Damp Location?

[rinny_tin_tin]

Is the garage considered a damp location?

Does the mandatory single receptacle must be GFCI lend to the notion that the garage is a damp location?

If it is considered a damp location - how does this impact the use of Type NM cable?

 

[LoneGunman]

Nope, nope and allowed as long as it's installed properly, not subect to physical damage, ETC.

 

[nadogail]

Dont worry about wether the garage is or is not a damp location, add the GFCI for your personal protection and be done with it.

A GFCI is an inexpensive device when you consider safety.

 

[nissan_crawler]

Disclaimer: I'm not an electrician in the slightest.

I believe the that you need at least one gfci, but if you have multiple circuits, each has to be gfci protected UNLESS there is a single plug or double plug that is used on two pieces of equipment that won't be moved or unplugged often.

That being said, I don't have any in mine. Oh well. Ironically, my pressure washer, which is the one tool that I would want one for says NOT to use one, because it will damage it, so it has an internal gfci on it.

If I was going to do it, I would use gfci breakers, since I have most outlets dedicated to a single breaker anyway, so tripping one wouldn't be a big deal. I personally hate gfci outlets. I put a mark on them if it trips, and if it trips again, I toss them and install a new one. They deteriorate rapidly after that with my experience.

Chopsaws, grinders, etc., don't get along well with gfci outlets in my experience.

 

[rinny_tin_tin]

Is the garage considered a damp location?

Does the mandatory single receptacle must be GFCI lend to the notion that the garage is a damp location?

If it is considered a damp location - how does this impact the use of Type NM cable?

Gotcha - Thanx - my concern resulted after pouring through all the code requirements, including the NEC article that prohibits running NM in damp locations. Now - we see that many of the *garages* here on GJ are palaces and in many cases, better built and cared for than probably the main dwelling; however, given the latitude for interpretation by the code officials, and certain ambiguity in NEC Article 100's definitions, I wasn't sure what to make of it. Of course, I see NM in garages like spaghetti, but I was just curious what the skinny --Thanx again - as I continue to run NM thruout me' garage!

 

[rinny_tin_tin]

Disclaimer: I'm not an electrician in the slightest.

I believe the that you need at least one gfci, but if you have multiple circuits, each has to be gfci protected UNLESS there is a single plug or double plug that is used on two pieces of equipment that won't be moved or unplugged often.

That being said, I don't have any in mine. Oh well. Ironically, my pressure washer, which is the one tool that I would want one for says NOT to use one, because it will damage it, so it has an internal gfci on it.

If I was going to do it, I would use gfci breakers, since I have most outlets dedicated to a single breaker anyway, so tripping one wouldn't be a big deal. I personally hate gfci outlets. I put a mark on them if it trips, and if it trips again, I toss them and install a new one. They deteriorate rapidly after that with my experience.

Chopsaws, grinders, etc., don't get along well with gfci outlets in my experience.

Thanx - I don;t mind GFCIs - in fact, I like them and have had good luck with the (i.e., no nuisance tripping, etc) and I agree - I prefer the ckt brkr type in lieu of the outlet type. I will be using GFCIs liberally in this install.

Thanx

 

[rinny_tin_tin]

Dont worry about wether the garage is or is not a damp location, add the GFCI for your personal protection and be done with it.

A GFCI is an inexpensive device when you consider safety.

Gotcha - Thanx!

 

[rinny_tin_tin]

Nope, nope and allowed as long as it's installed properly, not subect to physical damage, ETC.

Gotcha - Thanx - my concern resulted after pouring through all the code requirements, including the NEC article that prohibits running NM in damp locations. Now - we see that many of the *garages* here on GJ are palaces and in many cases, better built and cared for than probably the main dwelling; however, given the latitude for interpretation by the code officials, and certain ambiguity in NEC Article 100's definitions, I wasn't sure what to make of it. Of course, I see NM in garages like spaghetti, but I was just curious what the skinny --Thanx again - as I continue to run NM thruout me' garage!

 

[walrus]

You'll find some muncipalities that don't allow NM without if being covered, other than that I don't know of any restrictions for NM in a garage.

 

[Shocker]

All my circuits are GFI protected.

 

[Torque1st]

Don't use a GFI on a submersible type sump pump. Moisture will eventually creep thru the wire connections and even find it's way past seals and the plastic housing molecule by molecule. The moisture will eventually trip the GFI and the pump will invariably not work when needed. Use a single receptacle outlet for the sump pump on a dedicated branch circuit.

 

[rinny_tin_tin]

Don't use a GFI on a submersible type sump pump. Moisture will eventually creep thru the wire connections and even find it's way past seals and the plastic housing molecule by molecule. The moisture will eventually trip the GFI and the pump will invariably not work when needed. Use a single receptacle outlet for the sump pump on a dedicated branch circuit.

Thanx - but I dont; have any sump pumps, and my opinion is that if a sump pump is needed, then the design was defective to begin with.

Besides - when does the power fail to supply a sump pump - but when the weather is nasty!

 

[rinny_tin_tin]

You'll find some muncipalities that don't allow NM without if being covered, other than that I don't know of any restrictions for NM in a garage.

The NM I'm running is protected in a sense in that it is up and hidden from normal view in channels formed from the rafters, etc...However, my jurisdiction doesn;t seem to have a problem with it - yet!

 

[Torque1st]

Thanx - but I dont; have any sump pumps, and my opinion is that if a sump pump is needed, then the design was defective to begin with.

Besides - when does the power fail to supply a sump pump - but when the weather is nasty!

Some locations require a sump pump for foundation drains which is not a defective design but a prudent one.

 

[rinny_tin_tin]

Some locations require a sump pump for foundation drains which is not a defective design but a prudent one.

This issue is far afield from the original topic - however, if you can't build on a grade that passively diverts and drains the water - then you shouldn't be building on it using conventional means (i.e., footers, etc) If its corrective to fix someone elses mistake - then you can't get around it. Elevated building/piers is one way of building on wet ground that can't otherwise be reasonably passively drained - however, if you need a sump pump - the design is defective - plain and simple.

 

[Torque1st]

This issue is far afield from the original topic - however, if you can't build on a grade that passively diverts and drains the water - then you shouldn't be building on it using conventional means (i.e., footers, etc) If its corrective to fix someone elses mistake - then you can't get around it. Elevated building/piers is one way of building on wet ground that can't otherwise be reasonably passively drained - however, if you need a sump pump - the design is defective - plain and simple.

Nope.

 

[rinny_tin_tin]

Nope.

Well...I should have considered the source - mold and mold-related diseases are as common in Kansas as the sunflower, blind conservative Republicans, and immigri farm workers. Has to do with all them tornadoes and the need to have a hole underground to hide. So, keep that dehumidifier plugged in, yer sump pump plugged in and yer root cellar clear - and make sure ya got an emergency generator to keep from floating out of your root cellar when that tornado comes and kills yer power.

Oh yeah..another malady resulting from too much mold exposure is a shrunken willy and poor judgment

LOL

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Some locations require a sump pump for foundation drains which is not a defective design but a prudent one.

Indeed, my brother lives in Fargo, ND, and virtually every house in town has a 3/4 basement, and all have sump pumps in a pit in the corner. Everyone has two pumps, one to use, and one spare. In the spring melts, the pump runs nearly continual, all due to the type of soil, the depth of the freeze, etc, simply a fact of life that cannot be avoided.

Charles

 

[dstryr]

Well...I should have considered the source - mold and mold-related diseases are as common in Kansas as the sunflower, blind conservative Republicans, and immigri farm workers. Has to do with all them tornadoes and the need to have a hole underground to hide. So, keep that dehumidifier plugged in, yer sump pump plugged in and yer root cellar clear - and make sure ya got an emergency generator to keep from floating out of your root cellar when that tornado comes and kills yer power.

Oh yeah..another malady resulting from too much mold exposure is a shrunken willy and poor judgment

LOL

you talk too much.

 

[Torque1st]

you talk too much.

Unfortunatly the Tin dog suffers from the same malady as the OZ Tin man so we have to consider the source with ANYTHING he says.

 

[rinny_tin_tin]

Indeed, my brother lives in Fargo, ND, and virtually every house in town has a 3/4 basement, and all have sump pumps in a pit in the corner. Everyone has two pumps, one to use, and one spare. In the spring melts, the pump runs nearly continual, all due to the type of soil, the depth of the freeze, etc, simply a fact of life that cannot be avoided.

Charles

There is where we differ...you say that it is a fact of life that cannot be avoided - and there I have to disagree. I also live in a 3/4 arrangement with a walkout basement, and the land is graded to permit passive external water-proofing. Water cannot collect and cannot come into contact with the bottom of the slab, let alone the walls. The way to avoid it is to grade the land appropriately or to not build. Just as you wouldn't have a roof system that depends on an active (i.e., pump) means to discharge water, equally, one shouldn't have an active means to discharge water. Inasmuch as the building folks permit the use of sump pumps, the design, by my definition, is nonetheless defective. Other means also exist aside from external waterproofing, such as elevated construction, etc.

 

[rinny_tin_tin]

Unfortunatly the Tin dog suffers from the same malady as the OZ Tin man so we have to consider the source with ANYTHING he says.

Nebraska - eh? You and Torque found each other

 

[dstryr]

There is where we differ...you say that it is a fact of life that cannot be avoided - and there I have to disagree. I also live in a 3/4 arrangement with a walkout basement, and the land is graded to permit passive external water-proofing. Water cannot collect and cannot come into contact with the bottom of the slab, let alone the walls. The way to avoid it is to grade the land appropriately or to not build. Just as you wouldn't have a roof system that depends on an active (i.e., pump) means to discharge water, equally, one shouldn't have an active means to discharge water. Inasmuch as the building folks permit the use of sump pumps, the design, by my definition, is nonetheless defective. Other means also exist aside from external waterproofing, such as elevated construction, etc.

Why all the rambling and condescending talk? Your opinion that the use of a sump pump is by default a defective design is nothing more than you being full of yourself and looking to argue with the good people on this board.

Homes built where the ground freezes to a depth of several feet need footings to go below the frost line to maintain the structural integrity of the home. A basement is a use of that space.

Propose how you would have built up the entire city of Chicago so that no sump pumps were needed? 100+ year old homes were not built to have family rooms, etc. in basements but owners now can enjoy them because it is more PRACTICAL to install a sump than it is to excavate and seal the walls or rebuild. Again, like your incompetent argument that board members were 'ignoring' induction lighting, you fail to grasp the inane stupidity of your own words. You aren't smarter than the people on the board who didn't use them, you are actually ill-informed about the uses and application of that light source. My lighting guy says about the only place he is seeing engineers spec them is in TUNNELS because stopping traffic is not practical. Other than that, virtually none. If you're smarter than all the lighting engineers then someone has a sales job just waiting for you.

We're all thrilled that you're so smart that your home doesn't need a sump. The additional cost of construction to go to your acceptable means to avoid needing one is apparently for most people less acceptable than simply having one. You're not going to get away from use of deep footings. Using the space rather than increasing the size of the the home above ground is prudent because there is less energy required for heating and cooling. You seem to be an environmentally concious individual from your rant about mercury and oil in the induction lighting thread, so that might make sense to you.

Fargo, ND wasn't built last week. Beautiful old homes didn't have the luxury of your wisdom or modern methods to keep their basements dry. Apparently people making the best of a situation isn't up to your standards. Tone down your responses while you look down your nose at the people who are trying to help each other here.

 

[hidollartoys]

Just my .02...... Most municipalities require a sump pump in "new" construction usually following an event where the sewer system failed to divert and handle storm water runoff. Some rual areas also require these due to the fact people want to build a home in an ares where it would "float" otherwise. In most KC cities it is now required and in some cases cities have assisted home owners in installing pumps in existing homes and have required some sort of battery back-up. This has not and in some cases is not required in homes with "walk-out" lower levels. Sump pumps are just good insurance in the event that some unforseen event occures. Home builders are always building in areas where underground water is a problem. Construction techniques exist that will mitigate the need for pumps but usually are not required by local building codes. If homes are built in a condensed area it is inevitable that homes will be built in areas with high water tables. Sump pumps are cheap insurance and in some cases are manditory for the structuce to be inhabitated.

As for the GFI issue, I believe the intent, as I understand it, is to install these devices in locations where the persence of standing water is a "probability" or a "possibility", also defined as a "damp" location. No one "expects" a rational intellegent individual to expose themselves to an electrical shock hazard, the requirement is there for all the other "individuals". These devices are suspect at best and are mostly a pain the *** for installers and trouble shooting. There existance in the world has probably saved the lives of those that are all but on the bottom of the food chain and the unspecting "unsupervised" younger ones in our population. Safety comes at a price..... for all. Again just my .02

 

[rinny_tin_tin]

Just my .02...... Most municipalities require a sump pump in "new" construction usually following an event where the sewer system failed to divert and handle storm water runoff. Some rual areas also require these due to the fact people want to build a home in an ares where it would "float" otherwise. In most KC cities it is now required and in some cases cities have assisted home owners in installing pumps in existing homes and have required some sort of battery back-up. This has not and in some cases is not required in homes with "walk-out" lower levels. Sump pumps are just good insurance in the event that some unforseen event occures. Home builders are always building in areas where underground water is a problem. Construction techniques exist that will mitigate the need for pumps but usually are not required by local building codes. If homes are built in a condensed area it is inevitable that homes will be built in areas with high water tables. Sump pumps are cheap insurance and in some cases are manditory for the structuce to be inhabitated.

As for the GFI issue, I believe the intent, as I understand it, is to install these devices in locations where the persence of standing water is a "probability" or a "possibility", also defined as a "damp" location. No one "expects" a rational intellegent individual to expose themselves to an electrical shock hazard, the requirement is there for all the other "individuals". These devices are suspect at best and are mostly a pain the *** for installers and trouble shooting. There existance in the world has probably saved the lives of those that are all but on the bottom of the food chain and the unspecting "unsupervised" younger ones in our population. Safety comes at a price..... for all. Again just my .02

Thanx for your two cents and comments. Despite the acceptance and recognition by Code bodies and the authorities having jurisdiction for sump pump architectures, and their proliferation -- as a matter of sound engineering practice - it ***** and is therefore defective. Here is why

Proposition 1

Critical systems shall not be dependent on subordinate systems to insure reliability and continuity of critical services.

How that is applied here: If your house is flooded you have a substantive and unacceptable loss - therefore, its a critical system.

Sump pumps depend on electric power - a subordinate system since the AHJ who allow sump pump solutions also does not require emergency power in the event normal power is lost.

AHJ also does not invoke a standby sump-pump in the event of failure to No. 1 sump pump

The losses of Katrina and Rita serve to highlight the benefits of a passive solution particularly in recovery - however, as you seem to imply, building in NOLA is just looking for trouble.

Gravity is free

As for GFCIs: GFCIs save many many lives and not just indigents and those on the "bottom of the food chain." I don't understand your rationale here or what class has to do with electric shock safety. They work well, they are cheap and I don't see how they incur any back-breaking cost increases.

 

[Mike83]

I bought a foreclosure last fall with a malfunctioning sump pump. The flooded basement and moldy walls saved me $50k off market value. Oh, and I reconnected the sump float, so now it works.

 

[rinny_tin_tin]

Why all the rambling and condescending talk? Your opinion that the use of a sump pump is by default a defective design is nothing more than you being full of yourself and looking to argue with the good people on this board.

Homes built where the ground freezes to a depth of several feet need footings to go below the frost line to maintain the structural integrity of the home. A basement is a use of that space.

Propose how you would have built up the entire city of Chicago so that no sump pumps were needed? 100+ year old homes were not built to have family rooms, etc. in basements but owners now can enjoy them because it is more PRACTICAL to install a sump than it is to excavate and seal the walls or rebuild. Again, like your incompetent argument that board members were 'ignoring' induction lighting, you fail to grasp the inane stupidity of your own words. You aren't smarter than the people on the board who didn't use them, you are actually ill-informed about the uses and application of that light source. My lighting guy says about the only place he is seeing engineers spec them is in TUNNELS because stopping traffic is not practical. Other than that, virtually none. If you're smarter than all the lighting engineers then someone has a sales job just waiting for you.

We're all thrilled that you're so smart that your home doesn't need a sump. The additional cost of construction to go to your acceptable means to avoid needing one is apparently for most people less acceptable than simply having one. You're not going to get away from use of deep footings. Using the space rather than increasing the size of the the home above ground is prudent because there is less energy required for heating and cooling. You seem to be an environmentally concious individual from your rant about mercury and oil in the induction lighting thread, so that might make sense to you.

Fargo, ND wasn't built last week. Beautiful old homes didn't have the luxury of your wisdom or modern methods to keep their basements dry. Apparently people making the best of a situation isn't up to your standards. Tone down your responses while you look down your nose at the people who are trying to help each other here.

I'm not sure why you copied my response to Charles as an example of condescending treatment. I find the dialogue from Charles to be sound and his comments are accompanied with sound basis -- although in some cases I may not agree.

I notice that you have a problem standing alone - you drag in the Torque guy and now you drag in Charles. Your ad populum approach does not serve you well and suggests you are a coward. If you wanted a good example of condescending talk - you should have posted your "you talk too much" comment herein. You didn't say anything else or contribute anything else - you just said "you talk too much"

I'm here to listen, ask questions, and when possible offer my opinions/guidance/comments. My original question dealt with a nuance with the definition of damp spaces and it was quickly, persuasively and concisely answered by Lone Gunman. I welcome the follow on dialogue that followed; however, it later took a turn as frequently occurs in such fora. That is OK too.

I like the forum and I have learned much. However, if you want YOUR opinions, go talk to your biggest fan - the mirror.

For those of you who have PMed me on the subject and have offered kind words and apologies for the behavior of some of the more pugilistic members Thanks ... its OK and I understand. I appreciate the forum, the dynamics, and the occasional leg-lifting -- its perfectly normal and just look beyond.
Recognize that these same people also have a valid perspective and although can be argumentative, can provide invaluable insight.

This isn't a social tea party of diplomats - Thank God

 

[rinny_tin_tin]

I bought a foreclosure last fall with a malfunctioning sump pump. The flooded basement and moldy walls saved me $50k off market value. Oh, and I reconnected the sump float, so now it works.

Good work - here is an example of the consequences of a subordinate system used to insure a critical requirement. Hopefully, restoration was far less than the 50K savings.......Good work and good luck. If you are going to keep the sump pump arrangement, I recommend that you consider a backup sump pump as well as an emergency source of power and a flooding/pump failure alarm. Probably the best and simplest standby pump arrangement is to have the two pumps work all the time in parallel with two independent suctions feeding a common discharge manifold.

I'm also a Badger -- UW alumni!

Enjoy