Daikin minisplit not cooling
- Thread starter scanchain
- Start date
He did not use the blue spray at all. On the outside unit, he claimed that if there is a leak while pressurized to 600 psi, you will hear it.
He did not attempt to take off the indoor air handlers to check those flare connections. Only the "listen" test.
I'm confused ..... when you switched to AC .... was it still heating?
Are the three heads all back to the outside unit or do you have a branch box?
Unless the thing never worked ... I would be surprised if the problem was a failed line. Typically they get damaged when the drywall goes in ... lines can fail -- but not normally in a year.
My guess is a flare failed to hold .... IMO this is the main problem with a mini in the USA. The flare. In much of the world they are all surfaced mounted and the lines exposed ... or mostly exposed. We in the USA like our equipment hidden -- when anything happens -- it's a big deal. I'm in this camp as well ... I hide mine ...but, I make sure that we can get to the fittings some how without ripping too much apart.
Any one of the joints can be the problem ... since there really is no high low on the lines to the heads with the direct piping .. I'm not sure what he was checking.
So the guy never used a tester to test for refrigerant ? You fill the unit and test for the presence of refrigerant .... while also looking for any leaks. I have heard of guys .. just redoing all the flares.
It's sad .... these things just run for years ... especially the quality units. It's the leaks that cause the problems ... I have been lucky and have never had one leak. Naturally the multi head have more places to do the system in.
Are the three heads all back to the outside unit or do you have a branch box?
Unless the thing never worked ... I would be surprised if the problem was a failed line. Typically they get damaged when the drywall goes in ... lines can fail -- but not normally in a year.
My guess is a flare failed to hold .... IMO this is the main problem with a mini in the USA. The flare. In much of the world they are all surfaced mounted and the lines exposed ... or mostly exposed. We in the USA like our equipment hidden -- when anything happens -- it's a big deal. I'm in this camp as well ... I hide mine ...but, I make sure that we can get to the fittings some how without ripping too much apart.
Any one of the joints can be the problem ... since there really is no high low on the lines to the heads with the direct piping .. I'm not sure what he was checking.
So the guy never used a tester to test for refrigerant ? You fill the unit and test for the presence of refrigerant .... while also looking for any leaks. I have heard of guys .. just redoing all the flares.
It's sad .... these things just run for years ... especially the quality units. It's the leaks that cause the problems ... I have been lucky and have never had one leak. Naturally the multi head have more places to do the system in.
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The system was low on refrigerant. The first time the tech hooked on the manifold, the high (liquid) side reads 80 psig, and the suction side reads 0.
No branch box. All three linesets terminate at the outdoor unit.
The system was installed in Mar. At that time, framing had completed, but not drywall. It is possible that when the drywalls went up, the workers put a screw into the lineset. But this is unlikely given the short drywall screws (1-1/4") used and that the linesets are resting on top of the 2x4 soffit framing.
The tech only pressurized the system with nitrogen (not R410A) to test.
I agree that the most likely scenario now is that one of the flare connections (on the suction side) at one of the air handler failed. The pressure on the high (liquid) side is holding.
If the lineset fails inside the drywall, this will be messy to replace.
I am wondering if there is an easy way to pressurize each lineset separately to isolate the line?
Lonnies Performance
Well-known member
In the picture, there are 3 zones & therefore 3 solenoids that open to allow refrigerant to the zone that needs conditioning.
The solenoid may not be opening....
Does the heating or cooling function operate in any other zone?
Does the cooling work in the questioned area or is that compromised as well.
The solenoid may not be opening....
Does the heating or cooling function operate in any other zone?
Does the cooling work in the questioned area or is that compromised as well.
All zones are not cooling / heating (I tried both cooling and heating). In addition, the remote diagnostic code shows U0, which means "refrigerant shortage".
Understand that the line sets can never totally close .... there is always some refrigerant flowing to all the heads ..... that's why when doing a multi you have to size them correctly and never oversize. they are designed to have all the heads one most of the time. There is a lot of mis-information and people just don't understand this.
I don's get the .... high and low side pressure. Since the meter is in the condenser -- they high low is not the same as a split .. and since they are connected I also don's see how one side is holding and the other is not.
I would try and get on the phone to the manufacturer. First -- see if the original installer was authorized installer. If so plead you case that you need help .... also, discuss the second (was he authorized installer?)
Something is not adding up here .... you need someone with the skill and equipment to get the job done.
I don's get the .... high and low side pressure. Since the meter is in the condenser -- they high low is not the same as a split .. and since they are connected I also don's see how one side is holding and the other is not.
I would try and get on the phone to the manufacturer. First -- see if the original installer was authorized installer. If so plead you case that you need help .... also, discuss the second (was he authorized installer?)
Something is not adding up here .... you need someone with the skill and equipment to get the job done.
Did the system ever work? ..... since you talk about heating .... it must have heated ... correct?
I always run them like crazy when they are first installed ...
Yes, it worked before. Both cooling and heating. It was in August when I noticed it wasn't cooling.
At the pressures they work -- it would have to be a rare hit with a drywall screw to not leak out quickly.
Can you get to and see all the flare fittings if need be.
I had one install where I had no choice but to burry the joint a few feet from the unit ... there was no way to fish the short tubing from the head any other way. I boxed out square and had it open after the drywall was done. We hung the unit and I ran and tested everything. I had thought about using one of those plastic doors as the unit was obscured from most of the space ... ended up putting the drywall square back in and mudding it in ..w/ pictures.
I think the solution you may be faced with is redoing all the flares. Hope he did not extend any lines. I guess the original installer is not paying for nay of this .... that's a quality unit and I'm sure not cheap
Thanks for the suggestion. Yes, checking the air handler flares joints should be next for the new tech I need to find. The drywall would need to be cut to check those flares.
In the original install, the installer did not sweat/make joints to extend the linesets. The three linesets were each a contiguous 50-ft and then shortened to length outside.
Having full lines is good. Mitsubishi -- has them braze the lines when extending and then uses the flares for the condenser and head like everybody else. Odd -- but approved. Frankly, brazing all of them would be my preference ...but, they worry about dirt.
Anyway -- maybe you have a good idea of locations of joints in wall?
Taking a guess and using one of the roto drill things may be the best way ,,,, shorten/ set the bit so it almost goes through the drywall. Look inside -- depending on placement and location the plastic doors really don't look bad in many situations after all in and painted. After you find the joint you can make the hole bigger in the correct orientation for them to work.
It's a shame the second guy did not go the extra mile and really check the visible joints .... it does not take a huge leak. This "hear" is new to me. At least then you would know for sure -- because with everything opened up you are still going to want to go back and check everything.
Trust me -- I have been in your position. Not with a mini ... with other things -- you just want things fixed. Willing to pay what's needed.
Also -- how did he point to a line being damaged or leaking when he could not get to all the joints ?
Well, the tech's suggestion was to braze service ports onto each of the linesets on the outside, then pressurize each lineset separately. This will tell us which lineset is bad. We would then have to cut the drywall of the corresponding lineset to check / replace.
shade
Well-known member
Interested
Reply back when you know where the leak is
Reply back when you know where the leak is
Mesozoic
Well-known member
I'm very sorry to continue to hear about these headaches, but clearly there is an element of incompetence at play here. As mentioned before, I also suffered from a similar fate, but as I am the acting IT manager for a corporate site and use a well established local contractor for corporate work, I leaned on them to install my residential system. When they sent the B Team and screwed up my flares, I gave them an ultimatum that comprised a statement about me questioning their workmanship and how it might affect our corporate relationship... this prompted them to immediately send the A Team out to resolve all the issues I had with my system.
Understanding that scanchain may not be standing on that podium, this will be a slightly more difficult issue to resolve, but I would actually consider small claims court if they can't make good on the work. Last I checked, small claims is under $5K, so not sure if that's a possibility. Either way, I would research who does good ductless work in your area and pay a different contractor to assess and repair. Since this headache has achieved legendary status (based on the number of responses to this thread), I'd even be willing to reach out to my Florida friends to see if they have anyone to recommend - so send me a PM to let me know exactly where you're located and I'm happy to do that.
Understanding that scanchain may not be standing on that podium, this will be a slightly more difficult issue to resolve, but I would actually consider small claims court if they can't make good on the work. Last I checked, small claims is under $5K, so not sure if that's a possibility. Either way, I would research who does good ductless work in your area and pay a different contractor to assess and repair. Since this headache has achieved legendary status (based on the number of responses to this thread), I'd even be willing to reach out to my Florida friends to see if they have anyone to recommend - so send me a PM to let me know exactly where you're located and I'm happy to do that.
floridafarmer
Well-known member
scanchain - where are you in fl? I'm in the Orlando area - my first mini split was a Daiken unit installed at great expense and not so much knowledge past the install (like cleaning and maintenance) Next couple of systems at rental house were Pioneer out of south Florida and they were installed by some instructors at the local AC Tech school and these guys get it - first crew was from Venezula and most of them are from latin/south america where these units are common and understood like they are in Asia. I'd be happy to share the contact details if you happen to be in central fl.
SALIV8
Well-known member
As i said before scanchain, check your local energy company rebates. They will have a list of qualified contractors if they offer any money back on mini splits.
Also this just dawned on me. Call ecomfort.com and see if they can recommend anyone in your area. I believe they have contacts all over.
Id also be searching yelp and other review sites for ductless ac installers.
Also this just dawned on me. Call ecomfort.com and see if they can recommend anyone in your area. I believe they have contacts all over.
Id also be searching yelp and other review sites for ductless ac installers.
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SALIV8, thank you for the suggestion. I was planning to get one from Daikin
https://daikincomfort.com/find-dealer/locator
SALIV8
Well-known member
The dealer locator for my minis was of no help to me. Hopefully you will get better results!
That assumes a bad line ..... it can happen .... but, it takes many years. There was some line sets with issues .... white vinyl covering over insulation. It was a small percentage and it takes many years.
As I said --- the proper way is to use a proper detector after pressurizing. I hope when you open up to get an eye on all 6 flare joints -- it's not one of the ones the second guy should have spotted.
Most of these installs are straightforward --- you pay a pro to do the dame flares and weigh in the refrigerant ... I feel your pain.
I would still try and call manufacturer --- the tech department may know a good dealer since you are in a larger area for the product
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floridafarmer
Well-known member
OK - sorry about the geography goof -thanks.
Anyway - you might want to call Pioneer in South Florida - since most standard AC companies won't touch a mini-split install unless they provide the system - (I tried lots of them.) Pioneer publishes a list but it wasn't much more help so I ended up calling them and they put me in touch with some good folks. Not sure how wide their network is but Atlanta is not so far from here so might be worth a shot.
These guys they hooked me up with even have one of those Australian cleaning systems that deep cleans the inside heads - they came back in about 9 months to do a cleaning (included with the install) My newer system was still pretty clean but I couldn't believe the amount of junk that came out of my 5 year old Daiken even though I'd rinsed it a few times and have been diligent on the filter cleaning - it's now running like new.
I feel you pain on the competency of most of the "standard" AC techs. A few times my Daiken has really started cooling less and I've had a few techs out that were not able to really make a difference - turns out on both occasions a good cleaning and a breaker reset was all it took to get it back to functioning.
I see more and more of these units being installed and I'm amazed that the local AC companies don't seem to understand the need (or opportunity) presented by the unique maintenance these little units need to stay happy and efficient.
Good luck.
Daiken is not some hole in the wall outfit .. they are a one of the largest makers. They make nice equipment .... quality products. There must be a dealer around in your area ....
Getting the flare right ... not abusing the head units lines when installing. Two most important items ...
Getting the flare right ... not abusing the head units lines when installing. Two most important items ...
OP here. I had another contractor come and investigate the problem. He was recommended by a friend and this contractor used to work on mini-splits for many years outside of the US. He came with a refrigerant leak detector (sniffer). Browsing on Amazon, I think he was using the INFICON D-TEK Select, Refrigerant Leak Detector, 712-202-G1, rated to detect a leak of 0.10 oz./year
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00063VK6Y/?tag=atomicindus08-20
After he filled the linesets with R410A, the detector was able to detect two leaks at the flare connections to the air handlers.
After fixing the bad joints, evacuating and re-charging with R410A, the system appears to be running correctly now. Hopefully it stays this way.
Looking back, the installer really did a bad job with the flare connections at the air handlers. He made not one, but two bad joints. The earlier suspicion about a screw possibly puncturing a lineset turned out to be incorrect.
Thank you everyone for the suggestions and support.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00063VK6Y/?tag=atomicindus08-20
After he filled the linesets with R410A, the detector was able to detect two leaks at the flare connections to the air handlers.
After fixing the bad joints, evacuating and re-charging with R410A, the system appears to be running correctly now. Hopefully it stays this way.
Looking back, the installer really did a bad job with the flare connections at the air handlers. He made not one, but two bad joints. The earlier suspicion about a screw possibly puncturing a lineset turned out to be incorrect.
Thank you everyone for the suggestions and support.
Mesozoic
Well-known member
Excellent!
SALIV8
Well-known member
Talk about luck. Buy this tech dinner, send him Xmas and birthday cards. Don't lose contact with him.
Good to hear ...
This is why install is so important ... get it right from the start.
sad you had both a bad install and a second who did not have the knowledge or equipment to do the job either ... naturally everybody wants to be paid as if they are of the highest caliber.
Just think if you would have followed the second guys advise ...
This is why install is so important ... get it right from the start.
sad you had both a bad install and a second who did not have the knowledge or equipment to do the job either ... naturally everybody wants to be paid as if they are of the highest caliber.
Just think if you would have followed the second guys advise ...
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I agree. Luckily I stepped back and went for a second opinion when the initial repair guy suggested to braze service ports onto the linesets. That would have created a mess.
yep .... sometimes you have to step back .. lick your wounds and regroup.
Go back to step one and hit the most obvious thing.