Daikin Minisplit replace after 5 years??!?

[pgray007]

I have a two-zone Daikin mini split in the FTX series. It was installed before minis were really popular in this area, so I had the unit drop shipped, hanged everything on the wall, and hired a licensed commercial HVAC tech to install the line sets and start the system. I never registered it (stupid) so it's past the 5-year warranty and apparently, Daikin doesn't like people getting their stuff from an "unauthorized distribution channel."

For the last ~5 years, the thing has run like a top, never any problems.

It was struggling to cool recently, so I called a local Daikin authorized HVAC who checked for leaks, charged it up, and all was well for about 4 weeks. Lost cooling again, HVAC found that service ports were loose and leaking said he "tightened the $hit out of them" and charged the system and all was well again.

2 more weeks and lost cooling. Came out, checked for leaks again after borrowing some of my dish soap and then brought in the owner to pull vacuum on heads and outside unit, and apparently one head and the outside unit have a leak that's presumably in the coils? Owner said it's "so expensive to replace coils that it's not even worth it" and wants to sell me a new Daikin system.

How likely is it that this died after 5 years and is essentially "disposable?" These guys seem like good dudes and have put some time into debugging, but I'm wary of a unit that was supposed to be top tier crapping out so quickly, and also things like wailing on the valves with an adjustable wrench rather than torquing to spec, but maybe I'm being overly "by the book."

 

[jjrbus]

I am rather upset and now wondering if I should have bought the disposable junk instead of the Daikin. Unit purchased online Feb 2018 and DIY installed. Stopped cooling recently. Got a local licensed Daikin dealer from Daikin website. $150 for diagnosis, put gauges on said I was low on refrigerant, it would be $130 lb. NO MENTION OF LOOKING FOR A LEAK!

How will you put the refrigerant in, I add until the pressure and super heat are correct. ME, how about evacuating the system and weighting in the charge. Him, thats not how we do it. Me, that is how I want it done, STILL NO MENTION OF LOOKING FOR LEAK! Him I will have to call the office and see how much to charge. Calls office and tells me if I want it done that way to call another company!!! Now at this point neither one of us knows if it is a tiny little leak that took 4 years to leak down or a great big leak, that will leak off in a few days or months. That will be $150 for diagnosis. Yah right, no way no how am I paying you anything.

Took a bit but found the evaporator coil is leaking. Call the seller of the unit, Daikin series 15 is discontinued so no new heads available, but did come up with a new coil for $180. I can get the coil for free under warranty if it is declared defective by a licensed Daikin dealer. So could save $30. This is the second Daikin tech I have dealt with and it is the last time!

Think about it, labor is not covered.

$150 service call
Free coil
Labor to replace coil say 6 hours at $100 hour
2 lbs, .09 Oz refrigerant $260!

That is over a $1000 to repair a unit I paid $1100 for! Now if I had let them rip me off for $400 for the gas and go I could be into this for over $1400!

There I feel better LOL

 

[shade]

Not sure why some people hate on Mr cools but if you find a leak in the coil they replace it very little questions asked. Parts fail, I get that but support after sale is key and so far it seems Mr cool is top notch... food for thoughts all...

 

[jjrbus]

When I did my system, Mr Cool came with a 25 foot lineset that was coiled up behind the condenser. Maybe out behind the barn but not by my house!

 

[gtae07]

I actually like the old Mr Cool linesets better, they were more flexible. The new one is copper line and hard to form into place. There's extra line but it's behind the workshop, so I don't care.
I finally had to replace mine after it died two years out of warranty. But even after two units and a pair of service calls I've still spent less than I was quoted for a single "brand name" unit.

 

[pgray007]

Think about it, labor is not covered.

$150 service call
Free coil
Labor to replace coil say 6 hours at $100 hour
2 lbs, .09 Oz refrigerant $260!

That is over a $1000 to repair a unit I paid $1100 for! Now if I had let them rip me off for $400 for the gas and go I could be into this for over $1400!

There I feel better LOL

Yeah, the whole "labor not covered" think is a kick in the pants and really makes these warranties not so useful, although theoretically reduces the "just rip it out" sensibilities of most techs.

I can't remember exactly what I paid for the unit, but I got a higher-tier model and something like $3K sticks in my mind, plus $400 to have the tech start it up.

It was super-efficient while it was working, but I have a bad feeling I'm going to be quoted something starting with a 6 because "these are really complicated to install," which is totally untrue. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised but the fact that it's 90+ on both the temp and humidity and I can't really use my shop/gym/office has me a bit over a barrel.

 

[jjrbus]

Yeah, the whole "labor not covered" think is a kick in the pants and really makes these warranties not so useful, although theoretically reduces the "just rip it out" sensibilities of most techs.

I can't remember exactly what I paid for the unit, but I got a higher-tier model and something like $3K sticks in my mind, plus $400 to have the tech start it up.

It was super-efficient while it was working, but I have a bad feeling I'm going to be quoted something starting with a 6 because "these are really complicated to install," which is totally untrue. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised but the fact that it's 90+ on both the temp and humidity and I can't really use my shop/gym/office has me a bit over a barrel.

When my central air went out and I quickly found out that most of the AC companys around me are smash and grab types. I put in a large window AC until I could sort things out. I used the window AC for about 6 months. I was given a ball park figure of $10,000 to $12,000 for mini install. Doing my research I found that the pay back time for the high seer ratings units was about 20 years, we have cheap electric in this area. Beyond their life expectancy.

Now I am considering mounting a LG9500 dual inverter in the wall, I have one in my RV and they work well. Not as quiet as a mini but not roaring like a window shaker and not power hogs. I am in Fl so keeping an AC unit clean takes a lot of effort and I am not sure cleaning the LG would be doable. Or I could just throw it out and replace every 3 years or so, at $500 would still be cheaper than mini's or central.

Not being a gudentight or till your nuts twitch type I find the tighten the **** out of it comment concerning. Maybe just an expression but I would be watching carefully.

 

[Jackfre]

I would look online for a replacement evaporator to match your system. A call to Daikin tech might be able to lay your hands on one. If it is dead inventory at a Daikin distributors you may be able to pick it up for short money. Personally I won’t touch a Daikin. They pissed me off back in the early ‘80’s and I haven’t gotten over it.

 

[pgray007]

Well I just got a quote of $9500-$11K for a new system. That seems insane for a mini, and they're saying $3-5K to repair the coil in the condenser.

I'm not sure if the distributor here is charging ridiculous prices for the equipment, or its the install or whatever. I hate sounding like "that guy" who moans about what contractors charge, but I also can't see paying $4K for an install that takes an afternoon even when done with absolute perfection.

With these prices I'd just pony up another $4K to get a system from eComfort and see if I can find someone to turn it on and hope for better luck this time while still coming out ahead.

 

[jjrbus]

New system? One outside unit and one inside unit or a multi head? Brand of system makes a big difference in price. $3-5K to repair coil, might want to get a 2nd estimate.

Dealers do pay high prices for equipment and have to buy the brand license.


I am a "that guy" also! I was not born "that guy" it is life's experiences that made me this way. Very frustrating dealing with this ****!

 

[yeldogt]

Sometimes we are not lucky ..... did they put dye in it to make sure where the leak or leaks are.

Typically it's not cost effective to fix a mini head -- the whole part gets replaced. I would want to make sure that's where it's leaking.

 

[shade]

You can buy the DIY Mr Cool units for relatively inexpensive.
The install is pretty straight forward. Why don't you guys install it yourself. Even a decent handy man can help if needed....no need to pay these stupid quoted labor rates.

 

[pgray007]

Sometimes we are not lucky ..... did they put dye in it to make sure where the leak or leaks are.

Typically it's not cost effective to fix a mini head -- the whole part gets replaced. I would want to make sure that's where it's leaking.

I’m fine on just tossing the head. Going rate seems to be around $500 from the google machine. They didn’t run dye but pressurized they heads and outdoor unit with Nitrogen and were seeing a pressure drop on the outdoor unit.

They gave me the whole spiel about “out of warranty” but if the warranty only covers parts that are not cost effective to replace I keep failing to see how that’s worthwhile.

I can get a Mr. Cool for less than $3K, or self-install a similar Daikin for about $4K and then find an HVAC tech to start it up.

I keep hearing how “quality installation is the most important part” but struggle to see how complex that is outside properly connecting the lines and doing good leak tests. I’d be a lot more receptive if I knew I was actually getting a quality install, which I always find difficult to vet, and it wasn’t 4X the cost of an equivalent DIY option that seems to have the same (or better) warranty.

The guys I’ve been working with are super responsive and seem like good dudes, but the use of adjustable wrenches, “tighten the **** out of it” comments, not showing up without that blue leak spray, and that they cut and braised my line sets closed for the pressure test and effectively killed the line set isn’t inspiring oodles of confidence.

 

[fitter30]

Daikin has for years has had a certain way they want their units started up. With a leak check with 600 lb nitrogen test with prescribed hours to a certain way the evacuation is done. Which was not done since charge was low in 4 weeks and repaired recharge more times. Don't know when your unit was bought but they as far as i know they wanted approved contractors and service people. 11 years ago when i retired out of 46 service people only two were approved ( i wasn't approved being the general foreman) and four installers. Their startup procedure is detailed information on temps ,amps ,voltages and pressures that others don't want.
Other main players in this market want the same.

 

[jjrbus]

Doing my due diligence I found the major cause of mini split failures was improper installation. Installation is not rocket science but is very precise and requires the proper tools. When I was looking there were a lot of You tube videos that were installing R22 units which ran at a lower pressure. The 410a units can run up to 600 psi, which is no place for gud enough!

Daikin university use to have some great videos on you tube, but I do not see them now? This guy is good.

 

[yeldogt]

I’m fine on just tossing the head. Going rate seems to be around $500 from the google machine. They didn’t run dye but pressurized they heads and outdoor unit with Nitrogen and were seeing a pressure drop on the outdoor unit.

They gave me the whole spiel about “out of warranty” but if the warranty only covers parts that are not cost effective to replace I keep failing to see how that’s worthwhile.

I can get a Mr. Cool for less than $3K, or self-install a similar Daikin for about $4K and then find an HVAC tech to start it up.

I keep hearing how “quality installation is the most important part” but struggle to see how complex that is outside properly connecting the lines and doing good leak tests. I’d be a lot more receptive if I knew I was actually getting a quality install, which I always find difficult to vet, and it wasn’t 4X the cost of an equivalent DIY option that seems to have the same (or better) warranty.

The guys I’ve been working with are super responsive and seem like good dudes, but the use of adjustable wrenches, “tighten the **** out of it” comments, not showing up without that blue leak spray, and that they cut and braised my line sets closed for the pressure test and effectively killed the line set isn’t inspiring oodles of confidence.

10 year parts and 1 year labor is the norm.

I just had my first mini-split issue this spring ..... on one of of my three head Mitsubishi systems. They had trouble finding the leak and after talking to Mitsubishi we dyed it first and later added sealant. There are different types btw. After it was running for a couple weeks a tiny leak was found and shocking the guy added refrigerant and it's been working all through this heat wave. Mitsubishi gave a credit for part of new head because the cost in labor to replace the part in the head was more than buying the whole thing. Took over a month to get it ....

All the playing around was about $1400 and the head replacement will be another $2400. I normally add the 10 year labor warranty .... my installer who is very good told me they never have any problems with the Mitsubishi and it's not worth it. I got it anyway on the first one about 7 years ago. He is my Carrier dealer and I always add in the 10 year labor on them ...

I have to say over the years the labor warranty has not paid for itself --- naturally the first one has been working fine and it is this 5 year old one with the leak.

 

[jjrbus]

10 year parts and 1 year labor is the norm.

I just had my first mini-split issue this spring ..... on one of of my three head Mitsubishi systems. They had trouble finding the leak and after talking to Mitsubishi we dyed it first and later added sealant. There are different types btw. After it was running for a couple weeks a tiny leak was found and shocking the guy added refrigerant and it's been working all through this heat wave. Mitsubishi gave a credit for part of new head because the cost in labor to replace the part in the head was more than buying the whole thing. Took over a month to get it ....

All the playing around was about $1400 and the head replacement will be another $2400. I normally add the 10 year labor warranty .... my installer who is very good told me they never have any problems with the Mitsubishi and it's not worth it. I got it anyway on the first one about 7 years ago. He is my Carrier dealer and I always add in the 10 year labor on them ...

I have to say over the years the labor warranty has not paid for itself --- naturally the first one has been working fine and it is this 5 year old one with the leak.

When I was looking the Mitsubishi and Fujitsu were #1 depending on who you talked to. With all three the failure rate is minimal, except for poor installations. I believe Fujitsu has dropped in quality? Daikin was a solid #3. I saved a big chunk of money with Daikin over the others. I did not want to spend the big bucks for the top 2 as it was my first install and was afraid I would be throwing a couple thousand dollars down the toilet if I messed it up. I do not buy warrentys on anything, they are usually a waste of money and a big hassle to use.

 

[yeldogt]

When I was looking the Mitsubishi and Fujitsu were #1 depending on who you talked to. With all three the failure rate is minimal, except for poor installations. I believe Fujitsu has dropped in quality? Daikin was a solid #3. I saved a big chunk of money with Daikin over the others. I did not want to spend the big bucks for the top 2 as it was my first install and was afraid I would be throwing a couple thousand dollars down the toilet if I messed it up. I do not buy warrentys on anything, they are usually a waste of money and a big hassle to use.

Fujitsu seems to always fall in the second spot ..... they are the preferred brand in my area for big old victorians that need the multi head systems using the branch boxes. I used a single Fujitsu in a barn conversion about 10 years -- the loft needed more AC ... extra heat was a plus as well. I went with them as the longer head of the mitsubshi woudl not fit. I can't explain what it is and Mitsubishi obviously will not tell you -- the brains of the Mitsubishi are the best --- they just work better.

That said ... I was unlucky. In general with extended warrantoes I agree .... except with german cars. None of my Carrier systems has hit the 10 year mark so I can't comment on if they will pay or not. It's equipment cost there vs labor.

Mini's are not hard to install or complex --- they do take some skill. it seem the installers like to hire ex cable guys who run lines w/o any thought. In general the equipment is not as robust and needs to be treated with care when installed. In a house setting if you are paying others to install it's worth getting the better equipment. With a simple DIY single head they are almost throw aways on the low end

 

[danski0224]

Their startup procedure is detailed information on temps ,amps ,voltages and pressures that others don't want.
Other main players in this market want the same.

I was asked to "pencil whip" startup documentation for a commercial mini split system.

Asked for all of the stuff mentioned above and more.

I told them no. If you want the book procedures followed, then that's how it'll be done. If you want to pencil whip it, go for it, I'm not going to do it.

Factory start up is in the bid for this equipment, and I'm sure that the warranty is impacted.

 

[danski0224]

I have a two-zone Daikin mini split in the FTX series. It was installed before minis were really popular in this area, so I had the unit drop shipped, hanged everything on the wall, and hired a licensed commercial HVAC tech to install the line sets and start the system. I never registered it (stupid) so it's past the 5-year warranty and apparently, Daikin doesn't like people getting their stuff from an "unauthorized distribution channel."

For the last ~5 years, the thing has run like a top, never any problems.

It was struggling to cool recently, so I called a local Daikin authorized HVAC who checked for leaks, charged it up, and all was well for about 4 weeks. Lost cooling again, HVAC found that service ports were loose and leaking said he "tightened the $hit out of them" and charged the system and all was well again.

2 more weeks and lost cooling. Came out, checked for leaks again after borrowing some of my dish soap and then brought in the owner to pull vacuum on heads and outside unit, and apparently one head and the outside unit have a leak that's presumably in the coils? Owner said it's "so expensive to replace coils that it's not even worth it" and wants to sell me a new Daikin system.

How likely is it that this died after 5 years and is essentially "disposable?" These guys seem like good dudes and have put some time into debugging, but I'm wary of a unit that was supposed to be top tier crapping out so quickly, and also things like wailing on the valves with an adjustable wrench rather than torquing to spec, but maybe I'm being overly "by the book."

As I understand it, the only way to charge these things is to evacuate what's there and then refill with the factory charge + amount for lineset length. There is no "topping off".

Dish soap supposedly isn't anywhere near as good as an actual bubble solution.

Leaks can be very difficult to find. Even with dye.

Yes, replacing coils can be expensive. It's no less work than doing the lineset install process all over again.

Common failure points on mini split installs are flared connections.

I'd start there, first.

If you are balking at the cost of repairs or replacement, you can buy your own bubbles (Big Blu) or buy a leak sniffer and take a swing at finding the leak.

And when it's "fixed", put it under 500 psi of nitrogen for 24 hours, like the directions say.

You can pressurize the whole system, then close any service valves to isolate that part. If that part loses pressure, the leak is in there somewhere.

Like I said, not easy to actually find it.

If the tech didn't come to you and provide proof of finding the leak, then they didn't find it.

 

[yeldogt]

I was asked to "pencil whip" startup documentation for a commercial mini split system.

Asked for all of the stuff mentioned above and more.

I told them no. If you want the book procedures followed, then that's how it'll be done. If you want to pencil whip it, go for it, I'm not going to do it.

Factory start up is in the bid for this equipment, and I'm sure that the warranty is impacted.

sadly .... the vast majority of companies don't service properly.

One of the reasons I'm in the don't touch if it's working properly camp ... replaces the Schrader valves if you do have to play with an old system.

 

[jjrbus]

I have a cheap halogen detector, run it over the system, nothing. Used soap and water on the normal suspect culprits nothing. Ordered Calgon leak detector nothing. Bought a Accutrac hypersonic detector and it showed 2 leaks in the evaporator coil, one I could confirm with bubbles, one is not accessible. Not a lot of reasons to confirm the second one.

Seems like overkill and a lot of $$$$ there was a post about 3 service calls at $1400 to be told they need a new coil for $2500-$3500!

Isn't charging a known leaking system an intentional release of refrigerant under the EPA?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00G1Y4DDE/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[pgray007]

Well I had another tech come out with a company I've used in the past to good effect, but they weren't in the "Daikin official directory" so I tried the other guys first.

He ran a leak detector over the system and found leaks in the condenser and head like the other company, and a small leak in the other head, so agreed with the assessment to replace although was a bit surprised the other company went right to pressure testing before tying a leak detector.

Regarding the "charge without finding the leak" the initial service found some loose fittings, tightened, gassed, and left. Second fill supposedly found some leaking on the service fittings, tightened, gassed, and left.

I got a quote for a smaller Daikin system for $6700 w/ 10 year parts warranty, and a $6400 for a similarly sized Gree system from the second company, with 12yr part and 18mo labor. Gree has better "paper specs" and I saw them all over China, I just kinda hate pumping money into the CCP and have found highly variable quality coming from China.

Other alternative is the Mr. Cool at around $3K but a bit gun shy on the DIY option... I did the mounting and wiring of the Daikin so fine with that stuff, just worried about what happens if I have another leak and have the additional wrinkle of "We won't touch DIY stuff" that seems to be suggested as a problem with the Mr. Cools.

 

[shade]

Mr cool support is great with the DIY line.
They just ask that if the system isn't cooling and a leak is suspected some due diligence is done. A tech finds the leak.
Then they'll ship out parts.
Some people have said just a call got parts.
The DIY of the units are very simple.
Good units IMO

 

[brianpgriset]

As mentioned above, Mr Cool is specifically marketed as DIY. I asked Ingrams water and air, where I ordered my unit, if it would be warrantied with DIY install and they said so long as you register it within 60 days of start the answer is yes.

Been running 1 year so far no issues.

Install was quite easy.

 

[bluedog225]

Do others note a greater number of Mr. Cools that are low on refrigerant? Anecdotal but if true, I wonder if it is the nature of the quick connect fittings?

 

[jjrbus]

Do others note a greater number of Mr. Cools that are low on refrigerant? Anecdotal but if true, I wonder if it is the nature of the quick connect fittings?

I lurk on a few AC boards to hopefully find info that will help me maintain and repair my 3 Daikins. There are surprisingly few problems reportedon on all brands of mini's. Not counting faulty installs.

 

[4x4Pete]

Minisplits in general ****. Crappy build materials, lots of oem parts like motors, blower wheels and control boards. Up here mice like to get i to the condensing unit and chew on the mass of wiring that is within. They do have their place but it isn't everywhere.

 

[jjrbus]

Minisplits in general ****. Crappy build materials, lots of oem parts like motors, blower wheels and control boards. Up here mice like to get i to the condensing unit and chew on the mass of wiring that is within. They do have their place but it isn't everywhere.

Minis are more computer than AC! So far the only gripe I have with them is taking the blower wheel out to clean, poor design. The only one that has addressed it is Friedrich.