliphatic structure refers to a six-member carbon-atom ring in the backbone of the curing agent instead of carbon-carbon linkages between amines in some other curing agents such as West or Sys. 3. The cycloaliphatic curing agents have the amine groups connected to the rings. Both use Diglycidyl ether of Bisphenol-A as the major component of the epoxide curing agent, and both contain benzyl alcohol, a volatile plasticizer which acts as a molecular lubricant and facilitates curing [although systems with cycloaliphatic curing agents contain much more, typically 20-30%, as they simply do not cure more than about half-way at room temperature without it.]
While the cycloaliphatic ring is resistant somewhat to Uv degradation, more that the carbon-carbon linkages between amines in some other types of curing agents, both contain the aromatic ring structure of diglycidyl ether of Bisphenol-A, which breaks down fairly readily on UV exposure, and both contain amines; these give both molecular breakdown and yellowing all by themselves.
None of these structures should be considered UV-stable, even though the cycloaliphatic structures are better than the aliphatic amine-structures in that regard."
"The cycloaliphatic structure refers to a six-member carbon-atom ring in the backbone of the curing agent instead of carbon-carbon linkages between amines in some other curing agents such as West or Sys. 3. The cycloaliphatic curing agents have the amine groups connected to the rings. Both use Diglycidyl ether of Bisphenol-A as the major component of the epoxide curing agent, and both contain benzyl alcohol, a volatile plasticizer which acts as a molecular lubricant and facilitates curing [although systems with cycloaliphatic curing agents contain much more, typically 20-30%, as they simply do not cure more than about half-way at room temperature without it.]
While the cycloaliphatic ring is resistant somewhat to Uv degradation, more that the carbon-carbon linkages between amines in some other types of curing agents, both contain the aromatic ring structure of diglycidyl ether of Bisphenol-A, which breaks down fairly readily on UV exposure, and both contain amines; these give both molecular breakdown and yellowing all by themselves.
None of these structures should be considered UV-stable, even though the cycloaliphatic structures are better than the aliphatic amine-structures in that regard."
TheBanker
Well-known member
Just some basic information without getting into the science. Epoxy-coat and performance epoxy are the same product. While we have been shopping here for epoxy it is learned that epoxy-coat is less expensive that wolvierene but that it may be a bit thinner on mils. A couple of us decided that we would rather spend fewer dollars for a bit less quality. If I had an open budget to do whatever, I would do the wolveriene. But I do think the epoxy-coat is an excellent product and probably the least expensive 100% solids. I hope that helps some??
ixlr8
Well-known member
TheBanker- I don't think they are the same.
I was wondering the same.. why the price difference. I asked Rugerlady, from epoxycoat/performance coat, what the differences were between their two epoxies. Here is her response;
Sorry for the delay in responding, busy day! The difference is that the Epoxy-Coat is cycloaliphatic, the Performance Epoxy is aliphatic. It is not as chemicaly resistant or durable. It does however still come with a lifetime warranty. It is a very good product, just not the best product (Epoxy-Coat). If you want to look at the differences on the websites data sheets, you can go to epoxy-coat.com and performanceepoxy.com. Let me know if you have any other questions. Christine
I checked their website and I could only find the data sheet for the Epoxy-Coat. If you click on the data sheet for Performance Epoxy... it is linked to the Epoxy-Coat data sheet. I am not sure if it is a web site error or if they are the same. I have sent her a PM asking about this.. I will update when I get a reply.
I was wondering the same.. why the price difference. I asked Rugerlady, from epoxycoat/performance coat, what the differences were between their two epoxies. Here is her response;
Sorry for the delay in responding, busy day! The difference is that the Epoxy-Coat is cycloaliphatic, the Performance Epoxy is aliphatic. It is not as chemicaly resistant or durable. It does however still come with a lifetime warranty. It is a very good product, just not the best product (Epoxy-Coat). If you want to look at the differences on the websites data sheets, you can go to epoxy-coat.com and performanceepoxy.com. Let me know if you have any other questions. Christine
I checked their website and I could only find the data sheet for the Epoxy-Coat. If you click on the data sheet for Performance Epoxy... it is linked to the Epoxy-Coat data sheet. I am not sure if it is a web site error or if they are the same. I have sent her a PM asking about this.. I will update when I get a reply.
TheBanker
Well-known member
Interesting....i never knew
gabeancounter
Well-known member
Yes, they are different as mentioned. Cyclo vs Al. My understanding is that the cyclo has a little better chemical resistance and UV resistance. How much? Not sure. All epoxies well yellow. The performance epoxy version has chemical resistance but not as much as the epoxy coat. At 2-3 times the cost for the same amount of material I choose to go the cheaper route. Many epoxies still use the old AL formula. I would say about a third of the websites I looked @ still used this formula.
I have checked all my websites and if you are on Performance epoxy's website they do have a different data sheet. Not sure if you were looking at a different link (All of our websites have links to each other). Let me know if you need further clarification on this.
WolverineCoatings
Well-known member
Hi All,
Sorry I'm late... We get extremely busy before holidays since the facilities that use our products have shut downs.
First, I'll start by saying that both the BondTite 1101 AND the LiquaTile 1184 are cycloaliphatic. However, they are much more than that (AHC).
I don't want to bore you guys with a bunch of chemistry. I know that what you really want to know is what does the difference mean to you. However, I will at least touch on the chemistry. The difference between aliphatic and cycloaliphatic is the shape of the molecule... linear versus cyclo (circle). Do NOT think benzene which is an aromatic ring. Aromatic rings like benzene will yellow like crazy. Aromatic type epoxies are generally known for chemical resistance to specific chemicals. Some of our chemical storage tank linings utilize aromatic chemistry. You don't want to pay for it and you don't want it on your garage floor.
Why do you care... cyclo vs standard aliphatic?
In general cycloaliphatic epoxy systems will have better UV stability than standard aliphatics... but not always. Both cycloaliphatics AND standard aliphatics each have their own strengths. One problem in generalizing is that there are TONS of different types of aliphatics. We have roughly 40-50 different aliphatic chemistries... IN STOCK. We have many more aliphatic formulations not in stock. Don't ask me to count... We have a LOT of formulations and products. The point is that whether you want cycloaliphatic or aliphatic depends on what is most important to you in a floor coating.
We have many aliphatic systems that would toast the cycloaliphatic systems. That is why we use upgraded cycloaliphatic chemistry (AHC).
Earlier I said that the BondTite 1101 and LiquaTile 1184 were much more. Here is why:
Both of these products are AHC (Advanced Hybrid Cycloaliphatic) systems. This type of chemistry combines the best of both worlds between specialty aliphatics (not standard) and specialty cycloaliphatics (not standards). So basically, AHC chemistry is about 2 steps beyond standard aliphatics and cycloaliphatics. The AHC chemistry also make it more user friendly. But, that is just the beginning. Don't forget that while standard coatings are filled with cheap stuff the LiquaTile 1184 is a semi-ceramic (as opposed to full ceramics that are not sold to the DIY market).
Now, what does all of that boil down to?
Flexibility: What you really want on your garage floor is a coating system that is as flexible as possible. The problem with that is that when coatings are flexibilized they generally become weak (like a rubber band). You want the flexibility to provide long term durability to the constant expansion and contraction of your concrete.
Hardness: The next thing that you really want is a coating that is as hard as possible. The problem with that is that when you make a coating really hard you typlically make it brittle (think glass). Obviously the harder the floor is the more it will withstand abrasion.
Chemical Resistance: You want the coating to withstand the chemicals you use.
Whew... this is getting long...
BondTite 1101 is an AHC chemistry. However, it is also fluoropolymer modified and chemically grafted to actually react with inorganic substrates... like concrete. Standard 100% solids epoxy chemistries simply fill the pores of your concrete and gets hard. BondTite 1101 does that too. However, BondTite 1101 also penetrates the concrete and then chemically reacts with it. So, you get the standard adhesion that comes from filling pores and the boosted adhesion from the reaction of the epoxy with the concrete. In general, a chemical bond is 10x a physical bond (like pore filling).
LiquaTile 1184 is also an AHC chemisty. It is also chemically flexibilized by adding long chain molecules that increase the flexibility without sacrificing the chemical resistance. Then, it is fortified with ceramic content to increase the surface hardness. Now, many companies sell products where ceramic microspheres are added into the coating... LiquaTile 1184 does NOT contain ceramic microspheres. I'm pointing this out because ceramic microspheres (which are hollow) are a cheap way to use the word ceramic in your coating while not really providing the added benefit of real ceramic. The LiquaTile 1184 contains real solid particle ceramics.
I could go on talking about this for a long time. But, it's getting late for me. The bottom line is that BondTite 1101 and LiquaTile 1184 are an awesome bang for the buck!
Sorry I'm late... We get extremely busy before holidays since the facilities that use our products have shut downs.
First, I'll start by saying that both the BondTite 1101 AND the LiquaTile 1184 are cycloaliphatic. However, they are much more than that (AHC).
I don't want to bore you guys with a bunch of chemistry. I know that what you really want to know is what does the difference mean to you. However, I will at least touch on the chemistry. The difference between aliphatic and cycloaliphatic is the shape of the molecule... linear versus cyclo (circle). Do NOT think benzene which is an aromatic ring. Aromatic rings like benzene will yellow like crazy. Aromatic type epoxies are generally known for chemical resistance to specific chemicals. Some of our chemical storage tank linings utilize aromatic chemistry. You don't want to pay for it and you don't want it on your garage floor.
Why do you care... cyclo vs standard aliphatic?
In general cycloaliphatic epoxy systems will have better UV stability than standard aliphatics... but not always. Both cycloaliphatics AND standard aliphatics each have their own strengths. One problem in generalizing is that there are TONS of different types of aliphatics. We have roughly 40-50 different aliphatic chemistries... IN STOCK. We have many more aliphatic formulations not in stock. Don't ask me to count... We have a LOT of formulations and products. The point is that whether you want cycloaliphatic or aliphatic depends on what is most important to you in a floor coating.
We have many aliphatic systems that would toast the cycloaliphatic systems. That is why we use upgraded cycloaliphatic chemistry (AHC).
Earlier I said that the BondTite 1101 and LiquaTile 1184 were much more. Here is why:
Both of these products are AHC (Advanced Hybrid Cycloaliphatic) systems. This type of chemistry combines the best of both worlds between specialty aliphatics (not standard) and specialty cycloaliphatics (not standards). So basically, AHC chemistry is about 2 steps beyond standard aliphatics and cycloaliphatics. The AHC chemistry also make it more user friendly. But, that is just the beginning. Don't forget that while standard coatings are filled with cheap stuff the LiquaTile 1184 is a semi-ceramic (as opposed to full ceramics that are not sold to the DIY market).
Now, what does all of that boil down to?
Flexibility: What you really want on your garage floor is a coating system that is as flexible as possible. The problem with that is that when coatings are flexibilized they generally become weak (like a rubber band). You want the flexibility to provide long term durability to the constant expansion and contraction of your concrete.
Hardness: The next thing that you really want is a coating that is as hard as possible. The problem with that is that when you make a coating really hard you typlically make it brittle (think glass). Obviously the harder the floor is the more it will withstand abrasion.
Chemical Resistance: You want the coating to withstand the chemicals you use.
Whew... this is getting long...
BondTite 1101 is an AHC chemistry. However, it is also fluoropolymer modified and chemically grafted to actually react with inorganic substrates... like concrete. Standard 100% solids epoxy chemistries simply fill the pores of your concrete and gets hard. BondTite 1101 does that too. However, BondTite 1101 also penetrates the concrete and then chemically reacts with it. So, you get the standard adhesion that comes from filling pores and the boosted adhesion from the reaction of the epoxy with the concrete. In general, a chemical bond is 10x a physical bond (like pore filling).
LiquaTile 1184 is also an AHC chemisty. It is also chemically flexibilized by adding long chain molecules that increase the flexibility without sacrificing the chemical resistance. Then, it is fortified with ceramic content to increase the surface hardness. Now, many companies sell products where ceramic microspheres are added into the coating... LiquaTile 1184 does NOT contain ceramic microspheres. I'm pointing this out because ceramic microspheres (which are hollow) are a cheap way to use the word ceramic in your coating while not really providing the added benefit of real ceramic. The LiquaTile 1184 contains real solid particle ceramics.
I could go on talking about this for a long time. But, it's getting late for me. The bottom line is that BondTite 1101 and LiquaTile 1184 are an awesome bang for the buck!
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TheBanker
Well-known member
When I first started to consider painting my garage floor I had no idea how many different type of products were involved. I have learned alot.