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deal at lowes..

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LowNFToy

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just thought id share that i picked these up at lowes the other night for $13.. i thought it was a good deal, Kobalt brand.. but they feel pretty durable, and the package says return if any problems no questions asked. priced seperately it was well over $35.

dscf00403yu.jpg
 
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bmwpower

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Guys it's $13.... what do you want? If it breaks, just go back and get another one.
 

mdshore348

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when americans make the same quality product for the same price, ill be glad to buy it.
China actually has some decent products. just got a nice 4 post lift from china. half of usa $ made of equal , i mean equal /i checked both out in person .i love it.
the root of the prob : for example, my uncle is dumb as a doorknob, he worked at GM assembly plant , earned 65k a yr when he retired on full pension , that was over ten years ago... sorry didnt mean to carry on... its just that...we have already lost the battle ,most dont realize.
 

Pete F.

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mdshore348 said:
when americans make the same quality product for the same price, ill be glad to buy it.
China actually has some decent products. just got a nice 4 post lift from china. half of usa $ made of equal , i mean equal /i checked both out in person .i love it.
the root of the prob : for example, my uncle is dumb as a doorknob, he worked at GM assembly plant , earned 65k a yr when he retired on full pension , that was over ten years ago... sorry didnt mean to carry on... its just that...we have already lost the battle ,most dont realize.

The economy/cost of living in the US is higher than in China. We can't make products that are price-competitive. It is comparing apples to oranges. See this chart below:

Relative labor costs among major auto-producing nations, in dollars per hour (Source: U.S. office of Trade and Economic Analysis)

Germany - $33.00
U. S. - $22.50
France - $22.10
Japan - $20.20
Canada - $19.40
U. K. - $18.60
S. Korea - $8.40
Taiwan - $5.20
Mexico - $2.70
China - $0.90

What you have to ask yourself is whether or not you would want to work for 5% of your current salary...or, if you would want to have Americans buy a Chinese version of your current service/trade/product because they can get it for half the price.

We have not already lost the battle - each person can make a difference by purchasing American-made products whenever possible.

Isn't it a bit selfish to live in a wealthy nation and buy inexpensive goods so you can get more for your money? How long do you think the US can remain a wealthy nation if nobody is actually buying the products we produce?

If people continue to not support American products whenever possible, eventually our economy will adapt to the cost of Chinese goods and salaries will drop. Then, all we will be able to afford are less expensive products...until the less expensive products go up in price.

-Pete
 

krooser

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mdshore348 said:
when americans make the same quality product for the same price, ill be glad to buy it.
China actually has some decent products. just got a nice 4 post lift from china. half of usa $ made of equal , i mean equal /i checked both out in person .i love it.
the root of the prob : for example, my uncle is dumb as a doorknob, he worked at GM assembly plant , earned 65k a yr when he retired on full pension , that was over ten years ago... sorry didnt mean to carry on... its just that...we have already lost the battle ,most dont realize.
Most American made products are of a higher quality than the Chinese stuff...China is our ENEMY...every year they officially declare that the US IS their #1 enemy and they are out to bury us economically (and the rest of the Western world).

Sometimes it's impossible to find a non-Chinese product..but every time you buy their junk you are putting another nail in our economic coffin.

When your job sails overseas I would bet you will see things from a different perspective...
 

danski0224

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mdshore348 said:
when americans make the same quality product for the same price, ill be glad to buy it.
China actually has some decent products. just got a nice 4 post lift from china. half of usa $ made of equal , i mean equal /i checked both out in person .i love it.
the root of the prob : for example, my uncle is dumb as a doorknob, he worked at GM assembly plant , earned 65k a yr when he retired on full pension , that was over ten years ago... sorry didnt mean to carry on... its just that...we have already lost the battle ,most dont realize.

You, and others that share the same point of view, need to read the post made by Pete F.

The only way Americans can compete with cheap foreign labor is if the Americans earn the same amount of money. The capital costs of the building, land, and the machines that make the product are nearly a wash worldwide (you aren't going to outfit a plant in China for 5% of the cost of an American plant). The labor, benefits, work rules and environmental costs are the biggies.

Retail stores will bring in cheaper imported "store brand" merchandise to collapse the sales of the more expensive, less profitable, domestic made product. Once the Channellocks stop selling, the store drops the vendor. Then the price goes up on the imported store brand ****. People at the US vendor lose their jobs because sales targets aren't met anymore. Cycle repeats.

Those that say we are improving the quality of life in China are right. Next to oil, we are making one of the largest transfers of wealth in modern history. While the quality of life is improving in China, the quality of life is decreasing in America- at least for those not in the 2% of the population that control 98% of the money.

What is wrong with earning $65k a year at GM? Who can afford those new $50k pickups?- certainly not the displaced worker earning $9.50 an hour at the Made in China Emporium. Will the retail prices go down if wages are slashed, or will that cash be turned into "extra profit" for Wall Street?

Here's a hint- Levis, Radio Flyer wagons and Maytag appliance prices (to name a few) did not go down when production was moved from the USA.

What kind of house can you buy on $65k a year without a huge down payment? How does the first time buyer get that huge down payment working at the Made in China Emporium? Not a whole hell of a lot of "affordable" housing in my area (actually, just about nothing around here)- unless you want to drive a couple of hours each way (which contributes to urban sprawl).

When the great American way of life collapses into the great Red China Sunset, people like you will be to blame. Things aren't too expensive, we just aren't making the same amount of money as the previous generation or two. The numbers are bigger, but the purchasing power isn't the same.
 

bmwpower

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danski0224 said:
"Go buy another one"...

Great attitude.

When Chinese made becomes the only choice, where will Americans work? China?

You've misquoted me, which seems to be happening a lot to me lately... You could do what you want, but if I bought the tools and they broke, I'd take them back and get another one for FREE since they're under warranty.

Why is it that everytime someone brings up a tool that may be made in China, everyone starts going off on a rant? Maybe we should start a Chinese tool rant section so all of you guys can have at it. I'm not in favor buying Chinese tools, but if it's a decent product (maybe not the BEST) for a decent price, what's the big deal? Just because it's made in USA does not mean it's any good. For Christ sake, it's $13...
 

Pete F.

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bmwpower said:
You've misquoted me, which seems to be happening a lot to me lately... You could do what you want, but if I bought the tools and they broke, I'd take them back and get another one for FREE since they're under warranty.

How many trips to the store are justified to save $20? Why not buy an American made tool that has a warranty?

bmwpower said:
Why is it that everytime someone brings up a tool that may be made in China, everyone starts going off on a rant? Maybe we should start a Chinese tool rant section so all of you guys can have at it.

I guess some of us hold on to the hope that if it is repeated enough, folks will get the idea that buying cheap knock-offs hurts our economy. Some of us care about the future of this country.

bmwpower said:
I'm not in favor buying Chinese tools, but if it's a decent product (maybe not the BEST) for a decent price, what's the big deal? Just because it's made in USA does not mean it's any good. For Christ sake, it's $13...

You have a nice collection of cars in your signature - how long would it take you to pay for them at 5% of what you currently make?

Yeah, it's $13. If you had the choice of giving a friend/relative $13 or flushing the $13 down the toilet, which would you choose?

-Pete
 

danski0224

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Buy, get- who cares?

I have lost far more pliers that I have broken. In fact- I have never had a pair of pliers break on me (absolutley none of them are Chinese, though). I have a set of 10 year old Craftsman needle nose pliers, but the etched name that was on the joint has worn off, so I am probably SOL on the warranty. I can afford to buy another pair.

"For Christ sake, it's $13..."

It is $13 multiplied by tens of thousands- if not millions- of units. All those sales that will never go to a domestic (or at least democratic) producer. There is probably one plant in China that makes all the slip joint pliers for all the China Haven stores, just with different plastic handles and names etched/stamped into them.

The big deal is eventually, unless something changes, the American manufacturers (and their jobs) will go away and never return.

Then what? Do we all peddle get rich quick pyramid schemes on the internet on our Chinese made computers?

This is a garage forum, and many here seem to have a tool fetish. Some people here have posted pictures of six figure tool collections. Obviously, tools are important to someone that has a garage fetish. There are garage pictures that I admire and will never be able to afford unless I win the lottery (my garage dreams are just that- dreams). It really bugs me when someone with the financial means chooses to sell out America on cheap Chinese junk.

I feel just as strongly about anything made in China. I refuse to buy it unless I have no other choice (500w quartz worklights are a good example- if anyone knows of a US made one- please let me know).
 

logical

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It's nice to say it's the evil Chinese....but think for 7 seconds.

Let's say you are the president of Lowe's Inc., so you stock the store with SK and Snap-On plier sets at $99.95. Joe homeowner never comes back and John Stockholder is furious over what a ***** you are. So you get wise and ask Joe Homeowner what he is willing to pay. Joe says he'd get all giddy and buy a set of pliers if they were $13. The only way to get $13 sets is from a country, like China, that is a few decades behind us on the standard of living curve.

Who drove this?....I say Joe Homeowner and John Stockholder.
 

danski0224

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logical said:
It's nice to say it's the evil Chinese....but think for 7 seconds.Who drove this?....I say Joe Homeowner and John Stockholder.

You are correct. Unfortunatley, consumers seem to give little thought to many purchasing decisions. To paraphrase, "It's just $13".

Kinda why people in their cheaply built McMansions are complaining about the gas bill. It looks good... but better insulation, windows and HVAC equipment got the budget cuts for the stainless appliances and granite counters.

Wall Street greed isn't helping, either.

I believe our standard of living is going to move back a bit in the near future.
 

Pete F.

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logical said:
It's nice to say it's the evil Chinese....but think for 7 seconds.

Let's say you are the president of Lowe's Inc., so you stock the store with SK and Snap-On plier sets at $99.95. Joe homeowner never comes back and John Stockholder is furious over what a ***** you are. So you get wise and ask Joe Homeowner what he is willing to pay. Joe says he'd get all giddy and buy a set of pliers if they were $13. The only way to get $13 sets is from a country, like China, that is a few decades behind us on the standard of living curve.

Who drove this?....I say Joe Homeowner and John Stockholder.

Wouldn't the converse also be true? If you are George Garagaholic and you only buy quality, American made tools, what would happen to Lowe's when you stopped shopping there because all they sell is Chinese junk? It goes both ways, if you are insistent on only buying quality, American made tools - you influence change. The trend toward this cheap **** can be reversed by insisting on American made.

Keep in mind that apart from hurting the economy, the use of these tools can be dangerous. Have you ever had a breaker bar break when you are putting 200 ft/lb of torque into loosening something? I can't say as I have heard of a Chinese lift failing, but I certainly am glad that mine is American made - especially when I am standing under it with my F-250 parked on it.

Folks obviously have a choice about what they buy and for what reasons - I guess my hope would be that people just think about the ramifications of their purchases.

Here's a good read if you still need convincing:

http://madeinusa.org/nav.cgi?info/whybuy
 

bmwpower

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All I am saying is this whole thread started with someone who was trying to pass along a "good deal" to others. This and other threads are often riddled with such economical talk, which I think, would be better left elsewhere than in the Tool Time forum on this board. Maybe it's just me...
 

danski0224

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You cannot separate a "good deal" from "economics" and sometimes "politics".

That is the problem with many consumers- they fail to recognize that their actions have consequences.
 

ju539

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Once in a while a topic comes up on which I can not avoid a comment.

What scares me the most about this "made in China" phenomenon is that we have lost our tooling, machinery and general mechanical know-how to the (enemy) Chinese.

When the United States got sucked into World War II we immediately started building war equipment and supplies. Chrysler built tanks, Ford built planes, etc. Even a near by fountain pen factory build gun sights.

But when we get into it with China, where are we going to buy our planes, tanks, tools, uniforms, etc?? SCARY !!!
 
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REFLEXX

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Gentlemen,

Up to about a year ago I was a staunch "Buy American" guy. I lost my good corporate job because of "lower cost imports" and the decline of the manufacturing industry. I've been in manufacturing since 1987 and I've seen it tank since the mid 90's.

I gave up. EVEN IF every single one of the Junkies (let's say 1,000 of us) suddenly decide to buy 100% American. What change do you think will occure? Will China shut down? I don't think so.

Go to Target, Go to Wallmart, go to HD or Lowes. I'd say 70%+ is now made in China. I pick up a piece of pipe (China), or a pair of jeans (China) or ANY electronic device (China) or office supply (China).

We're ALL blowing smoke out of our asses if we alone think we can implement change. It will take a drastic plunge in our standard of living before this fat, lazy country will do ANYTHING about this problem.

When's the last time one of you called a congressman to insist the Chinese change thier currency levels, or trade standards???

I was BORN in a communist country, I know what it's like to have an evil regime in charge.

I hate the Chinese Government, I have nothing against Chinese people. They're just trying to feed thier families, like we are.

I will buy the appropriate tool/product I need, regardless of where it's made.

OR I can go broke much faster by being rightous and buy the most expensive product while the welfare fatties shop at Walmart and bury this country.

I love this country, but change will come when the 80% stupid people in this country wake up, not when the smart 20% complain on-line.

how's that for a mindless rant? :willy_nil But my point is how many here are actually DOING anything to chage this? I don't mean buying American, I mean political involvment.




By the way, I thought politics were not allowed on GJ?
 

Pete F.

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REFLEXX said:
Gentlemen,

Up to about a year ago I was a staunch "Buy American" guy. I lost my good corporate job because of "lower cost imports" and the decline of the manufacturing industry. I've been in manufacturing since 1987 and I've seen it tank since the mid 90's.

I gave up. EVEN IF every single one of the Junkies (let's say 1,000 of us) suddenly decide to buy 100% American. What change do you think will occure? Will China shut down? I don't think so.

My goal isn't to shut down China, my goal is to help our economy. 1000 people have a lot of buying power, and, depending on the business, that may be enough to keep an American company in business and its employees at their job.

Think about the number of people in this country and the impact that a small percentage of them changing their buying habits would have.

REFLEXX said:
Go to Target, Go to Wallmart, go to HD or Lowes. I'd say 70%+ is now made in China. I pick up a piece of pipe (China), or a pair of jeans (China) or ANY electronic device (China) or office supply (China).

We're ALL blowing smoke out of our asses if we alone think we can implement change. It will take a drastic plunge in our standard of living before this fat, lazy country will do ANYTHING about this problem.

I expect some things to be made in China and if have to buy something made in China, I will. But, if there is an American made tools sitting next to one made in China, I will buy the American made tool every time.

As long as our government allows businesses to farm out production to foreign countries to increase their bottom line, this will go on. If there was something done to make it less attractive to have work done in China, less businesses would do it.

Since the odds of the government putting an end to this or limiting the amount to which it is done are practically zero, the only thing we can do to make a business feel some discomfort for sending work to China is to not buy from them. It's called the invisible hand of economy and it does work.

REFLEXX said:
When's the last time one of you called a congressman to insist the Chinese change thier currency levels, or trade standards???

I was BORN in a communist country, I know what it's like to have an evil regime in charge.

I hate the Chinese Government, I have nothing against Chinese people. They're just trying to feed thier families, like we are.

I will buy the appropriate tool/product I need, regardless of where it's made.

OR I can go broke much faster by being rightous and buy the most expensive product while the welfare fatties shop at Walmart and bury this country.

I love this country, but change will come when the 80% stupid people in this country wake up, not when the smart 20% complain on-line.

how's that for a mindless rant? :willy_nil But my point is how many here are actually DOING anything to chage this? I don't mean buying American, I mean political involvment.




By the way, I thought politics were not allowed on GJ?

I am new to the forum and did not know politics were not allowed. This thread has just sort of progressed into it. I expect if they are not allowed, the thread will be locked or deleted.
 

G1K

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You can't get to 100 people with out first having one and two, three etc. Similarly you can't get to 100% with out first starting somewhere.




Ryan
 

JCByrd24

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I just wanted to point out something that no one here has mentioned and also defend the purpose of this thread (which was to point out a good deal). Not everyone can afford to pay the price for american made quality, especially for tools, even if they wanted to. I know this seems may seem a stretch to some of you because you have plenty of money (some of the garages on this site look like showrooms). To give you some perspective. I live in Maine (a fairly poor state) and my fiance and I together make twice the average household income at 80K. We live in a 155K house (cape with unfinished upstairs), have 1 car payment on a 20K car, and are barely putting anything in savings because there isn't much left over...obviously there are details missing here, but the point is at least half the people I see on the street make less than half what I do and I think I'm barely getting by... this year banks have started loans for heating oil!!!....Sometimes its not a choice to buy Chinese or American, its the choice to buy Chinese or nothing at all. The distribution of wealth in this country is rediculous and trust me its not the poor people on welfare choosing to make it that way...most of them would kill to live in some of your garages. I don't have all the answers but I wanted to point out that there are a lot of people out there struggling to buy any tool, there is no way they can buy the best....and there is nothing they can do about it. This country as a whole needs all kinds of different reform and the people at the bottom aren't the ones calling the shots...
 

logical

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One thing people need to get past is the thinking that if it comes from China, it is automatically junk and/or made from inferior materials. A lot of it is now and much of it always will be. But the same used to said about Japanese cars...and at one time it was true. The US industry didn't take Toyota serious and look at things now. Same is happening all over again with Korean cars, although many I work with in the industry reccognize the threat they pose to US market share.

I have been to all of these countries, inside tool shops and manufacturing plants....and the homes of workers There is absolutely nothing stopping China-based companies from making the highest quality items you'd ever want. The technology is there (sure, stolen from us but still). Do you think they aren't smart enough to also steal the very best quality control processes? There is nothing stopping US companies from specifying high quality materials and processes for products the contract for build in China. It just isn't always done.

Now, the whole political-ecconomic-patriotic thing is a separate reason to buy US stuff. But be aware that not all "experts" see the huge import market here as a bad thing. Cheap goods make us all cash richer. Being richer allow us to spend more in local resturants, bars, gun ranges, gas stations, grocery stores, travel agents, paint stores, and have our 4-car/high lift door/epoxy floor/cable TV/heated and cooled/compressor equipped/T8 fixture lit/drain in the floor/lista cabneted garages. We may send the grunt jobs over there but we create importers, exporters, marketing, shipping, etc. jobs. I don't have the answer here but I do see that it isn't as simple as jobs moving overseas to companies making cheap junk. That would be a very foolish assumption to make.
 

REFLEXX

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gents,

you all raise some valid points. The dilemma is simple, we became the worlds superpower 9and best places to live) because the world bought our stuff.

That's no longer the case. SO where does that leave us?

I have a $100, if is spend it here, the next guy will buy something from me, the $100 keeps circulating here. If I spend $100 on chinese goods, approx $50 will NEVER come back.

Eventually we will be at zero and China will be the dominant superpower with EVERYONES money. What's to stop them? An evil communist war machine with everybody's money. I'm teaching my kids Chinese (just in case).

How can we stop this? We cannot. We did it to the world and got wealthy, they're just repeating a successful formula. What's the cost? Our way of life.

How do I know? Look what happened to Arnold in California. Finally a guy who was willing to change things for the better and he got shot down by the socialist leeches.

Too many parasites, not enough producers. The exact opposite of what made this country great.
 

logical

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REFLEXX said:
gents,

you all raise some valid points. The dilemma is simple, we became the worlds superpower 9and best places to live) because the world bought our stuff.

That's no longer the case. SO where does that leave us?

I have a $100, if is spend it here, the next guy will buy something from me, the $100 keeps circulating here. If I spend $100 on chinese goods, approx $50 will NEVER come back.

Eventually we will be at zero and China will be the dominant superpower with EVERYONES money. What's to stop them? An evil communist war machine with everybody's money. I'm teaching my kids Chinese (just in case).

How can we stop this? We cannot. We did it to the world and got wealthy, they're just repeating a successful formula. What's the cost? Our way of life.

How do I know? Look what happened to Arnold in California. Finally a guy who was willing to change things for the better and he got shot down by the socialist leeches.

Too many parasites, not enough producers. The exact opposite of what made this country great.

Exactly what period of this countries growth are you referring to when we became powerful because other countries bought our stuff. When exactly was the US even a huge exporter?.....Really, I'm asking you to explain this. And yes, I'm asking because i think your theory is all wet.

The $100/$50 example would be nice if it was even slightly correct from an economics standpoint.

Arnold in calif.? How do you make that leap?
 

MXtras

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My question is why doesn't the US Gov do something about the massive trade deficit? Why can we not limit imports to a reasonable level?

Such action would require two things - brains and balls. Neither are currently in stock in Washington.

Scott
 

eschoendorff

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Pete F. said:
Yeah, it's $13. If you had the choice of giving a friend/relative $13 or flushing the $13 down the toilet, which would you choose?

-Pete

This quote rings with me the most. If you read the company history on the Chnnellock website, I am sure that you will agree that this piece of Americana is valuable and is worth the few extra dollars to support. It would be a truly sad day if they were to go out of business. My .02. There is a lot of heritage - our heritage - there.


http://www.channellock.com/company/history.html
 

MXtras

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Edit - very interesting article by Channelock, by the way. Thanks for posting!

Look at what happened to Bridgeport when their patent finally expired in, what, 1977?

45+ years of machine building - with an absolutley incredible success rate - gone. Closed shop - sold to someone else (Hardinge). Thanks to knock-offs from other countries.

Scott
 

JeepOnRock

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Let's back up 30 years or so and look at the state of the world.

The auto industry was going to absolutely fail because of the cheap Japanese imports. There was no way that the US car builders could compete with the "cheap labor" from overseas. The steel industry was in the same boat (and the boat had a huge hole in the side). Even German labor was considered cheap, although because of tariffs and taxes, European cars were a bit more expensive.

Now, those countries build cars here because it's cheaper. What happened? Their standards of living went up. Some fat got cut from the system here. Efficiencies changed.

It is NEVER a good idea to "Buy American" (or German, or Japanese, or British, or anything else) just because. It rewards less efficient mechanisms and keeps them from changing.

Thirty-some years ago, GM built ****. Vegas rusted ON the showroom floor. Ford wasn't any better... just say Pinto. Chrysler, nothing really worth buying to keep. AMC... ROTFLMAO. Compare that to BMW building 2002 Tiis, and Datsun building 240Zs.

Now, GM builds a WORLD CLASS Vette, Ford builds a WORLD CLASS GT, and the Viper is equal to anything in the world as well. Jeep makes the best value in ******** 4x4s (Rubicon), while all of the big 3 are making other cars and trucks that leave us lusting. They still have staggering legacy costs, and face challenges, but they have been forced to compete with the best cars in the world... and do. It has made their product better.

Now, let's look at tools. As long as the US manufacturers fail to control their costs (through automation, design and other measures), and fail to reinvigorate their lines with new tools and accessories, they will suffer. If they freshen their products and build what people want, they can (and will) command a premium.

I want to point out a few things previously in the thread:
Bridgeport. OK, so after their patent expired, they had to fold and got bought out? Is that because they were undercut by foreign competition, or because they didn't bother to do any design work to make a better product? Come on! If you make the same thing, and don't take advantages in technology as it advances, you DESERVE to go out of business.
Someone mentioned being born in a Communist country. Look how well that whole protected market strategy worked for them. There were some GREAT cars coming out of the Communist block. People would stand in line for Trabants and Zils... not. Especially since they cost more than Volkswagons and Lincolns (respectively).
Lastly, about where will we get our stuff if we go to war with the countries that produce stuff cheap... we will design and manufactur it. The flip side of the question is where will they get the advanced design and manufacturing techniques we will develop? We still have more jobs coming IN to the country than going OUT of the country. And those jobs are the ones involved in designing the new products and processes. As long as we have the brains, we can re-tool and make better stuff. We can beat the old stuff with the new stuff we can design. They might have the tools, but they don't have the infrastructure to stay on the cutting edge.

Protected markets don't give any advantage to the company (OK, some short term advantages), the consumer, or the economy. Buying a less than superior tool, and/or paying a premium price, JUST because of where it is made just keeps the protected vendor from competing.

Sorry to be so long, but this is a topic that gets to me. That, and people tossing around the word "greed". Most people can't even come up with a definition that stands up to the least amount of scrutiny.
 

kartracer55

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 21, 2005
Messages
5,317
MXtras said:
My question is why doesn't the US Gov do something about the massive trade deficit? Why can we not limit imports to a reasonable level?

Such action would require two things - brains and balls. Neither are currently in stock in Washington.

Scott


2 words...

DIANE FEINSTEIN

the 27.5% bill had an unbelievable amount of support in congress buy both liberals and conservatives, until she came along and convinced everybody that it would be better to be hospitable to chinese government and work it out with talks instead of action. Ultimate scum bag... why did she do this? because her husband makes all of his filthy money off screwing the US because his firm does so much buisness in china. Economists estimate thier currency is undervalued between 15and 40%, so 27.4% is right in the middle. That would mean every good coming into the US would have a 27.5% tariff attatched to it.

For god sakes Im a 16 year old kid and I see exactly whats going on. It doesnt take much here people. We keep demanding low prices... low prices and china go hand in hand. Why pay 6.99 for a craftsman 1/2 wrench when i can get a chinese made one for 4.99? Who cares if an america only sees a dime of that... I saved 2$!!!!! Last year, walmart was responsible for 21 out of the 161 billion dollar US trade deficit with china(which Is why my family and many we know refuse to shop there) We have a 161 billion dollar deficit... that means each year we import 161 billion dollars in goods more than we export to china... Eventually we are going to tank. China has no intentions of "revaluing" thier currency, because it would have a dramatic effect on thier economy... Some people are simply too stupid to believe that. And dont start the bush bashing here, becaue it was that dope smoking jackass bill clinton that let them into the world trade organization to begin with.

For all of you still in denile, China is on its way to becoming the first world Mega Power... We would essentially become thier *****. They are BUYING the worlds largest army (they have to buy it to steal the design, we all know china cant engineer anything)

Its time for america to wake up. I have nothing against Chinese people, just the chinese government as a whole. Its unfortunate, but this is becoming a serious problem

All of you should be very nervous about this... It might not happen in your lifetime, but it would very well happen in your childrens. Everyday they are tightening thier grip on us, and we continue to buy our 13$ pliers. Yes, there might be alot I have to learn about "the value of a dollar" but even so, buying chinese tools is really not helping.

Im not completely Innocent of it... My IR impact was made in USA of foreign anddomestic componets, meaning it was assemblyed here, I also have chinese safety wire pliers because I could justify the price of USA made ones (8X as much), but other than that, my entire tool collection is USA made.

If you dont believe me research it on your own, maybe then you will see the actual magnitude of this problem. Were the most advanced miliary in the world, but even so, china wouldnt hesitate for a minute to use thier nuclear weapons on us, and all these fagget hippies would fip if we made the first strike... something that would be vital to the sucess of a war with china.. and rest assured, it would be an all out war, not a conflict.

Jim
 

RedRacer74

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
92
Location
New York
There was a show on the Learning Channel a while back about the state of workers in China. It was very interesting.

My wife's company has been forced for years to do manufacturing ( store fixtures ) in China due to many factors. One being the state of dealing with chrome plating and the EPA.

I myself obtained permits and variances for a company that was family owned for 100 years. They did chrome plating here on Long Island New York. They were forced out of business by the EPA and others due to fines and litigation. In the end it turned out that the contaminated soil plume was not caused by them. They still had the 7 million dollar fine and disruption to their business and the neighborhood. There were no homes around this 200ft. x 200ft. parcel when it was built and started and in the end homes popped up all around to abut it. They were good neighbors and nobody ever complained as they paid a lower value for their home because of it. Remember the phrase " Not in my backyard ". Now when they got the chance they all came out against it.

The old man died before I could obtain the final approval's. His son said he was smiling down on us when we did get them. Unfortunately 1 year later they closed their doors for good.

Ever have a chassis acid dipped ? I had to go all the way to Allentown Pa for that, wonder why ? Local zoning laws banning such business's and the EPA.

Don't get me wrong I am for GREEN but we have driven this industry out of the US.

I avoid Home Depot, Lowes, Walmarts etc. as they have driven my mom and pop clients out of business and into working with a vest in a strip mall. This is why small towns have vacant stores and turn into ghost towns ( yes even in the big suburbs ). Smarter small business's have formed buying cooperatives and can now compete with the big guy's. Ever seen a Natiowide Warrantee on a trans. from a small shop ( same idea ) to compete with the big guy's.
Just my 5 cents......
 

KeukaDan

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Joined
Jan 5, 2006
Messages
143
Location
Finger Lakes Region of NY
JeepOnRock said it beautifully. Most people jump on the "Buy American" bandwagon with good intentions but they don’t really know or understand the economics of it. For years American manufacturers have sat by thinking that they had nothing to fear. Many companies didn’t do R&D to develop newer products and newer manufacturing techniques. This is why companies go out of business when their patents run out. In my field I have read and done work on numerous patents both current and expired. The purpose of a patent is to allow a company to have protection for 20 years on their invention. If you want to be a successful company and last past 20 years you need to make patentable changes that makes people want your product more. If you can revise the way your product is manufactured and get a new patent on it then you will again be protected by your new innovation.

If you want to "buy American" that is fine but don’t try and say that you can only "buy American" Anyone who says that they only buy tools from the USA should look into where the parts came from, where the raw materials came from, and where the equipment to manufacture that item came from. The US imports far more raw steel than it exports so even if it was made here that doesn’t make it all US. I support American manufacturing, and when possible I buy American tools, but I don’t buy them because they are made in America, I buy them because they are best for the job. I wont go out and buy an inferior product because it came from the US, I also wont buy an overpriced item when I can get a comparable item cheaper.
 

Doug

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Joined
Dec 20, 2005
Messages
152
Location
Salisbury, NC
Organized labor is also to blame for some of this. I cant see why I should pay grossly inflated prices for goods (cars come immediately to mind) because some loser on the assembly line gets twice what his/her job is worth. Most larger goods you buy are moved by union trucks somewhere along the line, which means that new couch you just unwittingly overpaid for helped to pay the salary of a truckdriver who has so little backbone that he has to gang up with his fellow employess to ask for a raise. I hear you guys above when you say to (and I paraphrase) "do the American thing and buy American". That's all well and good, but the union people aren't doing the "American thing" by robbing all of us in one way or another. These unionists are looking out for #1, and the hell with everybody else. Well, I'm also looking out for #1, and if it means I have to go overseas to get the most bang for my buck, then that's the way it's going to be.

My opinions on this are strong, and after re-reading what I've written above it may sound like I've got a bone to pick with labor. Not so, just strong opinions. I own a business and have been at it for just about 30 years. At one time I had enough employees for the union to come in (although it never came close to happening) and if they wanted to unionize I would have let them. I would have then locked the door and quit.

Doug
 

REFLEXX

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Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
913
Location
Riverside, CA
kartracer,

you're only 16? In that case, I still have hope for our youth! very impressive. "we're gonna be China's *****" <---right on!

Guys! In a perfect world, China wouldn't be a threat. The problem is that they are cheating and you'll never win a fair game against cheaters.

AND our governemt is helping them do it by being in the Chinese' pockets and enforcing draconian laws (as show above).
 

kartracer55

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 21, 2005
Messages
5,317
REFLEXX said:
kartracer,

you're only 16? In that case, I still have hope for our youth! very impressive. "we're gonna be China's *****" <---right on!

Guys! In a perfect world, China wouldn't be a threat. The problem is that they are cheating and you'll never win a fair game against cheaters.

AND our governemt is helping them do it by being in the Chinese' pockets and enforcing draconian laws (as show above).


yup... how old did ya think I was?!?!?!? :lol:

Somebody up ^^^^ there brought up a good point, which reminded me of something else. China cant invent nor can they engineer ANYTHING to save thier lives. Id venture to guess that 95% of all items tool or machine related coming out of china today were designed outside of china. Id say 4 out of the 5% of the remaining items engineered there were reverse engineered, which is a big problem for american companies. You can try to tell me about patents, but the sad truth is the majority of those companies dont give a damn. Why else does half the **** coming out of there look the same as stuff made here? Proto J190 safety wire pliers look identical to the ones I got from HF... I mean IDENTICAL... Ive got 1$ that says the protos were designed first!


Now heres the million dollar question... How do we stop this cycle? Some may say there is no way. I, for one, am 100% in favor of the tariff on chinese goods. Yes, it would raise the cost of almost everything we buy, BUT it would be an incentive for many companies to begin making thier items here. I also think the Us government should impose fines on walmart for importing so many things from there. We need to get serious here. On top of the 27.5% tarrif, Introduce an additional tarriff that would offset the difference between the average US textile workers wage and the average chinese textile workers wage... And impost this tarriff on the companies importing these goods. This would accomplish three things; 1, it would send a little extra cash towards the Government(always welcome) 2, it would be a great incentive to bring manufacturing back into the US... If labor here vs there is the same, and the tarriffs are imposed, it might be cheaper to make the stuff here and 3, it would make chinese textiles MORE EXPENSIVE than US made goods.

On a side note, the government should also step in on Union activity. Im neither Pro nor Anti union... somewhere in the middle, as they have thier place, but both of my parents are corperate, Non union, which some may say has an affect on my views. A Danaher Owned tool plant in springfield Massachusets is scheduled to close. This plant was foudned in 1890 as Moore drop forge, later Easco, then Bough by Danaher in 1990... many craftsman tools are made thier. Danaher is trying to sell tools in a market full of imports... they are movign thier production to other areas of the United states (north carolina I believe) which will save them 7 million dollars a year, 5.7 million of that in Benifets and pensions. Unions are clearly demanding too much from thier companies. Im all for American Made as you guys know, but even so, Many unions abuse thier power, and it in turn is handed down to the consumer... Many seem to have the "its not my job, you have to pay him to do that" attitude, which is killing us. Look what the united auto workers union has done to Ford and GM... Like a big ball and chain. People complain about Gm's Current quality and how they import parts from different places, but the truth is it is the union to blame...they demand such insane wages and benifets that companies are forced to import things to remain afloat.

*puts flack jacket on*


Jim
 

MarkH

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 19, 2005
Messages
1,353
Location
Kansas
By the time you add the other costs of making something overseas, it becomes just as expensive as it is made here at a well designed plant. The other problem is companies get bigger and the MBO types who do at times do not even have an idea how things are made get in charge. A number do not have the desire and sometimes the skills to run the manufacturing side. So the product gets outsourced and the quality drops since that is the specs to keep the price down since at the same quality it would cost the same. China is training its people to manufacture we are training ours to spend.

The other point is at what price do people shop. I have seen multiple times that 10 cents on a 5 dollar product makes the difference for most people. I tried both and found the 10 cents extra saved me every year. But that is not what the retailer wants, he wants someone to come back all of those extra times to get more junk. Three at 4.90 is more income than two at $5.00.

The Chinese do think that the size they have will keep them from the same problems multiple Asian countries ran into. Not properly floating their currency. Many parts of Asia that were supposed to wipe our economy out in the last 2 decades have suffered a very hard depression to recession because their government made that choice. I also know a number of US investors that lost big on that bet also. So the next few years may be interesting as the cost of outsourcing goes up. I think that for the companies that are willing to do it rural sourcing in the USA will be a good bet. When a good house is under $100,000 and you have a 3 minute commute in rush second, you just do not need as much money to have a good life.
 
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